Economical Time Builder?

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fukhar

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Fukhar
Hello again - I am looking into purchasing an economical (annual, fuel insurance and maintenance - wise) time builder. 2 seaters are fine, but i only know of 150/152's. airplane must be IFR equipped because i want to get my instrument rating on it. preferably at or under 20K, the lower the better obviously. i just want to buy a plane, put 200-300 hours on it and sell it..

open to suggestions - thank you!
 
Getting a good IFR training plane for less than 20K may be difficult. But the good news is that if you buy a $40K IFR training plane you won't lose much money on it when you sell it 300 hours later.
 
thank you tim - problem is i cannot afford $40K out of pocket and i am unable to get financing because i am not a us-citizen. any other ideas?
 
Partnership. Find two other dudes like you and get a 172/182.
 
you should be able to find a basic IFR 150 with a mid time engine for 15-20K
 
partnership is not an option for me unfortunately, i live in a secluded area and there are barely any pilots here..

other than the cessna's, are there any other economical airplane i should consider?
 
Tomahawk, Skipper, 150/152. The IFR part is the problem. Most of these are VFR trainers.
 
fukhar said:
partnership is not an option for me unfortunately, i live in a secluded area and there are barely any pilots here..

other than the cessna's, are there any other economical airplane i should consider?
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Don't rule out some of the older (as in 1940-1960) 2-seaters- Cessna 140s and Luscombe 8s are still available at surprising prices, and are extremely economical to operate... and the maintenance, with the right airplane, is not as big a deal as you might expect with a 50+-yr-old aircraft. A "cheap" 150 that has been abused doing flight school duty all its life is no bargain, and some of the old 2-seat taildraggers have low-time airframes that are well-kept and require very little maintenance on their simpler systems. Never flown a Luscombe, but the "quirks" you may have heard of are mythical (ask any Luscombe owner), and a Cessna 140 is really just an early 150 with a tailwheel, at least the "A" model is. Same wing, same center section. I've flown 140s, and they fly just like 150s.

I've seen some with IFR setups adequate for IR training and "lite" IFR, and no, they don't all have fabric wings, nor do they all have a bazillion hours on them. Many are also able to use auto fuel (assuming you can get some without all the ethanol in it), which can save a lot of money. As it is, the 75 and 85-hp 2-seaters will burn 4-6 gph, and some, the Luscombes especially, can outperform a 150. The later 140As and Luscombe 8Fs also have flaps... manual, of course, which means no motors, wiring, etc associated with that.

Naturally, you'll see some really fine ones out of your price range, but like 150s, there are some decent IFR-equipped ones that are very affordable.

They are, of course, taildraggers, but learning to handle them is not a big deal. And no nosewheel strut/mounts/shimmy damper to worry about ($$). ;)

You can see a couple examples of what I'm describing here... look under "Antique/classic" and "Taildragger".

http://www.barnstormers.com/cat.php?mode=listing&main=
 
I bought a Cessna 140 with an updated panel; six pack, center stack full engine instrumentation and dual VOR's with glide slope, localizer.... In the air it flies very much like a 150. Some folks say that a 140, 150 or 152 are not an adequately stable platform for IMC, but there seem to be plenty of people that chime in and say that they got their IR in one of these birds. In my case I am only looking for the IR, not flight in IMC.

The 140 has quite a cult following, thus should be a sellable plane when the time comes. I paid not much more than what you are stating as your budget. They are slightly too heavy to be LSA so this has kept their cost relatively low.

You can learn more at Cessna120-140 dot com. This is the club website and provides a WEALTH of information about these fun little birds.

My $0.02,
Doc
 
MBDiagMan said:
Some folks say that a 140, 150 or 152 are not an adequately stable platform for IMC, but there seem to be plenty of people that chime in and say that they got their IR in one of these birds. In my case I am only looking for the IR, not flight in IMC.
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Folks that say it isn't stable enough just don't want to have to work.

Truth is, that sure little planes like 140s and 150s (and even my 170) will get tossed around alot more, but that is what makes them great trainers. If you can fly an ILS or VOR approach to standards in a 140 or 150, you will have no trouble at all in anything larger.

Only trouble with a 140, is finding one that is IFR legal. That could be tough. Probably have a better chance at finding a 150/152 that is IFR capable since they were pretty common instrument trainers in the 60's and 70's.
 
Shouldn't be that hard to find a Thorp (with no "e") T-18 with an IFR panel. Low cost to run and mainatain (no one is going to make you change the prop because it has the wrong part number), plus a good cross country machine.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Folks that say it isn't stable enough just don't want to have to work.

Truth is, that sure little planes like 140s and 150s (and even my 170) will get tossed around alot more, but that is what makes them great trainers. If you can fly an ILS or VOR approach to standards in a 140 or 150, you will have no trouble at all in anything larger.

Only trouble with a 140, is finding one that is IFR legal. That could be tough. Probably have a better chance at finding a 150/152 that is IFR capable since they were pretty common instrument trainers in the 60's and 70's.
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Yes, I was lucky to find my IFR 140, and I have considered that it will take me longer for the IR, but will be better trained if I can pull it off.


For the OP, when I was looking for a trainer/time builder I saw several IFR 150's for reasonable money. What condition were they in? Don't know, but if you are willing to train in a 150, I think there's a plane out there that will fill the bill. The challenge is finding a good one.

Doc
 
I have an extremely clean, IFR capable 152 that I'll sell you for about 25k..my wife is practically begging me to get a four seater instead so she can pack more luggage on our trips.
 
There are also two IFR Cessna 140's on there, one of them even with a DME. They are also about 5.5 to 6 GPH. If you're wanting to build time cheap, make sure you take fuel consumption into account.

If your reason for buying a time builder is to get your IR, make sure the plane has enough equipment to do your three different approaches for the check ride. If you have to add any avionics, it will spoil the budget for your purposes. Another possibility would be to buy a good, solid, but inexpensive 150 and put in a panel GPS like a Garmin 430W. These can be had now on the used market for about $7,000.

If you find a plane that looks like a good candidate, talk to your local avionics guy before buying it. He can tell you if you need to add anything and if so, what the cost will be. You don't want to lay out a bunch of money only to find that it won't get the job done.

Doc
 
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I am a foreigner (now on a green card, but was on an H1B visa).. I had no problem getting a mortgage or loans for vehicles etc. Probably due to the dual intent visa.

That being said, you could always get a small loan from your home country to add to the 20K you have and then get that 35K IFR platform.

In the case of aircraft registration, just start an LLC. Don't bother with a DE or AZ LLC with foreign filing where you are... just make an LLC where you are.

Have a US partner as a "member", they can have 1%.

Cheers
 
Buy this,@10k, put a used KX170 with a 209 nav head, and an old ADF and yer good to go under budget..
 

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Tom-D said:
Buy this,@10k, put a used KX170 with a 209 nav head, and an old ADF and yer good to go under budget..
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Tom's got a good point - as long as you have reasonable expectations (ie not looking to put in a Garmin 430 or HSI and state of the art radios) you can often take older VFR only planes and get them legal to fly IFR without that much expense. Lots of refurbished/overhauled avionics out there at a fraction of the cost of new stuff.

That's basically what I'm doing with my '48 170 right now.
 
that is actually not a bad idea at all. i like it!

where can i read up on avionics etc? will a 430 be enough to do 3 different approaches? what else is required other than the 430 gps itself?
i have never dealt with avionics before :(
 
There are plenty of IFR 150's out there, I bought mine for $18.5k flew it for over a year and sold it for $1000 more than I paid for it.
 
fukhar said:
that is actually not a bad idea at all. i like it!

where can i read up on avionics etc? will a 430 be enough to do 3 different approaches? what else is required other than the 430 gps itself?
i have never dealt with avionics before :(
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You can do RNAV, VOR, LOC, and ILS approaches with a 430 (it has a nav radio). So yes, it'll do.
 
what do you think? i have been offered a lease on a 1962 mooney m20c.
i am interested because i can carry passengers as well as build timeand not worry about owning as a non-us citizen etc.
the mooney is ifr but hasn't been annualed it 3 years so will probably require a $3,000 annual, and am ELT battery and IFR certification so forth which i will have to pay.
the offer is $400 a month, plus i pay everything (maintenance annual tie down and insurance).
how much would the insurance be? i have 0 retract time, 80tt and no incidents at all.

the airplane's description:
1962 M20C - 160 mph on 9.0 gph, new leather interior 2006, outside 8, complete logs 4158-TTAF, 1728-SMOH. Fresh annual 3/07. IFR Certified, King KX155 Nav/Com, Dual VOR's(Localizer and glideslope on Nav 1), Apollo GX55 GPS (IFR terminal and enroute certified), New Audio Panel, Marker Beacons, ADF, CD Player and MP3 hookup.

i would probably do the lease until the engine reaches it overhaul (at 100hrs a year, around 3 years).

what do you think?
 
jesse said:
You can do RNAV, VOR, LOC, and ILS approaches with a 430 (it has a nav radio). So yes, it'll do.
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Keep in mind though a 430 and all the stuff you need with it is going to cost quite a bit for both the unit, CDIs and the install.

Depending on what is already installed, you may have a better deal going to a 430, or you may just want to install old style used avionics.

My 170 already had all of the required gyro instruments, two comm radios and two nav radios - only thing I needed was two used CDI's and a panel mounted clock plus a altimeter static check to make it IFR legal.

It was relatively cheap to make my VFR only plane IFR capable and when all is said and done, I'll probably be able to sell my plane for about what I put into it. There is no way I could ever recover the cost of a 430 install on resale. Just wouldn't have been worth it.
 
fukhar said:
the mooney is ifr but hasn't been annualed it 3 years so will probably require a $3,000 annual, and am ELT battery and IFR certification so forth which i will have to pay.
the offer is $400 a month, plus i pay everything (maintenance annual tie down and insurance).
how much would the insurance be? i have 0 retract time, 80tt and no incidents at all.
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Really hard to say, but I'd be very cautious - If it has been out of annual for 3 years, and based on the terms of the lease, it could easily cost you well more than 3K to get it airworthy again. Tough thing is that per the terms of the lease as you have described, YOU are on the hook to fix what needs to be fixed to get the airplane back in the air.

It might work out.....or you could end up waiting 5 months for everything to be addressed and fixed while still paying your monhtly lease payment and then get hit with a 5 grand or more bill from the A&P. Personally, I'd stay away unless I knew the owner and the aircraft's history and circumstances REALLY well.

Also, with such low time and no complex/retract time/endorsement, insurance could be really high. I'd say it is definitely going to be more than 2k per year could be a whole lot more.
 
fukhar said:
the thing is about the 430 is that i can buy a used one and then sell it separately of the airplane.
for example if i buy this - http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GARMI...#ht_500wt_1182

other than installation (which would cost how much do you think?) what else do i need? how much is a static altimeter which is also required to make the airplane IFR?
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430 installation could easily cost thousands.
 
Ive seen some surprisingly nice panels in the tomohawk/skipper fleet ....going those speeds you will certainly build time.. But prepare to roast in that bubbly canopy if you live in a hot area.
 
$10,000 for a new GNS430? How much would it be if I get a used one?
 
fukhar said:
$10,000 for a new GNS430? How much would it be if I get a used one?
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No. $10,000 for the _installation_ of one you already have. It's variable, of course, but that's not at all out of line for a 430. Wiring, trays, GPS antenna, presumably a compatible CDI, etc. And the installation has to certified for IFR GPS. I've heard of $15,000 for the installation at the high end.

John
 
taters said:
Ive seen some surprisingly nice panels in the tomohawk/skipper fleet ....going those speeds you will certainly build time.. But prepare to roast in that bubbly canopy if you live in a hot area.
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I trained in Tomahawks in Texas - and they're just fine here.

Ryan
 
jsstevens said:
No. $10,000 for the _installation_ of one you already have. It's variable, of course, but that's not at all out of line for a 430. Wiring, trays, GPS antenna, presumably a compatible CDI, etc. And the installation has to certified for IFR GPS. I've heard of $15,000 for the installation at the high end.

John
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10,000 for an install? I think that is the price of the unit with install. I've got a 530W im gonna put in my plane and installed it will be around 12,000 with the unit price included.
 
thank you so much guys, how generally possible is it to convert a non-ifr airplane to become ifr certified?
how much is the altimeter static thing? what else is required other than the avionics listed above?
 
You have fallen for the same thing most of us fall for. You start looking, and the first thing you know you are looking at way more airplane than you can afford. It is easy to do!
 
haha yes. i dont need the airplane to be ifr right now, but i would like in the next 6 months to put some ifr equipment in it if such a conversion (vfr to ifr) is not too complicated / expensive - is it?
 
fukhar said:
thank you so much guys, how generally possible is it to convert a non-ifr airplane to become ifr certified?
how much is the altimeter static thing? what else is required other than the avionics listed above?
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It's about $150.00 USD around here.

you need a heated Pitot tube.

and the equipment to ......comply with 91.167---91.171

plus a transponder with mode C.

and the equipment required in 91.205

2) Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.
 
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