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Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Anymouse, Mar 10, 2019.
The world is not in a vacuum....they have the internets over there.
So after they brought the throttles down when they came back up they forgot which engine was TU? Too heavy to fly on two?
There's a great article posted on AW&ST this morning, "The Boeing 737 MAX MCAS Explained." Unfortunately, it's behind the paywall.
The bottom line is the last photo in the article provided by Collins Aerospace showing both the yoke-mounted electric trim switches and the STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches, and the following explanation.
With 40* flaps and the gear down, yes.
Probably better than ours. But FAA is a US agency, do foreign agencies issue their own versions of an AD? Or do they forward ADs from the FAA? I know that foreign agencies grounded those 737 MAX before FAA did, so they did that much on their own. I guess each foreign agency has its own "in" with manufacturer's when making decisions like that. Probably Boeing is required to notify all the other agencies it deals with, just like FAA, and they all make their own decisions. FAA issued that AD on how to handle a suspected MCAS problem, but did other agencies do the same? I dunno.
Y'know, after having the stick shaker on for two hours, having to be rescued by a jumpseater, and other failures, maybe the previous crew should have... I dunno... SAID something?!?!?
Well, there you go. Thanks for posting that. I've swung (swang?) back Tantalum's way.
You'd hope that anyone operating a given airplane with a given engine type would sign up for the free FAA AD distribution. I get all of them, which can be from zero to ten every single day. Many fewer if you just choose the equipment that your airline operates. Some are downright silly, some are really big deals. Of course, that's only my opinion—it could be that a certain operator was on the list, did get the memo, and did distribute it to their pilots. If there is no point at which we can trust the pilots to gather all information necessary for safe flight, then we should eliminate them.
Yes some of the things being left out of the hysteria are Lion Air's culpability in ignoring a maintenance issue and using an aircraft that shouldn't have been in the air. Then there is the question of whether the Ethiopian Air pilots had ever read that AD because you'd think they would have immediately drawn a correlation and thought "hey, this is exactly what they were talking about"
I posted the flight manual changes resulting from the emergency AD back in November. Any 737 MAX pilot who wasn't aware of this by the time of the Ethiopian 302 crash shouldn't have been flying them.
As far as I can tell, there has been no mention whatsoever in the press about this AD. I didn't know it existed.
I'm not going to defend Boeing. The single AoA input driving a system that directly affects the primary flight controls in the manner it does is nuts, as was the fact the MCAS wasn't part of the instructions for differential training.
If this were the case then surely it would be easy to show correlation between automation, specifically envelope protection systems, and an increase in accidents.
So let's see it.
and his snipe hunt
The pilots should have known better. But so should Boeing. A single failure mode on something that controls 2.5 degrees of elevator at a time? Definitely a design failure.
But the question remains, how come the jump seat pilot on the Lion Air flight the day previous to the accident flight knew what do when the crew flying did not nor the crew of the accident flight???
Not saying that's not a good question. But I'm also saying that it is a worthy question to ask Boeing why they thought that a single failure mode that could fly the plane into the ground was acceptable.
That's the issue--it doesn't fly the aircraft into the ground. By following the existing procedure, i.e., flip the cutoff switches, just like the Lion jump seat pilot stated, it doesn't fly into the ground.
This just in: the guy was praying instead of flying the plane
A doctor friend tells me "Almost every treatment has a side effect. The goal is for the side effects to be less severe than the original problem."
Envelope protection is kind of the same. It is generally better than no envelope protection, but sometimes...
Got a link to the news story? I just browsed some of the likely suspects and didn't find anything.
Uhhh... Because he said allahu Akbar moments before the plane smacked into the ground instead of "oh ****." Doesn't scream criminal to me.
Both the captain and the FO were in their twenties. You have to wonder just how experienced and mature they were. I know as a low time pilot in my early twenties I thought I knew it all and in retrospect did some really dumb and risky things.
The same could be said for most any major system on an airplane. Landing gear, fuel, engines, brakes, hydraulics... They make most part 121 flights a lot better, but sometimes they really mess things up and it gets even worse if they're mishandled. Want to leave any of them behind?
who presses to test
if I started talkin to my imaginary friend instead of pressing the trim disconnect button before plane crash that would be criminal
Makes no difference if he said Lord Xenu is great, or that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is great.. if people want to believe in a higher power to give them a moral compass or whatever that's fine, but that stuff has no place in a professional working cockpit.
A mystic hand is not going to come down and save your life, even if you believe in this stuff then its very own writings state that we have free will and the ability to guide our own fate
Why give up? Die fighting
Why can’t one do both?
fair enough, I acknowledge that the way I think may be different than others. If I got to a point where I was desperate enough to have to start praying (not unreasonable if you're expecting to die) then that would indicate that I've given up
One thing if I'm alone, but if I have over 100 people behind me.. then really??
I digress. Pardon. it is just crazy to me that the solution to avoid this was so simple.. who knows, maybe it is all Boeing's fault for not training this more properly.. but what does that say about basic airman (person) judgment and commercial aviation
You also should consider that the words uttered aren't much different the saying "Oh, God" or "Jesus Christ" in the midst of an impending catastrophic situation. It need not be a specif prayer or sign of resignation regarding the current situation. There's a religious/cultural aspect to it which may have been an innate vocalization of the stress while still fighting to recover. Difficult to say what will come out of one's mouth when the most dire of consequences is staring you in the face. Hope to never have to find out what I might say myself.
I was just thinking what I might utter myself. Someone here recently posted a list of the last words recorded from cockpit recorders.. quite morbid.. but philosophically thought provoking
here's more information around the Lion Air accident that describes the systems....note the comments below the article.
The noted AD was published last year....Nov 7, 2018.
Word is that the NTSB, and other key U.S. players have not been provided details from the flight & voice recorders yet? Seems to me if you wanted to get to the root causes, you would let those well versed in investigations in on the specifics?
well....this lil tid bit from Bloomberg is interesting....
I will concede that the brake/throttle interrupt on cars probably lowers accident levels. Doesn't mean I have to like it though.
Maybe he’ll plead guilty and avoid a lengthy trial.
Hmmm ... a lack of training on the 737 MAX sim
Cliff Notes version: its unclear whether these pilots trained in an NG sim that didn't simulate MCAS failures, or a MAX simulator that doesn't simulate MCAS failures.
Thanks for the post, civil discussion is indeed good. Definite value in checklists, we use SWI (standard work instructions) in our place of work for largely the same reason.. sure it's not life or death but costs, quality, and turn time improvement. However, my thing with checklists you touched on here:
..and that's where some people fail the Tantalum litmus test.
Oh Brother! The fact that you are challenging and mocking what a man did and prayed in the last SECONDS of his life is ridiculous. Have some empathy.
I'm sure plenty of praying has happened in cockpits, including Alan Shepard's prayer.
But I think it should be limited to the cockpit:
...the Captain asked everyone to remain seated and announced the plane would return to Perth.
“He said ‘I hope you all say a prayer, I’ll be saying a prayer too and let’s hope we all get back home safely’,” ...
Nobody knows exactly what these guys were dealing with here. Probably a lot of confusing and conflicting information such as attitude and airspeed disagree, stick shaker, aural warnings, flashing lights and only a minute to figure it out. If the MCAS does have a single failure point there's also then the fact that there have apparently been two failures on virtually brand new aircraft within a few months of each other so there's that on top of everything else to consider. It would seem that there were a lot of weak links in this chain, not just one.
and we know that the flight before the Lion Air accident....was able to disable the system and safely fly the aircraft. The next crew....not so much.