Estimate for hours to install new windows on a C-182

DKirkpatrick

DKirkpatrick

Pre-takeoff checklist
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DKirkpatrick
Anyone have a thumb in the breeze of the number of hours to expect to install all new windows on a 1968 Cessna 182? Thanks
 
thanks — sounds like maybe "the voice of experience" ??!
 
Cessnas are a lot more involved than Pipers. With Cessnas, you have to remove a lot more interior trim pieces and a lot of rivets. And something else, that two whole days estimate was with three people.
 
DKirkpatrick said:
Anyone have a thumb in the breeze of the number of hours to expect to install all new windows on a 1968 Cessna 182? Thanks
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All the windows? the doors too?
Took me all of a week to change out the 170's 5 pieces
 
Last year the paint shop charged me for 16 hours to replace the windshields in my Cherokee 140.
 
Depending on the experience of the A&P, it could be 2 days for 2 people just to do the front windscreen. It is a PITA.
 
The Cessna windshield is retained by a curved strip of aluminum around the lower front edge. All the rivets have to be drilled out of it, the windshield removed, and some mechanics will also removed the top aft strip as well as it makes it easier to insert the new windshield without breaking it. Now, drilling out rivets means that the shop heads fall where they may and can drop into avionics and bus bars and the like and cause expensive headaches, and bucking new rivets can cause enough mechanical shock that avionics can be damaged, so sometimes it's wise to take the slide-out stuff out. And getting at the rivets under the glareshield to buck them is no fun, either, unless you're a 100-pound contortionist. Not enough of those in arcraft maintenance. Most of us are too fat and too stiff to easily get in there. Glovebox and instruments are all in the way. too.

And that's just the windshield. Rear side windows aren't too bad but it means taking the plastic interior out, and many of those pieces are aged and brittle and turn to crumbs when you start moving them.

No fun at all, and whatever they charge isn't enough.
 
Dan Thomas said:
And getting at the rivets under the glareshield to buck them is no fun, either
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I have never heard of anyone installing a new windshield on a Cessna with rivets. Ever. Can't even remember the last time I've seen anything other than screws and nuts.
 
Rivets. Lots of rivets. That applies to windscreen and side windows. Remove interior. Lots of drilling rivets out. Lots of bucking new rivets in. Reinstall interior. Lots of touch-up paint.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Now, drilling out rivets means that the shop heads fall where they may and can drop into avionics .
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What? the rivet heads are on the outside of the aircraft. How do they get into the radios?

And by pulling a couple instruments you can clean the mess up and re-install all the rivets.
Takes two people.
 
tyndall said:
I have never heard of anyone installing a new windshield on a Cessna with rivets. Ever. Can't even remember the last time I've seen anything other than screws and nuts.
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#6 screws with lock nuts. Still takes some maneuvering to get to all the spots.

I have done several Cheyenne windshields that are screws and nuts, plus with the added fun of PRC added in, so you can't stop and have to push through or else the sealant cures.

The openable windows are a bit tricky too. Double countersunk #3 rivets hold the retainer in. Don't overdrive them, or something will crack.
 
Tom-D said:
What? the rivet heads are on the outside of the aircraft. How do they get into the radios?

And by pulling a couple instruments you can clean the mess up and re-install all the rivets.
Takes two people.
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I think he means the rivet tail.
 
Just did all windows in my 182P.

For the love of all that holy, DO NOT removed the lower valance for install the front windscreen. Follow the Cessna service manual which is estimated at 8-9 hours. The other method is closer to 35 hours.

Cut the old windscreen laterally across the middle, and persist it our with your feet from the pilots chairs as-per the Cessna maintenance manual. Snap the new one in the top and lay the bottom front on outside the lower valance. Check for fitment and trim. Follow remainder of service manual to complete installation.

If an A&P say "remove the valance" or "use the old window as a template" RUN like heck and find some one who knows what they are doing.

Also buy Great Lakes Aero products as they need nearly no trimming. The quality is that good.
 
NordicDave said:
If an A&P say "remove the valance" or "use the old window as a template" RUN like heck and find some one who knows what they are doing.
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Those of us that do know how to replace windows, do remove the lower strip first then take the window out whole.
Then clean all the old sealant, rivet holes, and any other repairs we need to do then set the new window properly on a clean surface. Great Lakes do make good products.
 
Tom-D said:
Those of us that do know how to replace windows, do remove the lower strip first then take the window out whole.
Then clean all the old sealant, rivet holes, and any other repairs we need to do then set the new window properly on a clean surface. Great Lakes do make good products.
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The paint shop on my field never removes the lower valance, and follows the Cessna 182 Service manual procedure. They put new windows in Cessnas every month. It's a fraction of the hours required to replace. My A&P also uses the Service manual approach. And showed me while replacing my windows. I was surprised how much easier it was, and did not need to repaint.

There are alternatives to the Service manual. The service manual approach works great and saves ~30 hours of labor. Why turn a $1000 job into a $4000 job.
 
My lower windshield strip came out when I changed mine. I also removed the center strap which requires adding a new channel to the inside at the top. Fitting issues are at the wing roots, and that’s better done with the lower strip removed. My wing root fairings needed trimming, too. It’s a much easier job for somebody who’s done it before, and not an easy job for an unfamiliar newbie. You’ll never have a better opportunity to replace your glare shield covering if that needs to be done. Side windows require drilling out the rivets and those also hold the channels the interior terminates to. That’s why the interior has to come out. Reassembly is another two person job.

Micro paint dabbers make painting rivet heads quick and easy. You won’t know the rivets were replaced.
http://www.automotivetouchup.com/store/accessories/micro-dabbers-100.aspx
 
Tom-D said:
What? the rivet heads are on the outside of the aircraft. How do they get into the radios?
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Screen-Shot-2016-01-20-at-11.31.35-AM.png
 
Drilling out and replacing the lower valance is a 30+ hour job. Most shops are charging $80-$120 per hour. The FAA average is $85 per hour.

The job can be shortened a few hours if Cherry Max pop rivets are used instead of bucking new standard rivets. The Cherry Max's look horrible and must be individually sealed to prevent leaks. They are also a b*tch to remove later.

Like Dan said above, metal falls into the Av stack and harnesses; and requires A&P to mess with the avionics wiring to reach up to the underside of valance to buck new rivets or put screws and nuts back instead. Not many old Av stacks appreciate their wire looms being brushed moved so much.

There is a logical impulse to remove the lower valance, but it's not what Cessna recommends. I'd read the Cessna Service manual for the recommended procedure and talk with a few paint shops who do windows as a routine repair.
 
NordicDave said:
The job can be shortened a few hours if Cherry Max pop rivets are used instead of bucking new standard rivets.
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You should read the Cessna structural repair manual. Cherry Max are not allowed to fill a whole row anywhere on the aircraft.
The factory drove the solids, so can you.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Screen-Shot-2016-01-20-at-11.31.35-AM.png
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You didn't know the head of the rivet is on the outside of the aircraft, and we remove it, rather than the buck tail?
Only an uneducated sloppy mechanic would not protect the area prior to working.
 
NordicDave said:
For the love of all that holy, DO NOT removed the lower valance for install the front windscreen. Follow the Cessna service manual<snip>
If an A&P say "remove the valance" or "use the old window as a template" RUN like heck and find some one who knows what they are doing.
Click to expand...
NordicDave said:
The paint shop on my field never removes the lower valance, and follows the Cessna 182 Service manual procedure. They put new windows in Cessnas every month. It's a fraction of the hours required to replace. My A&P also uses the Service manual approach. And showed me while replacing my windows. I was surprised how much easier it was, and did not need to repaint.
Click to expand...
NordicDave said:
There is a logical impulse to remove the lower valance, but it's not what Cessna recommends. I'd read the Cessna Service manual for the recommended procedure and talk with a few paint shops who do windows as a routine repair.
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Hmmm. Let's see what this Cessna 182 Service manual procedure says...
3-10. REMOVAL.
a. Drill out rivets securing front retainer strip.
b. Remove wing fairings over windshield edges.
NOTE Remove and tape compass clear of work area. Do not disconnect electrical wiring.
c. Pull windshield straight forward, out of side and top retainers. Remove top retainer if necessary.

3-11. INSTALLATION.
a. Apply felt strip and sealing compound or sealing tape to all edges of windshield to prevent leaks.
b. Reverse steps in preceding paragraph for installation.
c. When installing a new windshield, check fit and carefully file or grind away excess plastic.
d. Use care not to crack windshield when installing. If not previously removed, top retainer may be removed if necessary. Starting at upper corner and gradually working windshield into position is recommended.

NOTE Screws and self-locking nuts may be used instead of rivets which fasten front retaining strip to cowl deck. If at least No. 6 screws are used, no loss of strength will result.

Could you please point out where it says to not drill out and remove the lower strip? I'm having a hard time finding it.
 
Tom-D said:
You didn't know the head of the rivet is on the outside of the aircraft, and we remove it, rather than the buck tail?
Only an uneducated sloppy mechanic would not protect the area prior to working.
Click to expand...

The "shop head" is the formal name for the bucktail. Look at the picture.

One can apply duct tape over the row of shop heads and use a drill stop set up pretty short so that the drill removes only enough to get the manufactured head off and release the shop head. The tape will come off with all the shop heads stuck to it. Of course, getting tape to stick to an old surface contaminated with the remnants of glue and fiberglass insulation might be a challenge.
 
Dan Thomas said:
The "shop head" is the formal name for the bucktail. Look at the picture.

One can apply duct tape over the row of shop heads and use a drill stop set up pretty short so that the drill removes only enough to get the manufactured head off and release the shop head. The tape will come off with all the shop heads stuck to it. Of course, getting tape to stick to an old surface contaminated with the remnants of glue and fiberglass insulation might be a challenge.
Click to expand...

You’ll likely need to tap some of the rivet bodies through with a drift, too.
 
Dan Thomas said:
The "shop head" is the formal name for the bucktail. Look at the picture.

One can apply duct tape over the row of shop heads and use a drill stop set up pretty short so that the drill removes only enough to get the manufactured head off and release the shop head. The tape will come off with all the shop heads stuck to it. Of course, getting tape to stick to an old surface contaminated with the remnants of glue and fiberglass insulation might be a challenge.
Click to expand...
Or simply use the proper tool.. a rivet removal tool. And If driven correctly the bucktail will not simply fall out, or be pulled out by tape.
They were known as bucktails long before some one devised a new name for them. New era A&Ps need not use a different language.
 
"Or simply use the proper tool.. a rivet removaltool. "

Isn't that a 3/32 or 1/8 drill bit? That is what I use, with a drill stop. A good bit is half the work.
 
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