Electronic Logbook (2021 info)

[AerialsSoUpHigh]

Hi folks,

First, sorry if this is the wrong area for this question (wasn't sure if this should go in training or not), I understand if it needs to be moved to deleted/reposted elsewhere. With that said...

I'm wondering if someone can set me straight on the situation with electronically logging flights. Googling it scares me, as I seem to get a lot of conflicting info and it also seems that there have been changes over the years and I don't want to go off info that was correct X number of years (or with my luck, months) ago, but is no longer so I'm hoping to get the skinny on this, 2021-style.

I started flying back in '06 and so I have loads of entries across a number of books, each with associated appropriate endorsements, sigs and so on.

I would really like to put my logs into digital format. Am I correct in understanding that airlines and the FAA are fine with you using something like excel (so long as its properly organized - I intend to model a file after the big browncover paper Jep books)? I also want to verify that I am correct in understanding you either need something that digitally encrypts a signature in the file or keep a paper note/slip/log of any endorsements/signatures received so that you can produce proof when asked?

1) I really just want to put my "professional" days into electronic format, and not mess with entering my student days - I'd like to just keep those books as is, or at least enter them if I get around to it. Is it a problem if I split my logging up, ie have paper book logs to a certain point, and then electronic after a certain date? Im envisioning this like having bought a fresh book and starting with the first page of it.
2) Am I good to enter these logs into excel and then bring the physical paper endorsements with signatures?
3) Do I need to do anything super specific or special in this proposed-excel file when a log entry extra things attached to it? I'm thinking BFRs, IPCs, safety pilots, dual given (student names), or anything else? Up to this point I have a physical paper copy of things like BFRs and IPCs, do I need to specifically reference them in the electronic file, or is it acceptable to just bring them along to an airline interview? I expect to print out the electronic file so there will be paper-with-paper, I just want to double check there aren't any special gotchas associated with this method.
4) Does the FAA, or do airlines in the interview process, view electronic logs as "dirty" or "lesser" in some way? I trained in the days when GPS was still viewed as "the devil's tech" (lol) and I still have a strange feeling/sense that any electronic version of something you could do with paper/sliderule is cheating or shady somehow, I don't have a good idea of how much that sentiment has changed.

Sorry for the long post. Thanks all.

 

[iamtheari]

The short answer: Nothing you are worried about is a reason for worry.

The only real challenge in my experience has been getting CFI signatures from CFIs who don’t use the same electronic logbook as I do (MyFlightBook, which has a feature for CFI signatures). My solution is to log into my electronic logbook and occasionally transfer the information into my paper logbook, which also contains CFI signatures. I have images of my various endorsements saved electronically, as well, so loss of my paper logbook would not affect my flying.

 

[AerialsSoUpHigh]

The short answer: Nothing you are worried about is a reason for worry.

The only real challenge in my experience has been getting CFI signatures from CFIs who don’t use the same electronic logbook as I do (MyFlightBook, which has a feature for CFI signatures). My solution is to log into my electronic logbook and occasionally transfer the information into my paper logbook, which also contains CFI signatures. I have images of my various endorsements saved electronically, as well, so loss of my paper logbook would not affect my flying.

Well thats reassuring. I would actually prefer to have a paper signature to bring with me (so long as its not viewed as haphazard) so having non-digital sigs is fine with me, so long as everyone considers that kosher.

One thing I'm still confused on is, why is the FAA ok with something like excel which can be edited after the fact (I mean, your records need to match anyone else's associated - CFIs, rental records, etc. of course) when using whiteout on a paper book is considered a grievous sacrilege? They make such a fuss about one line only through any error with the initials so that they can see adjustments. Is that just more or less a relic of days gone by? (ok rereading this makes me sound paranoid lol but my CFI put the fear of god in us, she freaked out about me riding a training motorcycle 5 days before I had my CY driving/riding endorsement telling me it could destroy my career I know she was an odd one but I just dunno how odd haha) kinda crazy how all these years later I'm still so worried to make any tiny mistake. Irrational fear of not knowing what I don't know I don't know lol

 

[AerialsSoUpHigh]

I had another thought - what about log entries that dont have an associated endorsement, just a signature in the remarks? Dual received logging comes to mind. Each log needs a CFI sig, can a CFI just sign a piece of paper with a date or would they have to add all the info (route, flight time, etc) in with that signature (thereby sort of negating the convenience of the electronic log)?

 

[donjohnston]

I just bring my paper logbook for BFR's or when I needed a CFI signature. Everything else goes into the digital logbook.

 

[WDD]

I use a traditional paper log book. Never an issue with someone signing it, easy to jot down hours right after dine with flight.

I scan it once a month or so for back up.

I have an excel sheet copy as well so I can easily add up hours in various ways (keep track of requirements, number of hours past year, etc)).

 

[midlifeflyer]

I would really like to put my logs into digital format. Am I correct in understanding that airlines and the FAA are fine with you using something like excel (so long as its properly organized - I intend to model a file after the big browncover paper Jep books)? I also want to verify that I am correct in understanding you either need something that digitally encrypts a signature in the file or keep a paper note/slip/log of any endorsements/signatures received so that you can produce proof when asked?

That is essentially correct but with a caution. If a question comes up, if you consider your eLog as your primary record (rather than as backup to paper), I think you will be better served with one which is recognized out there than rolling your own. The obvious places questions come up are qualification for knowledge test and checkrides, job applications, and, of course, enforcement activities where your qualifications are being challenged.

If you read between the lines in AC 120-78A, the FAA's guidance on electronic signatures, you'll see the FAA is looking for two things in an electronic logbook. Prevention of unauthorized changes and authenticity of signatures. The same two things it is looking for in a paper logbook.

In theory, no problem with rolling your own to record your own flight time. There is no requirement to sign our logbooks, so there's really no eSignature issue there. The FAA has accepted simple spreadsheets submitted by pilots as a record of their own flight time. Sadly most of those have been in enforcement proceedings where the electronic record managed to hang the pilot (in the same way as paper). The biggest risk I guess, is a claim for record falsification, say, adding three night takeoffs and landings after the landing accident with passengers. But that issue is there with pen and paper as well. But, personally, I would feel much more comfortable submitting one from a generally recognized (whatever that means) vendor.

Instructor signatures are something else. AC 120-78A talks about the requirements. The important thing there, though, is going to be inalterability. That once signed, an alteration will void the document or entry. Yeah, you can probably accomplish this on your own but, again, I feel that a recognized vendor is a better choice and less likely to raise questions when answering questions is important. Most of the digital logbooks out there have (or at least claim) the ability to collect instructor signatures following the FAA's guidelines for authenticity and prevention of unauthorized changes.

For context and whatever value you may find in it, I began using an electronic logbook as a backup to my paper logbook about the time I got my instrument rating in 1992. Database rather than spreadsheet, Paradox for DOS, to be specific (for the geeks out there). After Windows95 came along, it got ported and ended up in Access. In 2006, I transitioned to MyFlightBook (apparently I am user #18!). In mid-2013 I stopped using my paper logbook except for third-party signatures and endorsements. I was still being conserative about the signature issue. Eventually I was personally satisfied with the way MyFlightBook handled instructor signatures and began using it. for that as well. The exception is signatures from CFIs who feel uncomfortable with digital endorsements (those get scanned). The last two entries in my paper log are from 2019 and 2017.

 

[unsafervguy]

Once you have a certificate in hand the faa only cares about a log book to show required currency. Other than that they don’t care if you log it or not. Employers my be a different story.

 

[AerialsSoUpHigh]

I just bring my paper logbook for BFR's or when I needed a CFI signature. Everything else goes into the digital logbook.

I suppose this makes sense. I don't often need a CFI signature anymore these days, and when I do, I'll know it's coming and definitely have something they can sign physically.

I use a traditional paper log book. Never an issue with someone signing it, easy to jot down hours right after dine with flight.

I scan it once a month or so for back up.

I have an excel sheet copy as well so I can easily add up hours in various ways (keep track of requirements, number of hours past year, etc)).

It wasn't until about two weeks ago I even considered something other than a traditional book.... to the point where, 6 or 7 years ago a friend was transferring his 4k hrs from paper into digital and since I didn't consider doing the same, none of the questions of this thread even crossed my mind haha. But anyway, my thing is that I would fly daily for like 6mo and just let cloudahoy track everything... then eventually realize its time for a BFR or whatever and, oh crud, I gotta catch up 6mo of logs so I can get the signature (not that theres any law about having your log lines in chronological order (I dont think...?)) and that gets to be a mega pain with pen/paper, esp considering how slow I personally have to go, quadruple-checking everything to make its all "professionally legable" and mistake free... and even then I feel a sense of victory when I can do an entire page without any mistake lol. Good idea with the scanning btw.

That is essentially correct but with a caution. If a question comes up, if you consider your eLog as your primary record (rather than as backup to paper), I think you will be better served with one which is recognized out there than rolling your own. The obvious places questions come up are qualification for knowledge test and checkrides, job applications, and, of course, enforcement activities where your qualifications are being challenged.

Yeah, if I switch to an official vendor or something one day, I'll consider that my primary, but for now I'm going to just consider my paper logs to be still primary, but only log things with signatures in the paper and just stick to electronic (with backups, a couple thumb drives and/or google drive or something like that) for the rest - I'm sure theres a way to public/private key encrypt excel, and its probably not super complicated, but like you mentioned I don't want that to come back to haunt me later... find out I actually was doing it wrong and my file isnt actually encrypted like I thought it was or something like that, that's my luck.

For context and whatever value you may find in it, I began using an electronic logbook as a backup to my paper logbook about the time I got my instrument rating in 1992. Database rather than spreadsheet, Paradox for DOS, to be specific (for the geeks out there). After Windows95 came along, it got ported and ended up in Access. In 2006, I transitioned to MyFlightBook (apparently I am user #18!). In mid-2013 I stopped using my paper logbook except for third-party signatures and endorsements. I was still being conserative about the signature issue. Eventually I was personally satisfied with the way MyFlightBook handled instructor signatures and began using it. for that as well. The exception is signatures from CFIs who feel uncomfortable with digital endorsements (those get scanned). The last two entries in my paper log are from 2019 and 2017.

Oh wow you've been doing it a long time! Well, if no one has given you any trouble with it, that does instill a fair bit of confidence in my doing so. Appreciate that. (#18 lol, they ought to know you by name for being that early of an adopter! )

Once you have a certificate in hand the faa only cares about a log book to show required currency. Other than that they don’t care if you log it or not. Employers my be a different story.

I would be surprised if employers were more picky than the FAA, but I guess that's why I'm doing research to find out before I make any cant-go-back-now adjustments to the program. As mentioned, my luck is different than for most, hah.

 

[AerialsSoUpHigh]

One last thought... paper books have a "I hereby promise I'm not a big fat fibber" place to sign on each page. That's just a nice thing to have and not an actual requirement of some sort, correct?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Oh wow you've been doing it a long time! Well, if no one has given you any trouble with it, that does instill a fair bit of confidence in my doing so. Appreciate that. (#18 lol, they ought to know you by name for being that early of an adopter! )

That's why I said it was originally a backup. Since paper was primary, I originally only used my home grown digital one for backup and calculations. But since I went full digital (except for third-party signatures) in 2013, it hasn't been questioned. Of course, there's hasn't been any reason to question.

 

[midlifeflyer]

One last thought... paper books have a "I hereby promise I'm not a big fat fibber" place to sign on each page. That's just a nice thing to have and not an actual requirement of some sort, correct?

That's correct. There's no signature requirement for our logbooks. The paper logbooks (almost?) all have the line and we got used to signing it as though it were a requirement. I gave it up years ago unless I am asked to for some reason. For example, in 2004, I got checked out at a flight school while on vacation in Florida to rent an airplane for a multi-day trip. The asked me for a copy the last three full pages of my logbook and they wanted it signed. So I did.

 

[Fracpilot]

I use LogTen Pro. It does everything you need. CFI signatures, iCloud back ups, etc. I even had mine printed up and put in a nice binder for an airline interview. Tons of options with LogTen Pro. I’ve been using it for over 10 years. The only caveat is that it’s for IOS devices only.


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[ARFlyer]

My stuff is scattered to the far corners of the world.

Hobby Flying:

Logbook Pro - My official logbook
ForeFlight - Instrument and Pax Currency
Paper Log - Anything requiring Signatures and Stickers
FAASafety.gov - Flight Review

Then I have two other record systems for my FAA currency since they will not count outside currency...

So silly to have both external and internal Flight Review, Instrument and Pax Currency in addition to an annual commercial multi checkride. Plus I just got done with C90 school which gave me a Flight Review and IPC. Then I have two additional commercial multi checkrides in both the C90 and PA44 at the end of the month. So I’m up to 3 IPCs, 4 Flight Reviews, and 4 checkrides since December. If I ever get ramp checked and asked if I’m current I’ll walk away laughing.