Etiquette question regarding landing fees

Doug: really? That story needs to go onto Airnav for that signature location. with the date of the trip. That's cruel - Sig is usually pretty decent toward lifeguard and angels . . .

I supposed if an airport has a landing fee you can always just do a low approach . . .

I landed at SMO - never got a bill. Another guy I know got billed for 5 flights he never made there - so go figure. Its not a 'tax' so you can dispute it without paying it. I feel for the guy who got my bill and wondering why he was getting a bill from SMO.
 
Seriously, I'm not sure if they really did get away with it. There was a thread on the Red Board about Bedford and their fees. A few folks posted that they got bills from Bedford after calling the tower to transition their airspace.

I never landed at Bedford myself and don't really intend to. They sound like a bunch of donkey holes up there.

I'm not sure how I ended up with a bill from MassDOT for BEDFORD but I did. And I didn't even land there! A small landing fee seems reasonable but the $18 bill I got for just being close really gets me. It took a few weeks but they cleared the bill.
I'm surprised that with so many lawyers flying, this hasn't become a class action suit by now.
 
The only airport I paid a fee at was Avalon (private airport), and that went away when I based my plane there (also got me night privileges) for $75 a month. Everywhere else I've always managed to schmooze out of them.
 
Seriously, I'm not sure if they really did get away with it. There was a thread on the Red Board about Bedford and their fees. A few folks posted that they got bills from Bedford after calling the tower to transition their airspace.

I never landed at Bedford myself and don't really intend to. They sound like a bunch of donkey holes up there.

Well, it is Massachusettes...:D BTW, I have never paid a fee at a Signature or any other jet center FBO and manage to even negotiate fuel price to within a quarter or so of the best regional rate, even got hangared over night at one and nitrogen for a strut (I put it in) for free. For all I've heard, I can't complain about em....:dunno:
 
And this is why my N number is 2" high and under my horizontal stab.

Be careful when stating your full N number, any yahoo can go run it, pull the address and name it's registered under (and any other aircraft under that name or addy), if someone wants to pay the small paper shuffle fee they can also get all FAA records on that N number, including copies of any bill of sale.

If I land somewhere to overnight, I'll pay a FAIR landing fee, if it's a PUBLIC funded airport fair=VERY small, if I dont like the fee I'm not going to land there, if no fee is mentioned by NOTAM, AFD, etc then it depends on my mood and the services offered, otherwise I'm out and they are SOL.
 
My training airport is "great" when it comes to fees. For non-field aircraft, it's $15 to land, $10 to park if you are there for more than 2 hours. No touch and goes (they want to collect the fees), and they have no problem taking their electric car and putting it right in front of taxiing plane to collect. And it's not like it's a big airport. Has one runway, no facilities of any kind (bathroom and vending machine), no FBOs on field. Nothing. And field's uncontrolled.

I avoided this twice when I did my XCs there, by giving them a field based tail number. I do not mind paying reasonable fee, but this is crazy.
 
My training airport is "great" when it comes to fees. For non-field aircraft, it's $15 to land, $10 to park if you are there for more than 2 hours. No touch and goes (they want to collect the fees), and they have no problem taking their electric car and putting it right in front of taxiing plane to collect. And it's not like it's a big airport. Has one runway, no facilities of any kind (bathroom and vending machine), no FBOs on field. Nothing. And field's uncontrolled.

I avoided this twice when I did my XCs there, by giving them a field based tail number. I do not mind paying reasonable fee, but this is crazy.
[noob question alert] Honest question: They can prevent you from doing touch and goes?
 
[noob question alert] Honest question: They can prevent you from doing touch and goes?
They can probably yell at you on a radio. The no touch and goes is written in AFD. They require either prior approval or that you are based on the field. And few times I tried to get them on a radio to ask permission for touch and go, I never heard a reply. But they are very quick to get on the radio to tell you to stop and pay the fee.
 
They can probably yell at you on a radio. The no touch and goes is written in AFD. They require either prior approval or that you are based on the field. And few times I tried to get them on a radio to ask permission for touch and go, I never heard a reply. But they are very quick to get on the radio to tell you to stop and pay the fee.
Friendly bunch there, huh? :lol:
 
I stopped at Luray the other day, and while there was no fee, I bought something from the FBO.

Landing fees are silly, and I've been nervous to do a lot of XCs for fear of being billed a landing fee. Although, it seems like it would just be a couple of bucks. So, I would recover from it.

I'd hate to get a call from my rental place saying I owe them hundreds of dollars because I did touch and goes at a random airport.
 
Friendly bunch there, huh? :lol:

Yep. I love driving there to hang out with my CFI and his buddies, but I hate flying there. My CFI has his own hanger there, and plenty of space to park 3-4 planes next to it. But they force you to park at transient ramp even if they've seen you there hundreds of times. It's not even security related, since yesterday me and a friend were basically 5 feet from runway edge taking pics, and their little electric car drove by without even looking at us.
 
Doug: really? That story needs to go onto Airnav for that signature location. with the date of the trip. That's cruel - Sig is usually pretty decent toward lifeguard and angels . . .

It's been a few years ago now, but yes, really.

It was Signature in Las Vegas, and at the time, there were two primary FBO's; one building was called The Executive Terminal, and the other was labeled with a sign calling it "The Executive Terminal." Signature was in one, and other FBO's changed hands in the other. At the time it was Atlantic, I believe.

I was sent to the Signature FBO; it was a client request, who apparently mistook the name on the building for the name of the facility; when I arrived, I noted the mistake, but had already shut one engine down. I confirmed it with the dispatch and client, and attempted to reposition the Learjet to the actual Executive Terminal.

I had an organ on board, conducting an organ transfer, and couldn't accept a delay. I had arrived using the lifeguard call sign, and Signature knew this. I advised the FBO of the reason for the reposition, and asked them to move the fuel truck that they parked in front of me upon arrival. I was told in no uncertain terms that the truck would remain there until I shut down and came inside to pay the ramp fee. Only then would I be allowed to move the aircraft.

On another occasion on the east coast, in a fractional aircraft, I asked for the hangar overnight, and was promised a spot in the hangar. When I arrived the next day, the aircraft was left outside, and was covered in a thick layer of ice. I couldn't get the doors open. This one wasn't a medical flight, and in fact was only a reposition of the aircraft from the east coast to the west. Never the less, it took over eight hours to get out of Signature. They wouldn't tow the aircraft to a deice pad. They wouldn't do anything about it on the ramp, and it was stuck out in BFE (beyond Egypt).

The guy behind the desk finally told me he had a device for deicing, and that I was welcome to use that. He sent a girl to the women's rest room, and she returned with a hair dryer. I asked him what I was supposed to do with the hair dryer, and he said I could use it to melt the ice. I asked him how I was supposed to power the hair dryer, and he said I could use an outlet at the hangar. I asked him to tow the airplane over there, and he refused, saying that that service was only for people who rented the hangar.

At the same time I had a raft on board that was a rental for some oceanic flying, that needed to be returned. I asked the FBO if they could ship the raft, and they agreed. We made the arrangements. A week later I was contacted by the fractional company, and by the raft rental facility, demanding to know where the raft was. Apparently it was still sitting at Signature, who claimed it had been dumped in their lobby and left behind.

Whether it's the trips to any Signature when a particular resident fractional was having it's labor disputes, that made any visit to Signature a misery, the poor service, or the begrudging unprofessional behavior, or even the way one can't get to one's aircraft on the ramp at places like San Fransisco without an escort, I really don't like Signature. They monopolize and specialize in putting FBO's at locations where there's little or no competition, and charge through the nose. They offer less than stellar service, and it changes very much depending on what one's flying. Show up in a GIV, and get good service. Show up in a Hawker or Learjet, and get treated like dirt. I've waited an hour for simple things like ice, papers and coffee, or haven't had them when approaching departure time...they're busy servicing everyone else, but I had to leave the FBO to go get my own. As I'm taxiing out, I get a call advising that the ice, coffee, and papers will be right out...and I reply that we're taxiing out, and that I had to get my own, thanks for nothing. Sorry...we'll try harder next time.

Won't be a next time, folks. Hate you, won't see you later. Give that bad of service, even the lowly pilot can vote with his wings and take the client elsewhere next time.
 
Not to mention that only in crowded multi-state areas do toll roads really do well with the voters and normal folk. We have exactly one here, most folk are POed that Arab investors own it. And anyone from outside the Metro area avoids it.

You folks who choose to live where it's completely overcrowded have interesting views on what folks think who have some space to breathe. I could care less about toll roads, they're not necessary here. HOV and Lexus Lanes **** me off too. We all built the highway, just add a lane and everyone sits in traffic like everyone else.

Around here most of the HOV lanes are used to make it look like our god-awful city bus system could run on time if they even tried. It takes almost two hours to go 20 miles across this city by public transport. And the most obvious public transport, needed now since DIA opened, is of course, a train to the airport, but it's been blocked by the cab Unions here for the entire time. Maybe rightly so, without airport runs this city wouldn't have any cabs. The economics would never support them.

From my experience when I lived in the Denver area 30 years ago, RTD stands for "Reason to drive". Sounds like that hasn't changed.
 
In aviation, it is very often you can't find another convenient airport. And in most cases, the airport gets nothing in return for your use of its expensive facilities unless you pay a landing fee, so it's not like you're giving them any business.

The only thing i've been able to do is complain on airnav haha
 
I remember Hughes Aviation in Vegas, now there was a great FBO... with hookers...:rofl:
 
From my experience when I lived in the Denver area 30 years ago, RTD stands for "Reason to drive". Sounds like that hasn't changed.

Nope, it's just costing more and more in mil levies... not showing any signs of better service or working any better than it ever has. The only difference now is the trains, and those are only servicing very specific areas, of course. Lots of drunken suburbanites don't drive now, since they can go from south suburbia to the various stadiums, so I guess that's a positive thing... if you don't count the hundreds of millions the whole thing is in the hole, money-wise. :)
 
If it was something less reasonable like $50 or even $25, I just wouldn't go there.

Higher fees are used to keep traffic out that they don't want. They don't want a Skyhawk with a $200 fuel bill taking up valuable ramp space that the corp jet with the 4 figure fuel bill, plus catering will pay.
 
Buffalo NY, crappiest FBO at a major airport like that, charges $120 for a VLJ to taxi through and drop off a person.

There is supposed to be a public pad that is free of ramp fees, but the FBO removed the signs so no one knows where this pad is.

Oh, we get dinged for this ramp fee, and were a tenant with another airplane in their hangar.

Avoid Prior aviation at all costs.
 
The people defending landing fees on here give exactly the same arguments as those who defend landing fees in Europe. The only difference is the amount. In the Netherlands, where I flew for the last four years, the cheapest landing fee was $30 and most were considerably more; these are at small GA fields, some grass. Of course, all airfields are controlled, and you're not allowed to land outside their limited opening hours, too.

Be careful what you're willing to accept or you might end up like that - and GA in Europe is in a sad, sad way. Want to pay $300 an hour for a non-descript C172M? Then just keep going the European way...
 
I understand ramp fees, but landing fees are getting out of control. How is someone expected to learn to fly if they have to pay $10.00 a landing or whatever other amount it is getting pushed up to.
 
All this talk of $2 and $5 and $10 landing and ramp fees has me thinking about the push for GA user fees. I would NOT want to pay $100 every time I flew. I can't even begin to imagine the exodus of pilots and potential students that would happen if this was ever enacted in to law.

edit - I was not aware of this:
The proposed $100 per flight fee would generate an estimated $11 billion over 10 years, reducing the deficit and more equitably sharing the cost of air traffic services across the aviation user community. All piston aircraft, military aircraft, public aircraft, air ambulances, aircraft operating outside of controlled airspace, and Canada-to-Canada flights would be exempted.
https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/response/why-we-need-aviation-user-fees
 
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Since when can someone block an aircraft with an engine running - or even not running. Isn't there a federal law to prevent interference with any aircraft? A quick call to 911 would fix that but quick I think.
 
Since when can someone block an aircraft with an engine running - or even not running. Isn't there a federal law to prevent interference with any aircraft? A quick call to 911 would fix that but quick I think.

Since always. It's not illegal to prevent movement of an aircraft, whether it's locking the prop down or parking something in front of it. Particularly on their ramp. It's very poor form, especially when the aircraft involved is a lifeguard carrying a vital organ, but it's legal.

Calling 911 would just make one look stupid.
 
Since always. It's not illegal to prevent movement of an aircraft, whether it's locking the prop down or parking something in front of it. Particularly on their ramp. It's very poor form, especially when the aircraft involved is a lifeguard carrying a vital organ, but it's legal.

Calling 911 would just make one look stupid.
True, but I bet a local reporter would love to run with a story like that. Nothing talks louder to a company than bad press.
 
91.11
Prohibition on interference with crewmembers.
No person may assault, threaten, intimidate, or interfere with a crewmember in the performance of the crewmember's duties aboard an aircraft being operated.

Then there are the commerce laws...
 
91.11
Prohibition on interference with crewmembers.
No person may assault, threaten, intimidate, or interfere with a crewmember in the performance of the crewmember's duties aboard an aircraft being operated.

After arriving on the leased property of the FBO, on their ramp, and shutting down an engine, one would be hard pressed to show that the FBO assaulted, threatened, or intimidated a crew member by parking a fuel truck in front of the aircraft.

Remember that it's their lease. You choose to park there. They can choose where to park their truck.

As far as interference, you'll be hard pressed to make the case of interfering with a crew member. If your assertion is that the FBO interfered by preventing the crew member from doing what he or she wanted, remember that it's not legal do whatever you want, whenever you want to do it. Try crossing the hold bars to an active runway when the stop bars are illuminated. Try taxiing without permission down the active runway. Try crossing into the Secure Identification Display area at the airport, without an ID. Then try cruising through all the private hangar leases at the airport, simply because you are a crew member and feel you have the right to go where ever you please and do as you like.

Won't work.

As someone noted, the FBO technically could impose a lien, and can take steps to prevent your leaving. They could put a wheel block or prop lock on your aircraft. They have the option of charging ramp fee or waiving it for your fuel purchase.

I don't like that position with FBO's. I am not obligated to buy merchandise or pay a fee for walking in the door at most retail stores: they pay a lease and I can walk in or out of their door as I like, without buying their products; the same should hold true at the local FBO. A FBO which makes a practice of raping the customer for no good reason, on the pretext that they're paying the least, is a bad business ethic and not a place I care to frequent. Consequently, I don't like going to Signature. They're overpriced, have poor customer service, and treat their clients like garbage.

I know a flight engineer who used an onboard sat phone several times to report interference with a crew member. On each occasion, the aircraft was surrounded by law enforcement upon landing. On each occasion the "interference" was the flight engineer being told to watch himself, being told something he didn't want to hear. His response was to pull the interference card. Talk about overreaction.

True, but I bet a local reporter would love to run with a story like that. Nothing talks louder to a company than bad press.

That would be fine if it was a decision of my employer at the time. What would my employer have gained? The employer's ONLY interest was to see that the organ reached the recipient at the airport, period. That done, the employers focus turned to the next flight, and the one after that. Dwelling on who-done-us-wrong was a luxury for people who didn't have emergency operations to attend, and a busy dinner plate. It certainly wasn't my place to call the press and wage war against a large national chain of FBO's over one incident, acting outside my own chain of command. That wouldn't have been appropriate at all.

It's a little like spraying a field. When starting into the field, the most important thing in the world are the power lines; if one doesn't get past them, nothing else matters. So, they become the focus. The world revolves around those power lines, The moment they pass under the wing, they're let go, forgotten, and the ground becomes paramount. Nothing matters more than the ground. It's a big deal. Level, flying down the field, the standpipe half-way down is critical. Fail to get the wing over that standpipe, and no more wife, no more kids, no more taxes. Once past the standpipe, one is fascinated by the power lines at the other end of the field, again. Each object is crucial, life-altering, the most important thing in the world, until it's handled. It's not forgotten: one needs to remember those things when one comes back again, but they're out of sight and out of mind until that time.

Going to signature is the same way. They're on the bottom of my list for FBO's, and they did the wrong thing more than once. I often haven't had the final word in where the flight begins or terminates; that's an employer decision and a client decision. When I do have the choice, I don't use signature. Their decision to park a fuel truck in front of me was a ****-poor choice, and wreaked of unprofessionalism. None the less, once the truck was gone, my focus was getting the client, the organ, to the proper hands. Once that was done, my focus was on getting the aircraft back to it's home base to be ready for the next patient, period. We handle, and we move on. Aviation is like that. If we take time to cry over spilt milk or haunt those who offended us, we waste time that we really need to spend doing something else.
 
That would be fine if it was a decision of my employer at the time. What would my employer have gained? The employer's ONLY interest was to see that the organ reached the recipient at the airport, period. That done, the employers focus turned to the next flight, and the one after that. Dwelling on who-done-us-wrong was a luxury for people who didn't have emergency operations to attend, and a busy dinner plate. It certainly wasn't my place to call the press and wage war against a large national chain of FBO's over one incident, acting outside my own chain of command. That wouldn't have been appropriate at all.

It's a little like spraying a field. When starting into the field, the most important thing in the world are the power lines; if one doesn't get past them, nothing else matters. So, they become the focus. The world revolves around those power lines, The moment they pass under the wing, they're let go, forgotten, and the ground becomes paramount. Nothing matters more than the ground. It's a big deal. Level, flying down the field, the standpipe half-way down is critical. Fail to get the wing over that standpipe, and no more wife, no more kids, no more taxes. Once past the standpipe, one is fascinated by the power lines at the other end of the field, again. Each object is crucial, life-altering, the most important thing in the world, until it's handled. It's not forgotten: one needs to remember those things when one comes back again, but they're out of sight and out of mind until that time.

Going to signature is the same way. They're on the bottom of my list for FBO's, and they did the wrong thing more than once. I often haven't had the final word in where the flight begins or terminates; that's an employer decision and a client decision. When I do have the choice, I don't use signature. Their decision to park a fuel truck in front of me was a ****-poor choice, and wreaked of unprofessionalism. None the less, once the truck was gone, my focus was getting the client, the organ, to the proper hands. Once that was done, my focus was on getting the aircraft back to it's home base to be ready for the next patient, period. We handle, and we move on. Aviation is like that. If we take time to cry over spilt milk or haunt those who offended us, we waste time that we really need to spend doing something else.
I can certainly understand the need to focus on the task at hand. Like you say, nothing else matters if you don't execute the immediate task properly. But as you rise up in the chain of command, each position is focused more and more away from task to strategy. Somewhere up the chain someone should have recognized that this could have placed a patient in jeopardy and caused the loss of a valuable organ. Nothing happened that time, other than some raising of blood pressure and loss of a few minutes, but if Murphy had been on board, something might have happened. And it could still happen to another pilot with another urgent cargo under another set of critical time constraints and maybe this time the window of opportunity is missed and the patient dies or the cargo exceeds it's viability.

So I'm not saying that it should have been you to "do something", but someone in your chain of command has the responsibility to remove exactly this kind of roadblock from the picture.
 
I suspect that in the worst-case scenario, we'd have notified the client to come to the other end of the field to pick up the organ there, so no loss of life (one would hope).

The company made it a point to never use signature again.
 
Since when can someone block an aircraft with an engine running - or even not running. Isn't there a federal law to prevent interference with any aircraft? A quick call to 911 would fix that but quick I think.

All I can say if someone did that to me is 'duck', because they're about to become the victim of a prop strike.
 
Probably not an issue with the Learjet.

I could probably have given someone a nasty bruise on the thigh with the radome, though.
 
I suspect that in the worst-case scenario, we'd have notified the client to come to the other end of the field to pick up the organ there, so no loss of life (one would hope).

The company made it a point to never use signature again.

Sometimes you only have minutes with an organ.

Making phone calls, getting instructions....... Is eating precious time.

A flight begins when an aircraft moves under its own power and ends when the last engine is shut down ("rest after landing", seeing as stopping at a taxiway doesn't stop the clock, the aircraft must be at rest, ie no longer running)

One still running..... Is interfearing with a flight in progress.......
 
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As someone noted, the FBO technically could impose a lien, and can take steps to prevent your leaving. They could put a wheel block or prop lock on your aircraft.

Maybe, no, no, and no.

Possibly they could get a lien for an unpaid bill. Depends on circumstances. If the bill is a fee or fuel purchase (no significant labor involved) then a lien may be more difficult to obtain. For small claims about all they can get is a judgment in their favor.

No, the FBO cannot prevent a person from leaving their establishment. There are laws against that.

At most they might get an aircraft held by court order. They certainly can't legally put any type of lock on it without a court order.
 
Maybe, no, no, and no.

Possibly they could get a lien for an unpaid bill. Depends on circumstances. If the bill is a fee or fuel purchase (no significant labor involved) then a lien may be more difficult to obtain. For small claims about all they can get is a judgment in their favor.

No, the FBO cannot prevent a person from leaving their establishment. There are laws against that.

At most they might get an aircraft held by court order. They certainly can't legally put any type of lock on it without a court order.

And even then 'they' will not put the lock on, the US Marshal or designated custodian (which he will have to pay for) are the ones to do it.
 
And even then 'they' will not put the lock on, the US Marshal or designated custodian (which he will have to pay for) are the ones to do it.

And a lock is doubtful. Usually just a seal would be applied.

Wanna go to jail, break one of those seals without permission...(get the permission in writing)
 
And a lock is doubtful. Usually just a seal would be applied.

Wanna go to jail, break one of those seals without permission...(get the permission in writing)

True, normally I just fly it to a secured facility, but sometimes if the plane was too big a piece of junk to pass a preflight I'd toss a prop lock on. The Marshals would put the sticker on and then hand me the custodial paperwork work form I'd sign and take responsibility from there.
 
Sometimes you only have minutes with an organ.

On television, perhaps. If one only has minutes, then one isn't making an interstate transfer by aircraft. Those take more than minutes.

I've flown a lot of heart teams, and carried a lot of tissue, parts, hearts, organs, skin, grafts, samples, etc, on time-critical missions...but none of them have involved minutes of viability, and nobody runs. It's orderly.

At most they might get an aircraft held by court order. They certainly can't legally put any type of lock on it without a court order.

They can block the ramp, park the truck, and yes, I've seen aircraft with prop locks on and other devices preventing movement of the aircraft by airport and city authorities and through the FBO.
 
They can block the ramp, park the truck, and yes, I've seen aircraft with prop locks on and other devices preventing movement of the aircraft by airport and city authorities and through the FBO.

Perhaps you think an aircraft was held without a court order. That thinking would be incorrect. There are circumstances under which an aircraft can be held without a court order but they are specific to criminal matters, not civil.

As for blocking a ramp, that certainly could be considered a criminal act if it was meant to illegally detain someone. In other words, just because you've seen something done does not make it legal.
 
On television, perhaps. If one only has minutes, then one isn't making an interstate transfer by aircraft. Those take more than minutes.

I've flown a lot of heart teams, and carried a lot of tissue, parts, hearts, organs, skin, grafts, samples, etc, on time-critical missions...but none of them have involved minutes of viability, and nobody runs. It's orderly.



They can block the ramp, park the truck, and yes, I've seen aircraft with prop locks on and other devices preventing movement of the aircraft by airport and city authorities and through the FBO.

Regardless, IMHO blocking a still running airplane to extract a ramp fee is blatently illegal. If that action in the mind of the surgeon delayed the organ implant long enough to effect its viability, now thats a civil suit, all for a ramp fee.

Why use "lifeguard" if there is no time restriction? Just so up whenever.

Hour delay here, long walk there, few phone calls in between. Who cares. Its only hollywood stuff. Hearts on ice, its all good. :rolleyes:
 
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Alright guys, whatever you say. I only did it for a living; it involved me, not you.

You're the armchair experts, so have at it. Done.
 
As for blocking a ramp, that certainly could be considered a criminal act if it was meant to illegally detain someone. In other words, just because you've seen something done does not make it legal.

Not a lawyer, but I guess they can counter that claim that nothing is stopping you from popping the door open and walking away.
 
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