Equipment suffix "slash" code question

[nj-pilot]

Referring to the equipment code list (AIM table 5-1-3 - attached), does a VOR without DME count as RNAV?
I'm a renter, and many of the aircraft I fly have a mode C transponder + VOR, but no DME or GPS.

Do I call that as /i (RNAV because I have VOR), or do I call that /u ?

Thanks

 

[timwinters]

I'm no authority on the topic but when I had the 172 that I bought and learned to fly in, it had a VOR...no DME and my instructor said /u.

 

[jordane93]

VOR without DME is /U

 

[MAKG1]

While there are VOR and DME based RNAV units, a VOR receiver itself is not one. RNAV means there is a database of named waypoints you can enter. See the Instrument Flying Handbook.

 

[flyingron]

A VOR isn't RNAV. RNAV is AREA NAVIGATION and includes things like GPS, LORAN, and old course line computers that used VORs and DME to navigate to an arbitrary point. /I would be for thinks like the KNS80 or more clunky RNAV units. The GNSS entries are for GPS.

 

[Skip Miller]

Referring to the equipment code list (AIM table 5-1-3 - attached), does a VOR without DME count as RNAV?

No. From Wikipedia:

Area navigation (RNAV) is a method of instrument flight rules (IFR) navigation that allows an aircraft to choose any course within a network of navigation beacons, rather than navigate directly to and from the beacons.

Equipped with a VOR only, all you can do is fly directly to or from a VOR station. You can't navigate directly to a point 15 miles bearing 090* from the station. You can track the inbound radial to the station, then outbound on 090* but that is not direct.

-Skip

 

[Maverick]

Referring to the equipment code list (AIM table 5-1-3 - attached), does a VOR without DME count as RNAV?
I'm a renter, and many of the aircraft I fly have a mode C transponder + VOR, but no DME or GPS.

Do I call that as /i (RNAV because I have VOR), or do I call that /u ?

Thanks

RNAV had been antiquated by GPS but for your information, RNAV requires DME. With RNAV you create way points for a more direct route by specifying an offset from a VOR in terms of radial and DME distance from the VOR.

 

[nj-pilot]

Follow-up question - suppose I fly with a Mode C Transponder + VOR + GPS which has an expired database.
I cannot use the GPS for IFR navigation, but can I use it as a valid DME?

You all clarified above that I must use /u with just VOR + Mode C Transponder.
If we add an expired GPS, does that allow me to be /i?

 

[Maverick]

Follow-up question - suppose I fly with a Mode C Transponder + VOR + GPS which has an expired database.
I cannot use the GPS for IFR navigation, but can I use it as a valid DME?

You all clarified above that I must use /u with just VOR + Mode C Transponder.
If we add an expired GPS, does that allow me to be /i?

I'm not sure on that one but my best guess is no. Maybe someone else has a more definitive answer.

 

[MAKG1]

Doesn't anyone read the AIM anymore?

 

[Larry in TN]

RNAV had been antiquated by GPS but for your information, RNAV requires DME. With RNAV you create way points for a more direct route by specifying an offset from a VOR in terms of radial and DME distance from the VOR.

That is not correct.

RNAV means area navigation and covers any navigation system that can navigate point to point. GPS is one type of RNAV. LORAN is another type of RNAV. Inertial navigation systems are another type of RNAV. The airliners I fly have a Flight Management System which has inertial nav with DME/DME updating and GPS updating. That FMS is another form of RNAV.

What you are referring to (entering a radial/DME from a VOR and navigating direct to that point) is, as Ron mentioned, a Course Line Computer which is another form of RNAV. Back in the 1980s the CLC was the only RNAV system that was available for GA aircraft so many GA pilots knew it simple as "RNAV" and that misconception has stuck.

Doesn't anyone read the AIM anymore?

No. I really don't think that they do.

 

[Everskyward]

No. I really don't think that they do.

I think they do. Note that the OP posted the table from the AIM. But the AIM is sometimes not that clear about what suffix to use in all situations.

 

[Maverick]

That is not correct.

RNAV means area navigation and covers any navigation system that can navigate point to point. GPS is one type of RNAV. LORAN is another type of RNAV. Internal navigation systems are another type of RNAV. The airliners I fly have a Flight Management System which has inertial nav with DME/DME updating and GPS updating. That FMS is another form of RNAV.

What you are referring to (entering a radial/DME from a VOR and navigating direct to that point) is, as Ron mentioned, a Course Line Computer which is another form of RNAV. Back in the 1980s the CLC was the only RNAV system that was available for GA aircraft so many GA pilots knew it simple as "RNAV" and that misconception has stuck.


No. I really don't think that they do.

Thanks for the correction. I was obviously thinking of the CLC. In my Cardinal I had a King KNS-81 RNAV and the remote DME to go along with it and that's what I was thinking of.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

Follow-up question - suppose I fly with a Mode C Transponder + VOR + GPS which has an expired database.
I cannot use the GPS for IFR navigation, but can I use it as a valid DME?

You all clarified above that I must use /u with just VOR + Mode C Transponder.
If we add an expired GPS, does that allow me to be /i?

AC 90-108:

b. RNAV System Database Considerations.
(1) Pilots must ensure their onboard navigation data is current, appropriate for the region
of intended operation, and includes the waypoints, NAVAIDs, and fixes for departure, arrival,
and alternate airfields.

NOTE: The navigation data should be current for the duration of the flight.
If the Aeronautical Information Regulation and Control (AIRAC) cycle will
change during flight, operators and pilots should establish procedures to
ensure the accuracy of navigation data, including suitability of navigation
facilities used to define the routes and procedures for flight. Traditionally,
this has been accomplished by verifying electronic data against paper
products.

(2) Pilots must extract waypoints, NAVAIDs, and fixes by name from the onboard
navigation database and comply with the charted procedure or route. Heading-based legs
associated with procedures may be flown using manual technique (based on indicated magnetic
heading) or, if available, extracted from the aircraft database and flown using RNAV system
guidance.

 

[John Collins]

That is not correct.

RNAV means area navigation and covers any navigation system that can navigate point to point. GPS is one type of RNAV. LORAN is another type of RNAV. Internal navigation systems are another type of RNAV. The airliners I fly have a Flight Management System which has inertial nav with DME/DME updating and GPS updating. That FMS is another form of RNAV.

What you are referring to (entering a radial/DME from a VOR and navigating direct to that point) is, as Ron mentioned, a Course Line Computer which is another form of RNAV. Back in the 1980s the CLC was the only RNAV system that was available for GA aircraft so many GA pilots knew it simple as "RNAV" and that misconception has stuck.

The rho theta units were RNAV systems based on VOR-DME and there were even approaches with the title RNAV using VOR-DME. AC 90-45 describes the installation guidelines for these systems. Here is a quote from the AC purpose:

This Advisory Circular provides guidelines for implementation
of two-dimensional area navigation (2D RNAV) within the U,S, National
Airspace System (NAS). It provides for both VOR/DME dependent systems
and self-contained systems such as Inertial Navigation Systems (INS),
etc.

Course Line Computers area different animal and were offered by Collins and used VOR-VOR triangulation. I don't think they were ever approved for IFR.

My KNS80 is approved for IFR, including approaches, although I don't think any still exist in the NAS. Later on when databases were introduced into LORAN and GPS based RNAV systems, the FAA adopted the nomenclature of advance RNAV systems to distinguish them from VOR-DME RNAV systems.

 

[John Collins]

Thanks for the correction. I was obviously thinking of the CLC. In my Cardinal I had a King KNS-81 RNAV and the remote DME to go along with it and that's what I was thinking of.

The KNS81 is an VOR-DME RNAV system and not a CLC. You were right in the first place.

 

[Larry in TN]

The KNS81 is an VOR-DME RNAV system and not a CLC. You were right in the first place.

course-line computer[′kȯrs ‚līn kəm′pyüd·ər]
(navigation)
An airborne computer that accepts bearing and distance information derived from ground facilities and uses this data to compute a course from the aircraft's present position to any other point which the pilot selects, providing only that it be within the coverage of the ground facilities; the steering information is displayed on a right-left indicator, while additional displays such as distance to go are also provided. Also known as arbitrary course computer; bearing distance computer; off-line computer; parallel course computer; rho-theta computer.

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/course-line+computer

 

[John Collins]

course-line computer[′kȯrs ‚līn kəm′pyüd·ər]
(navigation)
An airborne computer that accepts bearing and distance information derived from ground facilities and uses this data to compute a course from the aircraft's present position to any other point which the pilot selects, providing only that it be within the coverage of the ground facilities; the steering information is displayed on a right-left indicator, while additional displays such as distance to go are also provided. Also known as arbitrary course computer; bearing distance computer; off-line computer; parallel course computer; rho-theta computer.

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/course-line+computer

You need to let the FAA know. That is not what they classify the VOR-DME RNAV systems such as the KNS80 as.

 

[flyingron]

The KNS81 is an VOR-DME RNAV system and not a CLC. You were right in the first place.

Eh? It is indeed a CLC, it just happens to have an internal VOR/LOC/GS receiver. It requires to be interface to one of the King external DMEs to provide area navigation. The KNS80 also has the DME built in (but it's still a CLC at heart).

 

[John Collins]

Eh? It is indeed a CLC, it just happens to have an internal VOR/LOC/GS receiver. It requires to be interface to one of the King external DMEs to provide area navigation. The KNS80 also has the DME built in (but it's still a CLC at heart).

Since this topic is the equipment suffix code, if you have a mode C transponder with a KNS80 or a KNS81 and no GPS, using the equipment code of /I is the appropriate code for a domestic flightplan.

In the AIM, 5-1-8, table 5-1-3 lists the following code in the Suffix column for No RVSM. RNAV, no GNSS, Transponder with mode C as /I.

 

[flyingron]

Yep, that's what that row looks like it is for. I used to fly two planes with RNAV and MODE C (one was a KNS80 and the other was a thumb-wheel and push button CESSNA/ARC thing. Of course, this was back in the old equipment code days.

Our amusing RNAV story is that Margy's primary flight instructor had a NO GPS rule (the planes didn't have GPSs but some of us had some of the early handheld units like the Garmin 195 and the Apollo 920). Margy never took a GPS but I showed her how to program the ARC RNAV box. The old little brown book flight guides had rho/theta coords from the nearest VOR. Her instructor caught her doing that for the destination airport and got the "NO RNAV" prohibition as a result.

 

[Maverick]

Eh? It is indeed a CLC, it just happens to have an internal VOR/LOC/GS receiver. It requires to be interface to one of the King external DMEs to provide area navigation. The KNS80 also has the DME built in (but it's still a CLC at heart).

Yes and in my Cardinal I had the King KN-63 remote DME with the KDI 574 display interfaced to the KNS-81. But the RNAV was never IFR certified in that airplane. I was thinking about going through with getting it certified but decided not to waste the money on technology that was becoming obsolete. When I filed my IFR flight plans I used /A.

 

[genna]

Follow-up question - suppose I fly with a Mode C Transponder + VOR + GPS which has an expired database.
I cannot use the GPS for IFR navigation, but can I use it as a valid DME?

You all clarified above that I must use /u with just VOR + Mode C Transponder.
If we add an expired GPS, does that allow me to be /i?

You can use expired GPS database for IFR navigation, provided you verify the waypoints. Cannot use as DME. And cannot use for approaches. As far as I can understand AIM(1-1-24) anyway. Table 1-1-6

 

[nj-pilot]

Thanks everyone, very helpful

 

[TheGolfPilot]

You can always file for something less. I wouldn't know how to work a Loran or India box so I would file as though I didn't have that equipment onboard.

 

[mkosmo]

You can always file for something less. I wouldn't know how to work a Loran or India box so I would file as though I didn't have that equipment onboard.

Well, maybe it should be "equipped, operating, and prepared to use" code lol

Just file /IPAD

 

[roncachamp]

Course Line Computers are a different animal and were offered by Collins and used VOR-VOR triangulation. I don't think they were ever approved for IFR.

NARCO Courseline Computers used VOR-DME and were approved for IFR navigation.