Engine overhaul planning

K

Kelvin Matthews

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Sep 6, 2018
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Sixstring2k
Good day.
I am beginning the planning phase for an engine overhaul and I am looking for current recommendations as well as the latest turnaround times that people have experienced in the last year or so if possible? How good was the communication and in general the over all experience?

I have run google search into many of the big name shops but many reviews seem older than I wanted and also came across names I never heard off and can’t find recommendations on like A&E aircraft engines of Plano tx, Prices look really attractive but I know nothing about them.
I do like it when they post the prices but I know that’s not always the case.

Any information and experiences welcome and thank you in advance.
 
You'll get better information if you note the kind of engine you're looking to get overhauled. Recommendations may vary based on engine type.
 
More information would be helpful. What engine? Why are you overhauling? What is your price range? Do you want a straight overhaul or do you want some improvements? What's your timeline?
 
Kelvin Matthews said:
Good day.
I am beginning the planning phase for an engine overhaul and I am looking for current recommendations as well as the latest turnaround times that people have experienced in the last year or so if possible? How good was the communication and in general the over all experience?

I have run google search into many of the big name shops but many reviews seem older than I wanted and also came across names I never heard off and can’t find recommendations on like A&E aircraft engines of Plano tx, Prices look really attractive but I know nothing about them.
I do like it when they post the prices but I know that’s not always the case.

Any information and experiences welcome and thank you in advance.
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Dec 2019 I ordered a Lycoming rebuilt 0-320. It came in 11 weeks, 4 weeks late. That didn't bother me since I was still flying the old engine. My mechanic and I changed it during the 4th of July week 2020. 6 days later I was flying the zero hour rebuilt engine.
I hope to do it the same way next time. I have almost 900 hours on it now.
 
As of 3 weeks ago Poplar Grove Airmotive (Airport C77/Northern IL) has a 6-month lead time on engine overhauls. The hangar floor had 40+ engines waiting to go into the Engine shop and the Engine shop was absolutely chock full of engines on racks awaiting their turn.
 
baboss said:
As of 3 weeks ago Poplar Grove Airmotive (Airport C77/Northern IL) has a 6-month lead time on engine overhauls. The hangar floor had 40+ engines waiting to go into the Engine shop and the Engine shop was absolutely chock full of engines on racks awaiting their turn.
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My hangar neighbor had his 470 overhauled there at Polar Grove. He was down for about 9 months. They did a good job as he fly's it a lot and it is running good. I have flown it some also.
 
AvNavCom said:
More information would be helpful. What engine? Why are you overhauling? What is your price range? Do you want a straight overhaul or do you want some improvements? What's your timeline?
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Ok straight overhaul, o-540 lycoming, price that’s what I am trying to nail down. No improvements.
 
baboss said:
As of 3 weeks ago Poplar Grove Airmotive (Airport C77/Northern IL) has a 6-month lead time on engine overhauls. The hangar floor had 40+ engines waiting to go into the Engine shop and the Engine shop was absolutely chock full of engines on racks awaiting their turn.
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Interesting. PG never got back to my guy with a quote, even though the institute buys 5-10 engines a year from them. He said they've been averaging about 8 months. They have good luck with them. G&N quoted me 6 months. They also quoted me 4 weeks on my machine work and took 12.

$55-60K will be the number assuming they don't condemn any major parts. As alluded to above, I just finished overhauling my own io540, and it took 5 months. Most of that was spent waiting on cases. I think you'll find 6 months will be what everyone says, and they might actually be able to do that if you'de lucky.

jbaircraftengines.com in Florida has a good reputation and will actually pick up the phone and talk to you. Seems like a good dude.
 
Last year, Western Skyways did an exchange for us in ~ 4 months. We ordered, paid half up front, they shipped it, we paid the other half. We had 30 days to return our engine using the pre-paid shipping.
 
Last year my O-360 was starting to have problems with 2400 hours on the tach. I figured it was time for a rebuilt engine rather than an overhaul. I went with LyCon in California. They quoted 6-8 months for the work, and required a 50% deposit to get started. Since they were using another core, I could keep flying (cautiously) while the new engine was being built. I paid extra to have the heads flowed and ported. DLC coated tappets were standard, as was careful weight matches for rotating and reciprocating parts. The final engine dynoed at 203 Hp on the test stand, and it has been MUCH smoother than any O-360 I've ever flown with. Much less vibration and the additional power is noticeable. I even had to upgrade my oil cooler to keep temps in the green zone in the summer. The engine was finished in just under 6 months, but there was a 2 week wait for the dynamometer. I'm VERY happy with the final result and with the communications LyCon provided during the process.
 
Flyhound said:
…LyCon in California. …I paid extra to have the heads flowed and ported. … I'm VERY happy with the final result and with the communications LyCon provided during the process.
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Ly-Con was on our short list; I couldn’t convince my partners to accept the additional delay.
 
Jim K said:
jbaircraftengines.com in Florida has a good reputation and will actually pick up the phone and talk to you. Seems like a good dude.
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I had mine done at JB last year. Jimmy Bron is a good guy with straight forward business practices and a meticulous shop. No hesitation recommending.

I am of the opinion that a good local shop is better than a brand name. For example, I have visited Zephyr several times and am not impressed. The facility is like a homeless encampment. They are living off the reputation that Charlie Melot built before he retired years ago.
 
Kelvin Matthews said:
Ok straight overhaul, o-540 lycoming, price that’s what I am trying to nail down. No improvements.
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I went with LyCon, in Visalia CA. My Lycoming O-360-A4A was quoted at $25k for the overhaul, up to $33k with some upgrades. Ended up $55k due to needing a new crankshaft and camshaft. I think it was 7-8 months turn-around time. Your engine will presumably be more expensive than an O-360, but I imagine the wait-time would be about the same.

Communication has been good. The engine is running great and putting out over 200HP on the dyno with some mods (looks like Flyhound had a similar experience). Weirdly, I've had a problem with oil temps being too LOW (~150) that we've been trying to figure out. I just spent 20 minutes on the phone with Ken (the owner, I believe) chatting through solutions. His response to my questions was "I'll send you whatever you need to get this right." Solid shop, and I recommend them without hesitation. I took a tour back when I lived near Visalia, and those guys are fanatical about engines, performance, and getting things perfect.
 
TCABM said:
Last year, Western Skyways did an exchange for us in ~ 4 months. We ordered, paid half up front, they shipped it, we paid the other half. We had 30 days to return our engine using the pre-paid shipping.
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This. Unless you're a non mortal like Jim K, highly suggest you order a remain. When it comes in 6-9 months, have your mechanic swap the engine and send the old one back. This way you get a fresh engine and your plane isn't sitting idle for 6 - 9 months.
 
Consider getting all new Superior cylinders. They have a 37 month or engine TBO, which ever occurs first. Also there are mandatory replacement parts that are oftentimes not quoted. I knew my engine required a new cam gear as a service bulletin came out since last rebuild. Shocking how some overhaulers charge crazy prices and some don't. Gives a better change to negotiate the additional items if you know up front.

Ask for a line item option for new cam, in case the old one cannot be re-ground.

Reminds me... if your engine is pre-2000, reuse as much of the steel part as possible since the metallurgy is better and it doesn't have any AD's.
 
AvNavCom said:
I went with LyCon, in Visalia CA. My Lycoming O-360-A4A was quoted at $25k for the overhaul, up to $33k with some upgrades. Ended up $55k due to needing a new crankshaft and camshaft. I think it was 7-8 months turn-around time. Your engine will presumably be more expensive than an O-360, but I imagine the wait-time would be about the same.

Communication has been good. The engine is running great and putting out over 200HP on the dyno with some mods (looks like Flyhound had a similar experience). Weirdly, I've had a problem with oil temps being too LOW (~150) that we've been trying to figure out. I just spent 20 minutes on the phone with Ken (the owner, I believe) chatting through solutions. His response to my questions was "I'll send you whatever you need to get this right." Solid shop, and I recommend them without hesitation. I took a tour back when I lived near Visalia, and those guys are fanatical about engines, performance, and getting things perfect.
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That's pretty sobering. Been going back and forth about keeping my Cherokee 180 with an o360 a3a. 1600 hours so the overhaul is coming if it's kept. If it's overhauled I'd like to swap out the a3a crank to remove the rpm restriction. And might as well overhaul the prop. But being an original k mod, it too probably gets red tagged.

Probably better off selling. Fly dad's Cherokee six and put money earned and saved towards an RV 10/14
 
Racerx said:
Probably better off selling. Fly dad's Cherokee six and put money earned and saved towards an RV 10/14
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Worked for me. Saving at a good clip for the retirement airplane (rv-6a). I also gave up the family mission so it's not apples to apples, but with the wife being a full time earner and the kid going into high school, it was a mission with an expiration date anyways.

Macro problem still persists (captive audience to fac built pricing via Lyco proxy), but at least that's an airframe I can park and hold on to until the powerplant situation improves or I find an auto solution down the road. Clone engines have been a big disappointment on the pricing front. No savings of consequence, as they're overhauled to the same labor cost and hobby-souring delays.
 
How do you know when you need one?
 
Jim K said:
Interesting. PG never got back to my guy with a quote, even though the institute buys 5-10 engines a year from them. He said they've been averaging about 8 months. They have good luck with them. G&N quoted me 6 months.
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The PG avionics guy gave me the 6 month timeline and could have said "at minimum". I would easily believe 8 months if their engine shop is as detail oriented as the avionics guy and the shop mechanic (former engine shop guy) that worked on my engine. Combine that with the problems with waiting on "outside services" and parts supply and it almost starts to make sense to buy a runout engine from someone and send that off for overhaul while you fly on, assuming your engine doesn't unexpectedly **** the bed! Then hang your new-to-you overhauled engine & sell your used engine and recoup what you can. They PG guys recommended that if you can swing it due to the backlog.
 
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I'm surprised at the overhaul times quoted. Are there still COVID supply chain issues? Perhaps a glut of run out engines due to increased training over the last few years? Penn Yan overhauled my engine in two months Q4 2019...
 
My Lycon 0-360 A4K engine exchange is being installed on my Tiger as we speak. It should be ready in a couple of weeks. Lycon quoted me 9 months and it was about 8 1/2. Didn’t really matter as I was still flying on my other engine. My 2-month downtime has been primarily waiting on parts for the install.

Quote was 30K, with 50% down upon placing the order. Port/polish and a few xtras pushed it to 33 or 34.
 
One of the guys on another board I'm on, just suffered a prop strike during an annual inspection. The shop doing the inspection was just quoted 8 months wait to get it into the Lycoming shop for the inspection.
 
Craig said:
One of the guys on another board I'm on, just suffered a prop strike during an annual inspection. The shop doing the inspection was just quoted 8 months wait to get it into the Lycoming shop for the inspection.
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They dropped the plane off the jacks?
 
Racerx said:
That's pretty sobering. Been going back and forth about keeping my Cherokee 180 with an o360 a3a. 1600 hours so the overhaul is coming if it's kept. If it's overhauled I'd like to swap out the a3a crank to remove the rpm restriction. And might as well overhaul the prop. But being an original k mod, it too probably gets red tagged.

Probably better off selling. Fly dad's Cherokee six and put money earned and saved towards an RV 10/14
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Well, don't forget that overhaul time is just a suggestion for part 91. You can keep happily flying that engine for as long as you want past TBO if it's in good working order. That said, if it's in your mind to sell the aircraft, I'd do it now before it gets too many hours on it. You're already going to see a degradation in the sale price since it has TBO on the horizon, and that will only get worse as you approach 2000 hours on the engine. At that point, you'll either have to bite the bullet on an overhaul, or apply a substantial discount to your selling price to a similar degree. Were I in your shoes, I'd take a look at the holistic situation. Sounds like you have access to another aircraft, so you won't be grounded after selling. You don't have much appetite for the overhaul time/cost. And it seems that you are already looking at moving into experimental. Given all that, I'd probably sell now to avoid some headaches.
 
AvNavCom said:
Well, don't forget that overhaul time is just a suggestion for part 91. You can keep happily flying that engine for as long as you want past TBO if it's in good working order. That said, if it's in your mind to sell the aircraft, I'd do it now before it gets too many hours on it. You're already going to see a degradation in the sale price since it has TBO on the horizon, and that will only get worse as you approach 2000 hours on the engine. At that point, you'll either have to bite the bullet on an overhaul, or apply a substantial discount to your selling price to a similar degree. Were I in your shoes, I'd take a look at the holistic situation. Sounds like you have access to another aircraft, so you won't be grounded after selling. You don't have much appetite for the overhaul time/cost. And it seems that you are already looking at moving into experimental. Given all that, I'd probably sell now to avoid some headaches.
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With what I paid for it, it won't be a loser in today's market even if it was runout.
 
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Racerx said:
With what I paid for it, it won't be a loser in today's market even if it was runout.
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Selling at TBO is ideal for both parties. Buyer gets to pick his overhaul shop and decide on accessories, so he/she knows exactly what they are getting. Seller gets full enjoyment and no big investment.
 
Craig said:
Pitts S-2A and they were doing a run up for a leak check after the annual. Tail lifted with power on.
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Ugh. Saw that happen to a Decathlon. Most likely the aircraft slipped forward a bit and the person at the controls jabbed the brakes while not maintaining full aft stick. He might also have made the rookie mistake of sitting solo in the front seat.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Ugh. Saw that happen to a Decathlon. Most likely the aircraft slipped forward a bit and the person at the controls jabbed the brakes while not maintaining full aft stick. He might also have made the rookie mistake of sitting solo in the front seat.
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When I was working regularly on Mustangs and other high powered tail draggers, our power limit was 30" without the aircraft tail securely tied down. We could momentarily burp it to 40" when starting to taxi on grass, but anything higher had to be done by a currently qualified pilot and only during a simulated takeoff run on the runway.
 
Kelvin Matthews said:
Ok straight overhaul, o-540 lycoming, price that’s what I am trying to nail down. No improvements.
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I've been pricing O-540s, I have one over the 2000hr TBO now and running strong, another O-540 at 1100hrs. Last summer the time factor was "over a year" for an overhauled engine and plan about $50K. O-540-B2C5 (235hp) and O-540-B2C5-C-A1D5 (STC to 250hp)

Have a friend that had metal in the oil. Sent the engine out for overhaul. Ended up just doing the tear down, replace parts as needed and rebuild. Not a true overhaul so TSMOH did not set back to 0. Long pole in the tent is the machine shop to plane the engine halves. He was looking at over a year for the machine shop.
 
Flyhound said:
Last year my O-360 was starting to have problems with 2400 hours on the tach. I figured it was time for a rebuilt engine rather than an overhaul. I went with LyCon in California. They quoted 6-8 months for the work, and required a 50% deposit to get started. Since they were using another core, I could keep flying (cautiously) while the new engine was being built. I paid extra to have the heads flowed and ported. DLC coated tappets were standard, as was careful weight matches for rotating and reciprocating parts. The final engine dynoed at 203 Hp on the test stand, and it has been MUCH smoother than any O-360 I've ever flown with. Much less vibration and the additional power is noticeable. I even had to upgrade my oil cooler to keep temps in the green zone in the summer. The engine was finished in just under 6 months, but there was a 2 week wait for the dynamometer. I'm VERY happy with the final result and with the communications LyCon provided during the process.
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If you would t mind, would you tell us in round numbers what Lycon charged you?
 
mr_happyland said:
My Lycon 0-360 A4K engine exchange is being installed on my Tiger as we speak. It should be ready in a couple of weeks. Lycon quoted me 9 months and it was about 8 1/2. Didn’t really matter as I was still flying on my other engine. My 2-month downtime has been primarily waiting on parts for the install.

Quote was 30K, with 50% down upon placing the order. Port/polish and a few xtras pushed it to 33 or 34.
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Thanks. That really isn’t a bad price for a Lycon engine. What cylinders did you go with? I’m probably a few years away (insert sound of wood knocking here) for my Tiger.
 
mandm said:
How do you know when you need one?
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Things start shaking a little, then a lot, then inability to read the instruments makes you ponder out loud if you should have embellished how long you were gonna be out for lunch instead of "playing Zelda with the kid". After thank tower for their patience, crawl out the fresh boat anchor, push-kick the side of the cowling while uttering past onlookers "well, this is over..." and drive off home in a hurry.

That'd be pretty good indicator, or so I've heard....:fingerwag:
 
Aerotec almost a year ago sent it out with a 12 week return. They did great job.
 
Rcmutz said:
Thanks. That really isn’t a bad price for a Lycon engine. What cylinders did you go with? I’m probably a few years away (insert sound of wood knocking here) for my Tiger.
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That was with all new Lycoming cylinders.

My engine wasn’t in immediate need of overhaul, but it was at 1900 hours and the cam lobes had pitting/corrosion. The 9-month wait wasn’t an issue b/c I could still fly in the meantime. The reality is that every year that goes by, the overhauls will become more expensive.
 

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mr_happyland said:
The reality is that every year that goes by, the overhauls will become more expensive.
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Meh, macro conditions also affect OEMs. Their demand for for-revenue engines is about to take a dump. Recreational participants should start seeing a reversion, which is flat to lower prices when inflation adjusted, as their inventory sits and they stop being so hostile to small fry.

Book orders thin out in times of no airline hiring, we're entering a big lull, Covid got all these people thinking that's what industry downturns normally look like (EKG-duration spikes, as opposed to multi-year bathtubs). Fac built is cooked either way yes, but I refute your statement about powerplant replacement pricing being a one-way check valve.
 
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