DuPuis Family Cobra Build

[3393RP]

Ted, you know enough about cars and engines to understand what you have is suspect in many ways. You'll have to be diligent about verifying that it's all going to work together. People without the proper knowledge have thrown the engine together, probably without regard to basic procedures.

You cannot assume any parts on the engine, especially aftermarket parts, are compatible. Find the block casting numbers, and look at everything. Because of what you have already found, it's all suspect.

The coolant in the cylinders may be from using incorrect head gaskets. First you have to check the block casting numbers to make sure you have the correct compatible heads, then verify what gaskets to use. Are the head bolts correct? Are they reusable or torque to yield? How about the balancer bolt?

The bent push rods are really bent. Did they come from the "clean" cylinder? Looks like an assembly error, which could be a list of things from a piston installed 180 out to a random set of offset valve locks mistakenly used. What are the rocker ratios? Was the cam lift chosen for 1.6:1 rockers but the installed rockers 1.7:1? Cam timing wrong? Likely to have hit the piston on the first compression stroke after reassembly.

Ditch the flat tappet cam for a hydraulic roller set including springs. The benefits should be obvious with your knowledge. Check the pushrod length, piston/valve clearance, and valve tip/rocker geometry. You might need to machine or shim the spring seats. Look at the spring seats to see if someone has modified them. Check for offset locks. Be suspicious about the entire valvetrain.

Contact Edelbrock to see if the heads were sold with the installed valves and springs. Use that information to talk to them about a cam/lifter/springs coordinated kit. Is the distributor gear the correct size/teeth/material for the cam you will choose?

I agree that the lack of cylinder crosshatching is unusual. You have to verify all rotating assembly measurements and weights. Find a machine shop that knows what's supposed to be there and verify it's correct. Gotta hot tank the block, debris can make for an expensive do-over. Oil pump? Pickup tube length and location? Dipstick length and markings?

Nothing wrong with using the Edelbrock carb, but I would confirm it hasn't been opened up and messed with. I would get a dual plane Performer intake. What you have won't work for your planned driving conditions and use.

You'll have to check the accessories and drive pulleys for correct parts and alignment.

Is the flexplate correct for the engine? Are the starter and flexplate compatible? Is the water pump correct?

This are just the things that have popped into my head. Obviously you want everything correct before installing the engine. Do-overs are never fun.

 

[FormerHangie]

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hpb-hp89/overview/

https://www.jegs.com/p/HP-Books/HP-...ldups/1151909/10002/-1?Ns=P_Margin|0||P_SKU|0

 

[weilke]

Let's say I'd bought the Edelbrock Performer power pack (heads/intake/cam), that would've been about $2500. Figure $300 for the Explorer engine, another $400 for the carb, sell some stuff off the Explorer engine, some machine shop work, come in around $3000-3500 for the engine probably at the end of the day. So I've got a lot of room with this package to still come out ahead, and I'll be selling parts off of the Mustang (and at some point the entire car itself).

An unmolested 302 ATK crate engine as starting point for your build lists at $2890. At least it would have run.

 

[Ted]

A full service automotive machine shop should be able to pressure test your cylinder heads. If they're ok, and the bottom end of the block is OK, they can pressure test it as well.

I would start by putting some solvent into the ports to see if it leaks through.

Full disassembly. Inspect them yourself. As you’re doing. Anything that looks ok, take to machine shop to test block, heads, crank, rods, pistons, rings for cracks, clearance, etc.

Cam & lifters- unless they’re new and weren’t run, and it’s the grind you want/need, sell and buy what you want.

Coolant leak- not sure about the Ford block, but sometimes some head bolts/studs may need sealant, so that could be the cause.

Coolant mixed with oil will look like chocolate milk shake or coffee with creamer (if it’s sat a while may have separated out). If it ran with the coolant leak, bearings may show it.

Bent pushrod - best case is it was a geometry issue and the side of the pushrod touched the head (they can’t take a side load). Watch for coil spring stacking solid (cam lift, rocker ratio, shimming/wrong retainer, etc.). If you don’t see piston head contact, shop will tell you if valves are straight.

That’s all I got for now.

If the block is bored .040 over and you don’t see any cross hatched honing, the block is done. It likely wasn’t honed correctly. No point in taking a chance on not getting the rings to seal, and I don’t believe there’s enough material left to do another bore and hone to the block.

Ted, you know enough about cars and engines to understand what you have is suspect in many ways. You'll have to be diligent about verifying that it's all going to work together. People without the proper knowledge have thrown the engine together, probably without regard to basic procedures.

You cannot assume any parts on the engine, especially aftermarket parts, are compatible. Find the block casting numbers, and look at everything. Because of what you have already found, it's all suspect.

The coolant in the cylinders may be from using incorrect head gaskets. First you have to check the block casting numbers to make sure you have the correct compatible heads, then verify what gaskets to use. Are the head bolts correct? Are they reusable or torque to yield? How about the balancer bolt?

The bent push rods are really bent. Did they come from the "clean" cylinder? Looks like an assembly error, which could be a list of things from a piston installed 180 out to a random set of offset valve locks mistakenly used. What are the rocker ratios? Was the cam lift chosen for 1.6:1 rockers but the installed rockers 1.7:1? Cam timing wrong? Likely to have hit the piston on the first compression stroke after reassembly.

Ditch the flat tappet cam for a hydraulic roller set including springs. The benefits should be obvious with your knowledge. Check the pushrod length, piston/valve clearance, and valve tip/rocker geometry. You might need to machine or shim the spring seats. Look at the spring seats to see if someone has modified them. Check for offset locks. Be suspicious about the entire valvetrain.

Contact Edelbrock to see if the heads were sold with the installed valves and springs. Use that information to talk to them about a cam/lifter/springs coordinated kit. Is the distributor gear the correct size/teeth/material for the cam you will choose?

I agree that the lack of cylinder crosshatching is unusual. You have to verify all rotating assembly measurements and weights. Find a machine shop that knows what's supposed to be there and verify it's correct. Gotta hot tank the block, debris can make for an expensive do-over. Oil pump? Pickup tube length and location? Dipstick length and markings?

Nothing wrong with using the Edelbrock carb, but I would confirm it hasn't been opened up and messed with. I would get a dual plane Performer intake. What you have won't work for your planned driving conditions and use.

You'll have to check the accessories and drive pulleys for correct parts and alignment.

Is the flexplate correct for the engine? Are the starter and flexplate compatible? Is the water pump correct?

This are just the things that have popped into my head. Obviously you want everything correct before installing the engine. Do-overs are never fun.

There are some great points here.

I'm outright throwing away a lot of things that come off the engine such as the water pump. The flexplate I'll sell or give away with the transmission (one of the two). I'm putting a manual in so a flexplate doesn't do me any good. The starter might be something usable but I'm not going to use it.

The car came with a new Accel distributor. I've never been a fan of Accel, so I'll probably sell that. Thinking I might also sell the intake, carb, headers, and cam, but need to think on that some more. The prospect of someone having messed with the carb is an issue. The rockers, I'm going to talk to Edelbrock about. It wouldn't surprise me if the lack of pushrod guides with that high of lift and those rockers caused the bent pushrod... combined with not adjusting the things properly.

The block, good question, but I am thinking it's likely toast at 40 over with no cross hatching in the cylinders. But if the rotating assembly has the potential to be reused, blocks are easy enough to come by. I do expect the dent in the oil pan has the ability to get hammered out. Now one question is whether the thing is acceptable or if it'll have fitment issues. I'll need to look into that to determine, and see what's in the bottom end. One it's all torn down I should be able to figure out easily enough and see what might be worth using. The inners besides the pistons are an unknown. I doubt I'll get much progress made tonight, but maybe. I still need to pull the transmission off and then get the thing up on an engine stand. Well, I guess some longer bolts would help for that.

I bought the thing assuming that the heads would be all I could use, and then get some money out of the rest of it. So far, that still seems to be the case, and also the rear end is something that's potentially usable.

 

[Arbiter419]

This project interests me greatly, definitely following along here and on FB!

 

[SoonerAviator]

Side note: the 302 used two different counterweights for the flexplate/harmonic balancer depending on year (50oz vs 28oz maybe?). Be sure to verify which model you have so that you match them. Otherwise you're going to get a vibration from hell, lol.

 

[Ted]

Side note: the 302 used two different counterweights for the flexplate/harmonic balancer depending on year (50oz vs 28oz maybe?). Be sure to verify which model you have so that you match them. Otherwise you're going to get a vibration from hell, lol.

That was a thought I had as well...

 

[3393RP]

That was a thought I had as well...

I was trying to touch on all the things that could bite. Incompatible distributor/cam gear metallurgy is a good example.

If the distributor gear gets chewed up, there's no remedy except a complete teardown to remove the debris.

But you have a good handle on it.

 

[Ted]

I was trying to touch on all the things that could bite. Incompatible distributor/cam gear metallurgy is a good example.

If the distributor gear gets chewed up, there's no remedy except a complete teardown to remove the debris.

But you have a good handle on it.

It will be interesting to see what the cam itself looks like when I pull it. The distributor looks brand new, and I expect the cam will, too. But we'll find out if I'm right.

 

[3393RP]

This would have been right in Ben Haas's wheelhouse. The guy knew his stuff, and obviously had significant knowledge about Ford small block engines.

 

[Ted]

This would have been right in Ben Haas's wheelhouse. The guy knew his stuff, and obviously had significant knowledge about Ford small block engines.

I've been thinking that a lot. Would've loved to been able to consult Ben on the build.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Ok, since we're all full of opinions, I got one too. Are there significant ridges at the tops of the bores, like can you catch a nail? If not, can you lay hands on a bore gauge? If the holes are straight and true, a machine shop can put a fine hone on the cylinders, cost you about .001-2 of wall. You'd have to buy file to fit rings, and it might cost ya a couple bucks, but at least you'll know what you have.
Measure it before you do anything else. If the holes mic bad, trash it.

 

[Ted]

Ok, since we're all full of opinions, I got one too. Are there significant ridges at the tops of the bores, like can you catch a nail? If not, can you lay hands on a bore gauge? If the holes are straight and true, a machine shop can put a fine hone on the cylinders, cost you about .001-2 of wall. You'd have to buy file to fit rings, and it might cost ya a couple bucks, but at least you'll know what you have.
Measure it before you do anything else. If the holes mic bad, trash it.

I'll double check that this evening. I think the answer is that there aren't any ridges like that.

Maybe I'll try pulling the cam, too...

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Well....that was fun.

 

[Ted]

Did more digging into the engine today. Got the transmission off and looked at more items.

First, there’s no significant ridge on the cylinder walls. Nothing that can catch my finger nail. So maybe they could be finish honed.

I looked at the rockers and saw about 1/3 of them had marks on the valve end showing that they got off Center and hit the valve stems in the wrong spot. So there you have it, probably why the pushrods were bent.

One rocker had wear on the top, I think the valve covers had a low spot that caused that.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Wow. The question I have is how those rockers could be so far off center. That'd be kind of hard to do, even if you worked at it, unless they ran it before everything was buttoned up.

 

[SCCutler]

Wow. The question I have is how those rockers could be so far off center. That'd be kind of hard to do, even if you worked at it, unless they ran it before everything was buttoned up.

Stranger things have happened...

 

[Ted]

Wow. The question I have is how those rockers could be so far off center. That'd be kind of hard to do, even if you worked at it, unless they ran it before everything was buttoned up.

Some of these rockers were VERY loose when I pulled a valve cover and looked at it. Not adjusted correctly at all, and it's entirely possible that it has the wrong pushrods. So yeah, that's my guess as to why.

The damage is such that I suspect the rockers could still actually be used. The rollers still work just fine, everything is on-center. What I need to do next is pull the cam and look at it... that might give me some more clues as to what happened regarding the coolant leaking. I'm still thinking the intake gaskets being incorrectly installed are the most likely root cause. And since I want a roller cam anyway, that helps quite a bit.

My hope is to get the engine on a stand this evening, and maybe even get the oil pan off. I'm REALLY curious as to what's inside...

I didn't get a picture of this but should have. A large part of the build is doing this with the kids, and so far that seems to be working. Last night my girls were pulling lifters in their unicorn dresses. It was great.

 

[3393RP]

Wow. The question I have is how those rockers could be so far off center. That'd be kind of hard to do, even if you worked at it, unless they ran it before everything was buttoned up.

Ted's engine has all the clues of a credit card, phone, and Summit Racing website build.

 

[Ted]

Ted's engine has all the clues of a credit card, phone, and Summit Racing website build.

I'm thinking. I'll be really curious what's in the bottom end. They said "$3500 invested" when I bought it. So far I'm counting up about $2k-$2500.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

I bet the blocked was decked and or the heads shaved to such an extent that the intake mating surface geometry is off a couple degrees, causing the gaskets not to seal. Are the coolant holes the same size, meaning is the intake the correct part for the block/heads? IIRC, the earlier stuff was different.

 

[Ted]

I bet the blocked was decked and or the heads shaved to such an extent that the intake mating surface geometry is off a couple degrees, causing the gaskets not to seal. Are the coolant holes the same size, meaning is the intake the correct part for the block/heads? IIRC, the earlier stuff was different.

I'll check the coolant holes, that's a good question. Also good question on the block decked/heads shaved etc.

 

[Rod Broberg]

Ted,

I'm curious about the rockers being out of alignment. There should be guide plates for the pushrods, were they there?

 

[Ted]

Ted,

I'm curious about the rockers being out of alignment. There should be guide plates for the pushrods, were they there?

There were no pushrod guide plates in place. As @3393RP said, this screams "I have a credit card and a Summit Racing catalog" build. I'm thinking they didn't even use hardened pushrods judging from the bend, or didn't understand the importance of pushrod guide plates.

 

[Ted]

Oh, and who on earth puts platinum plugs in a 302?!

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

I bet the blocked was decked and or the heads shaved to such an extent that the intake mating surface geometry is off a couple degrees, causing the gaskets not to seal. Are the coolant holes the same size, meaning is the intake the correct part for the block/heads? IIRC, the earlier stuff was different.

Now that makes sense, and hence the possible valvetrain geometry issues.

Almost looks like the rockers touched the top of the retainer or “slid” sideways off the valve tip and touched the tip with the edges. No reason to do this on a shaftless rocker, but check to see if the valve seats were cut or just sunk into the head and the valve tips adjusted accordingly; then the spring shimmed (over shimmed) to get back to the proper height. Not as far fetched as it sounds.

 

[Ted]

Ok, oil pan is off.

Bets on what’s inside before I spill the beans?

 

[weilke]

Little chunks and bent con-rods.

 

[Ted]

Little chunks and bent con-rods.

None of those observed, fortunately.

 

[kyleb]

Ok, oil pan is off.

Bets on what’s inside before I spill the beans?

Jimmy Hoffa?

Amelia?

L'Oiseau Blanc?

 

[Chip Sylverne]

A never primed Melling high-volume pump. Or better yet, where they jacked the pan pan pushed right up against the pick-up screen.

 

[Ted]

I needed to take a few more pictures anyway, and the suggestions gave me more things to look at.

I was hoping for some nice H-beam rods, but no evidence of those. The oil pump looks new, probably never primed. All I saw was “415” on one side and “USA” on the other, see photo.

The crank and rods don’t look special but I haven’t gotten them removed. From one skirt sticking out it did seem that the friction coating is still there, although at least slightly rubbed off.

The Center main bearing (which seems to have the thrust bearing portion) looks new. Haven’t pulled the caps yet.

The oil pickup... yeah... that looks very rigged. The pickup was facing up at a 45 degree angle and there are hose clamps holding a tube to the oil pump. That don’t look right at all. Looks rigged.

From what I can tell the oil sump is a 7 quart Milodon, good size. I need to confirm it will fit in the Cobra.

It does look as though the timing chain is new.

Next steps: pull cam and rotating assembly. Also need to decode the numbers from the block.

 

[weilke]

$3500 in the bottom end. Those must be some expensive hose clamps to go with the home depot copper pipe.

I would say the fact that they never got this franken-engine to run is a good thing. That way at least a couple of parts are re-usable.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Cam lobe seen between #3 @ #4 cyl has some wear pattern.

What’s the red behind #8, RTV?

Do the stamped numbers on the rod and rod cap match? I couldn’t tell, as it looked like one side was not matched with a stamp.

That’s a NASCAR extended oil pick up. You also leave the hose clamps loose enough so the pickup can swing around with the oil for road courses so you don’t have starvation issues around turns. Yeah, that’s the ticket.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

What’s the red behind #8, RTV?

Almost looks like farm store grease, er, assy lube... Brazing a pickup tube was apparently beyond their skill set.

 

[SCCutler]

So far, looks like you have some useful parts'n'pieces.

 

[Ted]

$3500 in the bottom end. Those must be some expensive hose clamps to go with the home depot copper pipe.

I would say the fact that they never got this franken-engine to run is a good thing. That way at least a couple of parts are re-usable.

The fact that the engine had never been made to run was, in this situation, a positive for me and part of the reason that I bought the engine. All the evidence points to the engine never having run, but then some idiot apparently put used oil in since it was dark when it came out. Well, the guy who built this thing was, in fact, an idiot. We knew this already and I knew it after looking at the engine for not too long.

The $3500 still may not be too far off, just built by an idiot. I'm not sure what cam he put in, but in the heads, intake, carb, distributor I'm counting something on the order of $2500-$3k. Still don't know if the rods and crank are anything special.

Cam lobe seen between #3 @ #4 cyl has some wear pattern.

What’s the red behind #8, RTV?

Do the stamped numbers on the rod and rod cap match? I couldn’t tell, as it looked like one side was not matched with a stamp.

That’s a NASCAR extended oil pick up. You also leave the hose clamps loose enough so the pickup can swing around with the oil for road courses so you don’t have starvation issues around turns. Yeah, that’s the ticket.

Good catch on the wear pattern. To be honest I hadn't looked at the cam at all since I was planning on pulling it today (or whenever I get around to it).

So far, looks like you have some useful parts'n'pieces.

My goal was to at least have the heads be useful, and I think that's still probably the case.

Decoding the engine casting numbers, it looks as though it's a 78 302 out of a Lincoln. It's a D8VE-6015-A3A block. Looking up, this is apparently a very good block to have:

http://www.therangerstation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114237

https://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8-engine-tech/1381662-d8ve-6015-a3a-same-mexican-block.html

At first I was a bit disappointed at this block being a 78 and a non-roller block, but this looks like I may have scored pretty well. This is supposedly one of the heavyweight "Mexican clone" blocks. Lots of references to being able to bore it 60 over successfully. For how I'm going to be using the engine, I wouldn't be too worried about that if it's 40 over now. Need new pistons but those are easy enough.

If the crank and rods look good, buy a set of 60 over pistons and be set with a 311 cube motor that should breathe and rev pretty well. Oh, and put it together PROPERLY. Then I could get some dome pistons to increase the compression a bit since the current pistons are still in the low 8:1 range, and I want higher than that - especially with aluminum heads.

The question mentioned above about whether the engine was decked too much or the heads shaved too much to screw up geometry is a good question and something that'll need to get checked. Hopefully it's usable and I'll have to check those.

I need to get things a bit more torn apart and then I figure I'll make some calls to the tech folks to get more info.

 

[Sam D]

I don’t know why I’m drawn to this thread, but I am.

For me, it’s like watching a foreign film where you barely speak the language.

 

[ja_user]

Useless Comment, so I get thread updates.

 

[FormerHangie]

I don’t know why I’m drawn to this thread, but I am.

For me, it’s like watching a foreign film where you barely speak the language.

It's because you have a long repressed desire to be a gearhead. My advice is to embrace it and start thinking about a project.