Economical Time Builder?

[jason]

haha yes. i dont need the airplane to be ifr right now, but i would like in the next 6 months to put some ifr equipment in it if such a conversion (vfr to ifr) is not too complicated / expensive - is it?

It's aviation. It's all complicated/expensive.

 

[TMetzinger]

No. $10,000 for the _installation_ of one you already have. It's variable, of course, but that's not at all out of line for a 430. Wiring, trays, GPS antenna, presumably a compatible CDI, etc. And the installation has to certified for IFR GPS. I've heard of $15,000 for the installation at the high end.

John

Actually I was quoting 10,000 for a used one and installation. That's based on an average of five planes in local fleets that have had the work done recently.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Yes, I was looking into the 430 a few months ago before buying my plane. A used unit can be had for about $7,500, but then you really also need an indicator for another $1,500 or so and THEN installation. I think that it would cost a minimum of $10k to do it all including installation.

A Mooney IMHO is a WONDERFUL aircraft. The problem is that they have a reputation for mechanics hating to work on them. There are a few experts around. The number one guru USED to be Doug Dougash across the field from the Mooney factory in Kerrville, Texas. For all I know he is retired or otherwise not available. You would want to check out a Mooney thoroughly before purchase. If you got a solid one though, WOW what an aircraft you'd have.

If you decide to go the used avionics route Bennett Avionics is a great source for checked out or repaired, used stuff. Mr. Bennett is a VERY helpful guy that provides good old fashioned customer service. You can easily google him up.

Be very leary of any CHEAP airplane. It is said that "there is nothing more expensive than a cheap airplane." You need to investigate thoroughly before you buy, THEN arrange for it to be delivered to an IA that you trust and pay him for a prebuy inspection. The several hundred dollars that this costs could save you thousands and thousands.

If you have not purchased an aircraft before, make sure you do your homework regarding ancillary expenses; hanger space, insurance, annual costs, oil changes, taxes.... the list can add up. Currently I have money tied up in my airplane, & paying insurance, hanger fees and watching the annual burn away while my instructor is having to take his wife to the hospital as well as the weather keeping me out of the air. If a rental airplane were available for instruction I would currently be renting.

Good luck,
Doc

 

[Anthony]

Actually I was quoting 10,000 for a used one and installation. That's based on an average of five planes in local fleets that have had the work done recently.

That's the number I've been hearing for a used 430 installed.

 

[OzPilot]

Actually I was quoting 10,000 for a used one and installation. That's based on an average of five planes in local fleets that have had the work done recently.

I agree with this price after putting numbers together and getting a nice price on the used/tagged unit.

 

[jsstevens]

I stand corrected on the $10,000 for installation. I had heard stories of that much to get all the wiring (including GPS antennas' with cables) etc. Perhaps I misunderstood. This was also when the economy was still booming and 430/530's were the cream of the crop so maybe pricing has come down.

mea culpa.

John

 

[AggieMike88]

A Mooney IMHO is a WONDERFUL aircraft. The problem is that they have a reputation for mechanics hating to work on them. There are a few experts around. The number one guru USED to be Doug Dougash across the field from the Mooney factory in Kerrville, Texas. For all I know he is retired or otherwise not available. You would want to check out a Mooney thoroughly before purchase. If you got a solid one though, WOW what an aircraft you'd have.

Though I haven't visited him personally, the mooney owners I have met have said lots of good things about Don Maxwell's shop over in Longview, TX. www.donmaxwell.com should get you to the correct web page for info.

I agree with you, Doc, that a thorough checkout of the aircraft by the right person/shop can make a world of difference in the purchasing experience. If the OP can get himself and the Mooney to Don, he should get all the right answers needed about the aircraft.

 

[steingar]

thank you so much guys, how generally possible is it to convert a non-ifr airplane to become ifr certified?
how much is the altimeter static thing? what else is required other than the avionics listed above?

Either get the aircraft with the IFR equipment, or don't bother. The only thing more expensive than aircraft are avionics. You will never get your money back out, and will spend quite a bit more than if you rented.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Either get the aircraft with the IFR equipment, or don't bother. The only thing more expensive than aircraft are avionics. You will never get your money back out, and will spend quite a bit more than if you rented.

I absolutely agree with this. Although putting an IFR panel mounted GPS in a plane will make for a plane suitable for training and obtaining an IR, it would NOT make the economical sense of buying a plane with adequate and properly functioning avionics already in the plane.

There was in the thread, however, talk of installing the 430, and then removing and reselling it after obtaining the IR. This might work as long as the 430 market value doesn't decrease in the mean time.

This was a big thing for me when buying my plane. My avionics are old, but recently overhauled and in good operational condition. This was a big deciding factor for me.

Doc

 

[steingar]

There was in the thread, however, talk of installing the 430, and then removing and reselling it after obtaining the IR. This might work as long as the 430 market value doesn't decrease in the mean time.

Still doesn't work, sorry. The ink in the ointment is in the installation cost, which is will likely run more than ten hours of rental.

 

[Fearless Tower]

you need a heated Pitot tube.

??????

Heated pitot tube is a Part 125 requirement for airplanes having a seating capacity of 20 or more and max payload of 6000 lbs or more.

I don't think that sort of airplane is the best to meet his mission requirements.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Either get the aircraft with the IFR equipment, or don't bother. The only thing more expensive than aircraft are avionics. You will never get your money back out, and will spend quite a bit more than if you rented.

This is generally true, but there are always exceptions

My 170 turned out to be unique that way - first off, I did not go looking for an IFR airplane - I bought it as a VFR tailwheel timebuilder.

Because it already had most of what I needed for IFR, it really didn't take much to make it legal. The key was that I kept my expectations reasonable and went with used avionics and didn't splurge.....with the exception of adding a vertical card compass which really wasn't that expensive.

While I may not get 100% of the money I put into it, I will most likely get most of it back on resale plus, with the avionics and new paint, I will have a heck of alot easier time selling it than the previous owner did.

 

[steingar]

This is generally true, but there are always exceptions

That is true. But very few VFR trainers have a glideslope receiver or indicator, and that is already going to run into serious money no matter how you do it. If one is looking for a cheap time builder, I'd get one with the avionics already in it. The good news is the market is very good for buyers right now. Not so good for sellers.

 

[Fearless Tower]

The good news is the market is very good for buyers right now. Not so good for sellers.

That is also very true...

 

[Tom-D]

??????

Heated pitot tube is a Part 125 requirement for airplanes having a seating capacity of 20 or more and max payload of 6000 lbs or more.

I don't think that sort of airplane is the best to meet his mission requirements.

Would you advise flying IFR with out one?

 

[jsstevens]

Would you advise flying IFR with out one?

IFR, yes. IMC, no. The flying club I belong to has a 1963 C-172C which is legal for IFR. It's a good trainer. I would not want to fly any hard IMC with it. It does not have a heated pitot. I would stay out of any freezing conditions altogether. But for training with foggles, practice approaches, etc. it's fine.

John

 

[Fearless Tower]

Would you advise flying IFR with out one?

Depends on the conditions. I sure wouldn't go flying through solid IMC in my 170 in New England, but I really don't need a heated pitot tube to dart through the marine layer in SoCal.

My bird is IFR so I can legally file - not so I can log actual time if you know what I mean.

 

[Tom-D]

Depends on the conditions. I sure wouldn't go flying through solid IMC in my 170 in New England, but I really don't need a heated pitot tube to dart through the marine layer in SoCal.

My bird is IFR so I can legally file - not so I can log actual time if you know what I mean.

Well,,,,,,, our freeze level this morning was 4500' and a nice overcast at 4000'.

If you are going to build a certified IFR aircraft build it right.

Venturies are legal too, would you train with them?

what is safe, ain't always legal, what is legal, isn't always safe.

 

[Fearless Tower]

what is safe, ain't always legal, what is legal, isn't always safe.

I agree with you, but again, my system is plenty safe for what I use it for - flying 30-45 seconds of an approach through a 500 foot deep marine layer that has a 1000' ceiling. If I am going up against any kind of serious IMC, I'm flying something else.

My departure minimums in the 170 are also considerably different than what they would be in a more modern plane. I won't depart IFR unless I have at least circling minimums to return to the runway if my system is not functioning properly on takeoff (since I can't do a typical instrument check on the ground with the venturi system).

Plus.....alot of times out here in the Southwest, where 99% of the flying is in VMC, I just like to be able to enjoy the priority that IFR offers over the VFR traffic.

 

[Tom-D]

I guess this would be a great time to introduce you guys to my favorite ride, N6988S, is a 1968 Cessna 150 H.

A friend and I bought it from NAVY surplus in 1994, we paid $2777.77 for it on sealed bid, it came to us in 3 big wooden boxes, and we discovered that it was not much more than a empty shell of a 150.

we emptied the boxes and sold the Philippine Mahogany boards to the local boat builder supply shop for 8k.

and used that money to get started to restore the aircraft from the inside out, with all new instruments and gauges, radios are a single KY97, Transponder with Mode C. and a 2 place intercom, ELT is a 121.5/243 ACK using "D" cells.

the engine was but a set of cases, so we bought all new parts to build a 0-200, using early Superior cylinders, new carb, new slicks with harness, new alternator, oil pump, vac pump, and all new wiring. TSMO 550

The airframe got stripped, cleaned inside and out, etched and primed with self etching primer and painted with DuPont Imron red and white, new glass all around, new antennas, all new flight control bearings and attaching hardware.

Aircraft history is:

The NAVY bought it new in 68, and sent it to Adak Flying club, where they put 150 hours on it, then it was sent to the Cubi Point flying club where they landed it on the nose wheel and bent the engine mount, they then cannibalized it to keep the other 150 flying until they shut the base and it went to the Whidbey Island flying club where they sold it to us.

3775 TT both engine and airframe 550 since major by me total restoration in 1994 +- a year. I fly this aircraft regularly, it flys hands off straight and level. uses about 6 GPH and runs smooth as a 4 banger can.

send me a PM if you are interested.

 

[Tom-D]

PS....... I'm not sure the hand held GPS goes with it or not. I'm posting it for a friend.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Tom, does the Airspeed Indicator work?

Sorry...couldn't resist

 

[steingar]

I guess this would be a great time to introduce you guys to my favorite ride, N6988S, is a 1968 Cessna 150 H.

You forgot the wheel pants.

 

[TMetzinger]

Though I haven't visited him personally, the mooney owners I have met have said lots of good things about Don Maxwell's shop over in Longview, TX. www.donmaxwell.com should get you to the correct web page for info.

I agree with you, Doc, that a thorough checkout of the aircraft by the right person/shop can make a world of difference in the purchasing experience. If the OP can get himself and the Mooney to Don, he should get all the right answers needed about the aircraft.

For Mooney's, he's at the top of the heap, no doubt. Just don't mention speedo's.

 

[Tom-D]

Tom, does the Airspeed Indicator work?

Sorry...couldn't resist

Yes and the fed guy rides with me.

 

[Tom-D]

You forgot the wheel pants.

Can't use them when you fly to the base and must taxi over the cables. they are cheap if you need them.

 

[fukhar]

thank you everybody. i pretty much have it narrowed to 150 or 152. between the two, which would your prefer? engine and maintenance is very important to me. will they both make it to TBO? what are your thoughts?

 

[Tom-D]

thank you everybody. i pretty much have it narrowed to 150 or 152. between the two, which would your prefer? engine and maintenance is very important to me. will they both make it to TBO? what are your thoughts?

the 150 is cheaper to run, the Cont. 0-200 overhaul is cheaper than the Lycoming 0-235, and the aircraft are lighter and have a better useful load than the 152.

basically the same airframe except the 152 is heavier.

150- = the C-0-200
152 = the 0-235-L2C

Do not buy an aerobat.......

 

[fukhar]

how come no aerobat?
which 150 should i look at? so many models!

 

[Tom-D]

Continental 0-200, has a gear driven alternator, and I have never seen a gear train fail.the cylinder cost is much cheaper and usually have a mid life crises, with valves running on 100LL. but now the engine can be updated by simply placing a IO-240 on the mounts as an authorized replacement. bye bye carb icing

the Lycoming 0-235, has a belt driven alternator, and the belt does slip and fail often, and the prop must be removed to change the belt.If the belt is too loose it slips, if it is too tight it wears the alternator bearings, the cylinders cost about $1000 each new, and the mandatory parts replacement called out in the overhaul manual runs the overhaul cost off the scale.

But If you are going to buy a good one, train in it and sell it 500 hours later who cares?

 

[Tom-D]

how come no aerobat?
which 150 should i look at? so many models!

they are heavy and feel like flying a slug.

 

[Tom-D]

how come no aerobat?
which 150 should i look at? so many models!

any thing that fits the bill, except the early ones that will not allow a center stack radio set.

 

[fukhar]

what do you consider early? they all more or less fit the bill, the question is if there is any preferable model..

 

[Tom-D]

what do you consider early? they all more or less fit the bill, the question is if there is any preferable model..

I like the 68s and later H-M

This is a M, it needs paint and interior, and Radios, it has nothing now. you would need a Garmin, 430, plus a transponder with mode C and a intercm.

 

[MBDiagMan]

what do you consider early? they all more or less fit the bill, the question is if there is any preferable model..

I am a rookie, but from what I've read, you REALLY should have a six pack and center stack for your IR training.

The majority of my training has been in 150's with an hour in a 152 plus a few other types. The 150, at least the ones that I flew were nimble compared to the particular 152 that I flew.

The 150's are less expensive to purchase and I think less expensive to maintain and operate. I have enough love for the 150 that I ended up buying a 140, which in the air flies very much the same.

I would think that if you decide on a 150, the selection will be better than almost anything else you could choose. Do lots of research and FOR SURE pay for a prebuy inspection done by someone you trust.

I fully expect that there are multiple 150's out there for sale that will fill the bill for you. When negotiating for one, REMEMBER, it's a buyers market right now.

Good luck,
Doc

 

[wooley]

Hi Fukhar,

What's your immigration status. Are you here on a visa or do you have a greencard?

For the purposes of aircraft ownership, Legal Permanent Residents (greencard holders) are considered citizens (FAR 47.2 and 47.3).

Just FYI - don't knowif it applies to you.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Here you go:

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_560059_Very+clean+Cessna+152+II.html

 

[jason]

Here you go:

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_560059_Very+clean+Cessna+152+II.html

That's a nice looking 152...that would be fun to fly around and use for instrument work.

You could probably get it for $20k with that engine and airframe time.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

That's a nice looking 152...that would be fun to fly around and use for instrument work.

You could probably get it for $20k with that engine and airframe time.

It's the cleanest example I've seen in a LONG time...

 

[Challenged]

Hey, it's my plane! I don't particularly care to sell it, but my wife is practically begging me to get a four seater, and I don't think I should pass up the opportunity to buy a bigger airplane.