Establishing salary

LoneAspen said:
To me, a counteroffer is too little, too late. I shouldn't have to threaten to walk out the door to be paid what I'm worth. It also doesn't solve the real problem of why I think people leave. It's not necessarily for more money (although that's part of it, to be sure), it's because they weren't recognized and rewarded in a timely fashion.
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+1

Nicely said. There are reasons for looking and accepting a new job.
 
You're putting the cart before the horse. The potential employer can't discuss salary until they know how good a fit you are. That requires an interview.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I don't like wasting time so when I get a call and hear
"We have a position that looks like a good fit"
My first question is: "What is the rate?"

First, do you do that? I assume most people probably do because it saves everyone time. :dunno:
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Perhaps your line of work is different than mine, but I never discuss money until after I have decided to hire someone. If someone asks me that right out of the box on the phone, I try to politely end the call as soon as possible. If you hang up on me first, that is a good thing. I have too many applicants to deal with people that are only in it for the money. You have to have a desire for the job too and be willing to prove yourself.

Unless the jobs you are applying for are such that any person can do an equal job, and personality never enters into the equation (you don't have to work with customers or fellow employees) then by asking for "rate" up front is probably going to get you a low rate quote. It is harder for an employer to come down from that if you are a marginally warm body than it is to go up if you impress the hell out of him and he really doesn't want to lose you. Which one are you?
 
Most large companies with recruiting offices will ask your pay expectations on the first screening. They have no interest in wasting your time or theirs and will get it out of the way quickly. Smaller mom and pop shops tend to save that for later conversations. I think it's good to get it out of the way early, if we aren't in the same ballpark what's the use of talking.

In my last two moves I combined my full comp (bonuses+salary) and told the recruiter that's what I needed. I was undervalued so I figured it wouldn't be too far off base. In both cases I got what I asked for, even negotiated a signing bonus for the second move that put me at 100% increase in total comp in 3 years. Partially this was because I was building time in previous positions and understood that the company started me cheap with no experience. The next few moves I cashed in on that experience and converted it to coin.

Another thing, don't ever count out an interview just because you don't hear back immediately. The last company I was at took 6 months to negotiate me leaving, and my recent move was back to the first company I was at and way underpaid. Their HR had a fit with the 100% increase but hey they called me...lol.
 
LoneAspen said:
I made myself a promise years ago that I would never accept a counteroffer, and in almost 30 years of IT work, I never have.

To me, a counteroffer is too little, too late. I shouldn't have to threaten to walk out the door to be paid what I'm worth. It also doesn't solve the real problem of why I think people leave. It's not necessarily for more money (although that's part of it, to be sure), it's because they weren't recognized and rewarded in a timely fashion.
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This is exactly where I am at most of the time. I likely wouldn't leave a job because I was paid too little, unless it was way out of line. but - I have to enjoy life, including work. I look forward to working for my current people almost every day. The fact it pays well is fine, but working where you have no control, and are not respected or at least recognized once in a while is stultifying.

It's easy for me to go into an interview with absolutely no salary expectation, and certainly no demands. I know what I'm worth, I can express to any competent hiring group that they want me. As for wasting time at an interview, I never got that. It's not 'my job', the job belongs to them, and if they want to spend time with me, then I want to spend time with them. My time is not important in the grand scheme of things if they are willing to give me a job we should all spend time together and make sure it's a good fit, even if the money may not work out.

When I was younger, I used to have kind of an attitude, then I started seeing things from the other side of the table, and it was an eye opener. People coming in, with demands, and minimums, and all that 'respect this' stuff. It was off-putting, so I changed my way of seeing things, and I started backing off on the money stuff. Frankly, it works amazingly well. If an employer asks first I honestly tell them 'I have no salary expectation, demands or requirements. Pay what you think I'm worth.' It's their time not mine, I'm just lucky to be there at all.
 
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docmirror said:
My prev job, about 10 years back I took because I liked the work a lot, and the pay was average or a bit low. After being there for 6 months, they started shedding engineers, and I got to take on double what I was first hired for. The company was making out real well on me. Now, generally I'm all for the free market program, and I agreed to work there, and they and I agreed on a salary given the conditions. About 4 months in, they got rid of one of my best associates, and hired a jack-banana whom I interviewed and rejected. I warned them that it was a mistake, but I didn't have veto power, just tech interview. I warned them it wouldn't work in the clearest terms without threatening.

They didn't listen, so I went on two interviews, and gave notice the following monday. The VP of ops called me and said my paycheck would be significantly higher next pay period. They gave me a 22% bump, and thought I would stay. When I didn't retract my notice, they got angry, and I went back to my emails where I warned them not to get rid of my good guy and replace him with a mouth-breather. They offered to give me another 15% if I would stay. Nope, a decision is a decision. My new job paid as much as their upper limit, and the work is even better.

Some places know how to retain people and some don't care. My short stint with EMC years ago was quite entertaining.
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Never take a counteroffer. The always take your decision to depart personally. But if they cut you it's not personal, it's business.
 
paflyer said:
Were you ever able to take it?
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Good question and a good point.
I tend to have a week or two that rolls over the next year which we are required to use by first quarter. Once I am up against a time where I will lose it, I tend to take the time off. I have never used an allotted year's vacation in a single year though.
 
Bryan, there have been one or two other threads about dealing with recruiters but I'll keep this to salary issues. First my firm has hired secretarial help and an associate attorney, never someone in your industry.

That said, our very first assistant who we hired perhaps 17 years ago came in and off the bat told us what she needed. We agreed and that was the end. When she left after probably 10 years we had to go looking for another assistant. All of our ads would say "Salary negotiable and dependent upon experience" What a mistake that was. We got people asking for a lot less than we would pay and a lot more than were willing to pay. It was a game that IMHO did not get an employer / employee relationship off to a good start.

Fast forward what we do now is when we post a job listing we post a salary range and we find it helpful in narrowing our search.

I think It would be appropriate for you to ask what the salary "range" is for the position. If a candidate called me and said what does the position pay, I'd be hesitant to give a set figure but would give a range. A lot can be gained in face to face interviews.

As for what to ask for a salary, well my sister who is an incredibly successful career coach and has a consulting company that does executive development for major Corporations and Universities says don't be afraid to ask what you are worth. Leaving a few thousand dollars on the table can add up over time. Also psychologically an employer will likely have more respect for your worth if you shoot higher and negotiate. Best of luck.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Good question and a good point.
I tend to have a week or two that rolls over the next year which we are required to use by first quarter. Once I am up against a time where I will lose it, I tend to take the time off. I have never used an allotted year's vacation in a single year though.
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Why not?
 
Henning said:
Why not?
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My work piles up when I am not here.
for better or worse, I am the only one that can do my job.

Well, the ships still run and cargo delivered but my personal deliverables wait for me.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Good question and a good point.
I tend to have a week or two that rolls over the next year which we are required to use by first quarter. Once I am up against a time where I will lose it, I tend to take the time off. I have never used an allotted year's vacation in a single year though.
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If you're pushing the use into the first 4 weeks of the next year and doing the same the following year then you are taking an allotted year's vacation in a single year. Your accounting is just slid backward on the scale...
 
AdamZ said:
Bryan, there have been one or two other threads about dealing with recruiters but I'll keep this to salary issues. First my firm has hired secretarial help and an associate attorney, never someone in your industry.

That said, our very first assistant who we hired perhaps 17 years ago came in and off the bat told us what she needed. We agreed and that was the end. When she left after probably 10 years we had to go looking for another assistant. All of our ads would say "Salary negotiable and dependent upon experience" What a mistake that was. We got people asking for a lot less than we would pay and a lot more than were willing to pay. It was a game that IMHO did not get an employer / employee relationship off to a good start.

Fast forward what we do now is when we post a job listing we post a salary range and we find it helpful in narrowing our search.

I think It would be appropriate for you to ask what the salary "range" is for the position. If a candidate called me and said what does the position pay, I'd be hesitant to give a set figure but would give a range. A lot can be gained in face to face interviews.

As for what to ask for a salary, well my sister who is an incredibly successful career coach and has a consulting company that does executive development for major Corporations and Universities says don't be afraid to ask what you are worth. Leaving a few thousand dollars on the table can add up over time. Also psychologically an employer will likely have more respect for your worth if you shoot higher and negotiate. Best of luck.
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Good point, and I should clarify this. I can only think of maybe 2 times in my career when I was contacted by a company as a direct hire.
99% or more are recruiters contacting me. If someone called me and said "I am bob at Sears and I am the hiring manager and we have a position", I would play it straight but that practically never happens.

And yesterday when the CFO interview me I actually gave him a range. I said my target is between X and Y

In I.T. here anyway, I think all of the companies go through 3rd parties now. At my company we outsource that as well. Our devs know what the rate is long before we interview them.

But yes, to clarify and reiterate I would never ask a hiring manager straight out what the pay is. I re read my initial post and realize I didn't clarify this at all.
 
JHW said:
You're putting the cart before the horse. The potential employer can't discuss salary until they know how good a fit you are. That requires an interview.
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In all of the tech jobs I've ever interviewed for, this is not true. There's usually a salary range the company is willing to pay. If you're a great fit in every way, you might make Y. If you fit the bill, but maybe require some training to get up to speed, you may only earn X. But the company knows they're going to pay somewhere between X and Y for this position. If you're interviewing for the position and need at least Z to pay the bills, it saves everyone a lot of time and energy to get that disconnect out of the way up front.

That said, I don't mind hearing about an opportunity if I think there's a chance that I'm a good fit and the job would be fun and/or challenging. I've interviewed for positions where, after the third in-person interview, I still wasn't able to get salary range information from the company. When they called me for my fourth in-person, I told them that I'd be happy to come in as long as I knew I wasn't wasting my time doing so. They refused to share range information and I told them thanks, but no thanks. A buddy later took a job with that company and explained that the salary sucked, but the potential bonuses were supposed to be great. He never saw one, though, despite being one of those guys I'd snap up in a heartbeat if I started my own company.
 
If they haven't already set a range, I take my current salary and add 20% as a starting number.
 
Seriously though, I am with you, they should tell you up front what the position is worth to them, if they ask you what you want, tell them what you want, don't try to help them out by giving a range, if someone gave me a range I would always bias my offer toward the bottom of their range. A new employer can't verify your last position, so feel free to inflate beyond what you were making, just don't price yourself out of a job. Also keep in mind that the job you interview for may not be the one you are eventually offered. This used to happen all the time when we were hiring, someone would respond for an advertised position and would be better suited somewhere else, you never know.
 
paflyer said:
You've obviously not worked in a corporate environment.
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I did for a few weeks, wasn't something that was suitable. I did a lot of 'working over' in the oil field, but still, never to that little time off.
 
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paflyer said:
Were you ever able to take it?
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yeah, a few years ago I got an anniversary pin and a 3rd week of vacation. I'd never used the 2 weeks up till then. I don't get the notion that you have to take vacation to have a "balance". I like my job. The only time it's unpleasant is when I come back after being away from it.
 
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