Establishing salary

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

May the force be with you
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First Officer 6PC
So I am going on interviews frequently which is a good feeling.

When we were young and entering the work world we (I anyway) were taught to never bring up money and to wait for the interviewer to bring it up.

I don't like wasting time so when I get a call and hear
"We have a position that looks like a good fit"
My first question is: "What is the rate?"

First, do you do that? I assume most people probably do because it saves everyone time. :dunno:


I had 2 interesting things happen to me this week.
Someone contacted me about a job. I asked the rate and they said "That would be a great thing for us to discuss in person" So I just said "No thank you"

I get a follow up email saying "Do you have any friends that would be interested in this job with a fortune 500 company that was voted one of the best companies to work for?" I almost emailed her back saying they probably would be if they had some idea about the pay range, but I clicked delete instead of send.

The other thing is I had some companies doing phone screens and I left my notebook at the office. It had notes with regard to whom I had spoken and details.

Turns out I go to an interview this evening and the guy goes "Oh I see we haven't discussed salary." I panicked. I was afraid I was going to have spent the last hour talking to these people and it was going to be peanuts and we would all feel like our time is wasted.

He asks what I am seeking. I have no idea how to answer this question (I have been below market for about 5 years so not sure where to place myself this go round). I kinda threw out what I want and watched his face for a reaction. He just said "that's reasonable". The interview carried on quite a bit longer which I also think is a good sign.

How do others handle this situation? I am a huge proponent of not wasting other peoples time (except with lengthy posts on POA) so I feel pay should be established first because it is the quickest filter for both parties. The majority of job postings do not include even a range.

I wish this part of job hunting was easier.
It is like browsing plane ads. Put the price in the description.
 
One more micro rant.

I am not a developer but I used to be. I got a call from a woman w/ a developer position.

I said "I don't do that anymore"
She goes "Well we entered your resume into a program and it picks the best job for you based on terms it finds."

I said "Yep, I used to be a developer so there are lots of words on it with regard to that and I don't want to go back and alter history"

She actually starts to argue that their system is really good at determining good job matches and I should consider this dev position.
I just wanted to shake her and tell her to read the damn thing. My title is in the page header.
 
I am also interviewing right now, and questions of pay are always touchy. Some people are still old school and feel it should never be brought up until the point an offer is made. I think times have changed and it shouldn't be off limits. As you said, you don't want to waste their time as much as you don't want to waste your time.

I was lucky in that the position I am interviewing for right now, the recruiter asked me on the phone what I made and what I was looking for, and her response was "Ok that's good, I think we are all in the same ballpark when it comes to that". Alleviated me from asking myself :)

I hate recruiters that don't listen to you. They are just looking for their cut. Thankfully the recruiter I am dealing with is an internal recruiter to the company, no commission.

Good luck to ya!

-Brian
 
Easy for me, I tell them I will work for them for free for 3 months if they like me, then they can keep me. I never ever give them a number. The closest thing I will say is my past year's salary which I can prove via tax statements.

The last two job interviews I went on the offer letter is the first time I saw the pay. Each case was higher than I would have asked for.

However, I don't think that will work for you.
 
I would insist on your coming in for a personal interview. Check you out, personal appearance, dress, listen to you speak more, more about your qualifications, before I mentioned salary. I think any really good company would want to hire this way. Then if this person thinks your a fit, they will send you on to the person who actually makes the decision. If he or she feels you have a lot to offer, they really want you, they will pay you well. If you had an attitude, I'd politely tell you to beat it.
 
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docmirror said:
Easy for me, I tell them I will work for them for free for 3 months if they like me, then they can keep me. I never ever give them a number. The closest thing I will say is my past year's salary which I can prove via tax statements.

The last two job interviews I went on the offer letter is the first time I saw the pay. Each case was higher than I would have asked for.

However, I don't think that will work for you.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I am not working for free for any amount of months.
I don't know what you do (I suspect some sort of male stripper)
In my role all that stuff has to be established up front.
 
I've left a few jobs because of pay. I've also kept a job that I hated... because of pay.

I let them bring it up.
 
my first few jobs out of college I was happy if they gave me a chair to sit in. now that I have good, solid experience, I'm mostly in the drivers seat as far as salary goes. you WILL NOT get it if you don't ASK FOR IT. don't be cocky about it, but tell them why they can't afford NOT to pay you $xxx for the experience you will bring to them both immediately as well as after the short time it will take you to learn their processes/procedures. of course you have to know the market and the company, but REFUSE to suggest they pay less than you should be paid for the job PLUS for your experience. In IT, the ONLY way to make (significantly) more money is to change companies, but you have to ASK for it.

if you have the skillz that pay the billz, ASK FOR the MONEY!! you only have one chance to ask for it, NOW. once u have the job, good luck asking for a (significant) raise.

seriously, ask for the money, you may just be surprised.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Yeah, I am not working for free for any amount of months.
I don't know what you do (I suspect some sort of male stripper)
In my role all that stuff has to be established up front.
Click to expand...

They call me 'tripod'.
 
The first thing I ask is, "What is it you would like me to do for you?" Then I ask a few questions so I can gauge if they are a person I want to work for. I don't discuss money until I have determined I can fulfill their needs, and they are someone I want to work for. If at that point it sounds interesting and they want to talk in person, I say fine, and I bill my time and expenses for the meet up. Normally I am on their program that or the next day having come to an agreement on compensation.

Conversely, when I am hiring crew, and the first thing a person asks about is pay, they have already lost the opportunity.

I operate in a different market than you though, so common courtesy may not apply in your position.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I would insist on your coming in for a personal interview. Check you out, personal appearance, dress, listen to you speak more, more about your qualifications, before I mentioned salary. I think any really good company would want to hire this way. Then if this person thinks your a fit, they will send you on to the person who actually makes the decision. If he or she feels you have a lot to offer, they really want you, they will pay you well. If you had an attitude, I'd politely tell you to beat it.
Click to expand...

I get that but I did once do two phone screens and then go to the face to face and they said the position pays X which happened to be 56% less than I was earning at the time. They had inflated their wish list to the point it exceeded their budget. They weren't going to get what they wanted for what they could afford. That was actually the point where I started asking directly.
 
docmirror said:
They call me 'tripod'.
Click to expand...

Oh s#it. I have heard of you! You are legendary in these parts.
Before you mentioned your name, I thought you were just a male stripper.

How is the fluffing business going :goofy:
 
Henning said:
The first thing I ask is, "What is it you would like me to do for you?" Then I ask a few questions so I can gauge if they are a person I want to work for. I don't discuss money until I have determined I can fulfill their needs, and they are someone I want to work for. If at that point it sounds interesting and they want to talk in person, I say fine, and I bill my time and expenses for the meet up. Normally I am on their program that or the next day having come to an agreement on compensation.

Conversely, when I am hiring crew, and the first thing a person asks about is pay, they have already lost the opportunity.

I operate in a different market than you though, so common courtesy may not apply in your position.
Click to expand...

I suspect it is a volume thing.
I literally have close to 30 emails just from today that are from 3rd party recruiters. (and actually probably half are automated so those can be ignored) I would guess there are fewer of you than there are of me and fewer positions doing what you do.

If I was ultra specialized and seeking very specific roles I think the process would be more formal.

Also salaries are widely varied in IT. I don't know about your market.

If I interviewed you on the phone and then face to face and then gave you an offer letter of 30k you would probably wonder where the breakdown occurred.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
I've left a few jobs because of pay. I've also kept a job that I hated... because of pay.

I let them bring it up.
Click to expand...

Not sure I follow. I get the latter but not the "left a few" part.
You took the offer but then after decided it was not enough?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I suspect it is a volume thing.
I literally have close to 30 emails just from today that are from 3rd party recruiters. (and actually probably half are automated so those can be ignored) I would guess there are fewer of you than there are of me and fewer positions doing what you do.

If I was ultra specialized and seeking very specific roles I think the process would be more formal.

Also salaries are widely varied in IT. I don't know about your market.

If I interviewed you on the phone and then face to face and then gave you an offer letter of 30k you would probably wonder where the breakdown occurred.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I don't deal with recruiters. I deal either with the owner/primary directly, or their broker gets the process started. When people are calling me, they typically have an immediate/emergency need. One of the things I need to figure out is why are they in a bind. That determines if I want to work for them.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Oh s#it. I have heard of you! You are legendary in these parts.
Before you mentioned your name, I thought you were just a male stripper.

How is the fluffing business going :goofy:
Click to expand...

I don't work your side. :yikes:

Now, if you wanna compare equipment, or salary - just let me know.
 
It depends if you live in an area or have such a valuable skill set where you can pick and choose then sure why not no sense in wasting anyone's time.

Generally speaking unless you are in a position of power your best bet is not to ask and wait till they bring it up.

In the case of where I work we tend to pay under market (there are some special circumstances) so we often will tell people right up front the range so we don't waste time for either party.
 
On the hiring side, we ask about salary requirements before bringing folks in. Same reason - we want to make sure we're in the same ballpark.

When I was interviewing for my position, I had an idea of where pay would be. When I was asked, I said I'd be happy at x, thrilled at y and a little disappointed at z. I was offered x...and was happy. :)
 
DFH65 said:
It depends if you live in an area or have such a valuable skill set where you can pick and choose then sure why not no sense in wasting anyone's time.

Generally speaking unless you are in a position of power your best bet is not to ask and wait till they bring it up.

In the case of where I work we tend to pay under market (there are some special circumstances) so we often will tell people right up front the range so we don't waste time for either party.
Click to expand...

My current company is a bit dishonest.
I was a contractor and content.

They offered me a conversion to perm which I turned down because the pay was too low. My boss says "But you are in the 18% bonus band".

So I converted. After a year, I asked for a raise. My boss said they haven't given raises on the last 5 years. I then brought up the bonus and he stated they hadn't paid out bonuses in 6 years. :(

I stayed because the benefits were outstanding. A couple years later I again asked for a raise and my boss pretty much said "It is no secret that we are below average. That is the main reason for the benefits and those benefits are the reason most people stick around"

I liked the work though.
 
My prev job, about 10 years back I took because I liked the work a lot, and the pay was average or a bit low. After being there for 6 months, they started shedding engineers, and I got to take on double what I was first hired for. The company was making out real well on me. Now, generally I'm all for the free market program, and I agreed to work there, and they and I agreed on a salary given the conditions. About 4 months in, they got rid of one of my best associates, and hired a jack-banana whom I interviewed and rejected. I warned them that it was a mistake, but I didn't have veto power, just tech interview. I warned them it wouldn't work in the clearest terms without threatening.

They didn't listen, so I went on two interviews, and gave notice the following monday. The VP of ops called me and said my paycheck would be significantly higher next pay period. They gave me a 22% bump, and thought I would stay. When I didn't retract my notice, they got angry, and I went back to my emails where I warned them not to get rid of my good guy and replace him with a mouth-breather. They offered to give me another 15% if I would stay. Nope, a decision is a decision. My new job paid as much as their upper limit, and the work is even better.

Some places know how to retain people and some don't care. My short stint with EMC years ago was quite entertaining.
 
Sam D said:
On the hiring side, we ask about salary requirements before bringing folks in. Same reason - we want to make sure we're in the same ballpark.

When I was interviewing for my position, I had an idea of where pay would be. When I was asked, I said I'd be happy at x, thrilled at y and a little disappointed at z. I was offered x...and was happy. :)
Click to expand...

This is a pet peeve of mine, tell me what you are offering, don't ask what I want. I answer with "$1MM a year with a 10% bonus at the completion of the job or end of the year, and a 10% raise. So, now that you know what I want, what are you offering?"
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Not sure I follow. I get the latter but not the "left a few" part.
You took the offer but then after decided it was not enough?
Click to expand...

Initially, it was fine. As I moved up in the companies with significantly more responsibilities, I was made promises that never came into effect (e.g. "When you complete training for the new position, we will raise your pay X amount.").

It was more like a couple of jobs, not a few. I really enjoyed them, too.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
My current company is a bit dishonest.
I was a contractor and content.

They offered me a conversion to perm which I turned down because the pay was too low. My boss says "But you are in the 18% bonus band".

So I converted. After a year, I asked for a raise. My boss said they haven't given raises on the last 5 years. I then brought up the bonus and he stated they hadn't paid out bonuses in 6 years. :(

I stayed because the benefits were outstanding. A couple years later I again asked for a raise and my boss pretty much said "It is no secret that we are below average. That is the main reason for the benefits and those benefits are the reason most people stick around"

I liked the work though.
Click to expand...
Why didn't you convert back?
 
Henning said:
Heck, even in the US the worst schedule I had was 28/14.;)
Click to expand...

I want your job.

In corporate America most people are lucky to get 2 weeks and generally it is accrued. For x amount of days worked, you earn so many days off.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
So I am going on interviews frequently which is a good feeling.

When we were young and entering the work world we (I anyway) were taught to never bring up money and to wait for the interviewer to bring it up.

I don't like wasting time so when I get a call and hear
"We have a position that looks like a good fit"
My first question is: "What is the rate?"

First, do you do that? I assume most people probably do because it saves everyone time. :dunno:


I had 2 interesting things happen to me this week.
Someone contacted me about a job. I asked the rate and they said "That would be a great thing for us to discuss in person" So I just said "No thank you"

I get a follow up email saying "Do you have any friends that would be interested in this job with a fortune 500 company that was voted one of the best companies to work for?" I almost emailed her back saying they probably would be if they had some idea about the pay range, but I clicked delete instead of send.

The other thing is I had some companies doing phone screens and I left my notebook at the office. It had notes with regard to whom I had spoken and details.

Turns out I go to an interview this evening and the guy goes "Oh I see we haven't discussed salary." I panicked. I was afraid I was going to have spent the last hour talking to these people and it was going to be peanuts and we would all feel like our time is wasted.

He asks what I am seeking. I have no idea how to answer this question (I have been below market for about 5 years so not sure where to place myself this go round). I kinda threw out what I want and watched his face for a reaction. He just said "that's reasonable". The interview carried on quite a bit longer which I also think is a good sign.

How do others handle this situation? I am a huge proponent of not wasting other peoples time (except with lengthy posts on POA) so I feel pay should be established first because it is the quickest filter for both parties. The majority of job postings do not include even a range.

I wish this part of job hunting was easier.
It is like browsing plane ads. Put the price in the description.
Click to expand...
Bryan, I think you are making a mistake not investing time in an interview before discussing compensation. As an employer I would never throw out a number before meeting a candidate. The resume only tells me a fraction of what I need to know about someone.
 
Interesting. I had a phone interview today and I did my best to avoid telling the guy what my salary demands were. I did get a salary range from him though just to ensure that we're not too far apart. I only negotiate salary in person and after I get an idea of the total benefits package. Recruiters can short change you, especially on contract jobs. The best thing to do is to make the company want you then negotiate salary/rate. You get more leverage that way.

You're not wasting your time if you turn down the job. You get the interview practice and you could possibly impress them enough so they make you a better offer. Not only that, you get your name on the recruiter's list. If something that pays better turns up he may call you.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I want your job.

In corporate America most people are lucky to get 2 weeks and generally it is accrued. For x amount of days worked, you earn so many days off.
Click to expand...

I try to not work more than 120 days a year, it cuts into life. However when I work, I am 'on' and in charge 24/7.
 
I try to get salary ranges up front if possible, but don't pass on interviews if they don't provide it ahead of time (I try to avoid passing up opportunities). If we get to the point of discussing salary and we're not even close, though, I make sure to point out how much of both of our time has been wasted by their decision to not discuss it earlier. (It's annoying, but some companies just seem to have a set way of handling this stuff.)

When asked what my expected salary is, my answer is always the same: "I expect to earn every penny I'm worth. How much is my experience and expertise worth to you?" (I was raised with the "whoever says a number first loses" mentality of negotiating). I assume their first number isn't their last, but it at least lets me know if it's worth taking any further or not.

It may not be for everyone, but this approach has been very successful for me.
 
I had a whole day of interviews scheduled a while back. The second meeting in the day was the business guy for the group. After we had established that there was quite a gap between what they were offering and what I was looking for, I asked their secretary to cancel the rest of the interviews. No point wasting anyones time.
 
docmirror said:
They didn't listen, so I went on two interviews, and gave notice the following monday. The VP of ops called me and said my paycheck would be significantly higher next pay period. They gave me a 22% bump, and thought I would stay. When I didn't retract my notice, they got angry, and I went back to my emails where I warned them not to get rid of my good guy and replace him with a mouth-breather. They offered to give me another 15% if I would stay. Nope, a decision is a decision. My new job paid as much as their upper limit, and the work is even better.

Some places know how to retain people and some don't care. My short stint with EMC years ago was quite entertaining.
Click to expand...

I made myself a promise years ago that I would never accept a counteroffer, and in almost 30 years of IT work, I never have.

To me, a counteroffer is too little, too late. I shouldn't have to threaten to walk out the door to be paid what I'm worth. It also doesn't solve the real problem of why I think people leave. It's not necessarily for more money (although that's part of it, to be sure), it's because they weren't recognized and rewarded in a timely fashion.

I'm facing that situation where I'm at now. I know for a fact I'm underpaid, but I stuck around because of golden handcuffs. But my 4-year vesting is up next month, and I'm probably going to turn in my resignation the following Monday.

I fully expect they'll panic, and my manager, the Senior Director, VP of Support, VP of Engineering (who is also a cofounder), and perhaps even the CEO (it was a small startup when I joined, so I do know all these people) will attempt to throw a higher salary and RSUs at me to stay, but it will be too late.

My manager has been jerking me around with the typical corporate BS about giving me additional responsibilities, and maybe he can get me moved into a higher salary band, and more money, and blah blah blah... Typical corporate HR BS. I told him in a recent 1-on-1 that my golden handcuffs were falling off in early February, but I guess he didn't think that was important.

I bet once I shove that resignation letter across the desk, all that goes out the window and magically they can get all the approvals they need to pay me more. Tough sh*t. Too little, too late.

I'm taking a break from the IT world, and once I walk out the door, I'm not looking back. I put in 4 years there and did my time. They can take a counteroffer and shove it for all I care.
 
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