Dual Garmin G5s IFR panel?

Q

questionable

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Nov 1, 2023
Messages
6
Display Name
Display name:
questionable
Is this a valid IFR panel for an experimental airplane? What's wrong with me?


Garmin G5 PFD/ADI: primary display / attitude airspeed altitude turn slip
Garmin G5 HSI: horizontal situation cdi
Garmin GNC 255: nav com standby monitor intercom cdi
Garmin GNX 375: gps transponder ads-b in out cdi
Elec Intl CGR-30P: engine monitor tach temp fuel
Clock: it's a clock


Photoshopped this into a 10 inch X 8 inch space.

panel-jpg.122009



Couldn't find an example of dual G5s as primaries without other redundancies, hence the question. You'd need to know the secondary functions of each item like the back of your hand. (see scenarios below)


I expect a lot of complaints based on my research on this forum and elsewhere.

Each G5 replaces only one six-pack instrument: Nope, that's for certified aircraft STCs! See the G5 primary functions in quoted text below.

A G5 is a small thing to look at: Yup.

A G5 only has one knob: Indeed.

One G3X is better and cheaper than dual G5s: Granted. Say you don't care. G5s look nice. Limited feature set. No layout choices or extensive menu systems to think about, there's just 1 way to do it.

Without autopilot you'll die: Fine, install it. The G5 apparently displays and controls autopilot. There's even a flight director! Maybe add e.g. GFC 500 autopilot buttons because one knob to rule them all gets old. Maybe not?

Backup instruments are missing so you'll die: Dead G5 -> switch the other G5 to the PFD page. Dead magnetometer -> G5s switch to GPS track. Dead GPS -> use VORs. Dead COM -> use handheld or 91.185. Dead engine monitor -> use ears. Dead alternator -> battery backups. So on. A widespread electrical failure would be terrifying but not unique to G5s.

When your GPS dies, believe it or not, you die: Meh, same as when you have only two nav radios and one dies.

Can't listen to weather without leaving ATC: Put weather in standby and use the monitor function.

Can't track one VOR while intersecting another radial: Use OBS CDI mode on the nav radio. Punch the intersecting VOR into the GPS OBS mode and use the G5 CDI.

Can't track ILS glideslope while intersecting another radial: Same trick. G5 localizer and glideslope. Use CDI mode on the GPS display.

That's fake, you can't always use GPS as your NAV2: Guessing this isn't a practical limitation. Some people just have 1 nav radio? Anyway, not a problem unique to G5s.

Pay less if you replace X with Y: While this is sort of an exercise creating a budget panel, don't get carried away. If you replace any 1 thing in this panel for a cheaper option, does that functionally change things?

What do you mean by is this "valid": Legal. Safe. Usable in real life but missing bells and whistles.


G5 Electronic Flight Instrument Installation Manual For Experimental/LSA Aircraft 190-02072-01 February, 2022 Revision 10:
The G5 can be installed as a standalone flight display or a fully integrated backup instrument in the G3X™ system. This section contains general information as well as installation information for the G5.

3.1 Primary Functions
• Attitude (roll, pitch, and yaw)
• Air data (altitude and airspeed)
• Slip/skid and turn coordinator
• GPS (ground speed and ground track)
• Autopilot control (when installed with optional equipment)
• Optional battery backup with up to 4 hours of emergency power
• RS-232 and CAN communication interfaces
• Course and navigation display (when installed with optional equipment)
• Magnetic heading (when installed with optional equipment)
Click to expand...
 

Attachments

  • panel.jpg
    panel.jpg
    73.8 KB · Views: 358
Looks like you covered most of the arguments already. I would say that Absolutely the panel you have mapped out is a valid IFR panel. The G3X is not cheaper than 2 G5's when you add the required components. You will need the basic engine gauges, all of which are not listed, but the CGR should give you what you need (oil pressure isn't listed). I'm not sure I would do a basic IFR panel like this with a Nav radio like the GNC255. You will already have an IFR GPS. If you are hoping to use it for IFR training, then you will need the nav radio. If not, you will likely never use it. I would much sooner put in an auto pilot or a second Com radio before putting in a Nav radio if not used for training.
 
Dual G5s is a wonderful solution. Like you said, they back each other up. And they aren't so awfully small. I'd bet the actual numbers are close to the size of those on a G3X (I have both in different airplanes). A G3X isn't cheaper because it doesn't come with a backup; you still need a G5 or something.

What's that clock for? Isn't there a timer in the transponder or somewhere? If you must have a separate clock, get one with USB ports so it's at least serving some purpose.

As to the autopilot, it depends on which Experimental. I wouldn't fly my RV7 IFR without one. I do it under the hood regularly, and it's exhausting. I can't imagine doing it for real.
 
The CGR-30P screenshot you picked is not showing the primary page.

The CGR should do it all you just gotta order the right options. The one I have installed was on a carbureted engine, constant speed prop, with no fuel pump or turbocharger, nor did we did integrate the fuel quantity system into it.
 
Neat, thanks for the feedback!

Without the nav radio, what's your backup option when GPS dies? Honest question / I'd consider doing that if there's a plan

Indeed there are clocks or timers in both the radio and GPS. However. Love the look and intuitive usability of a dedicated analog clock with a sweeping second hand. Hesitant to overstretch secondary functions of other items. USB ports are a good idea. Gotta have a secondary function haha

Sounds like I need to read the CGR-30P manual but it would work

Anyone ever control autopilot solely through a G5? How does that go, usable on one knob? Bad idea?
 
What's wrong with a separate (either electric or wind-up) clock? What's wrong with not having eleventy USB and other connectors in the airplane?

There comes a point where multi-widget becomes absurd because you're trying to remember which state that instrument is in and when do I need to change it or whatever.
 
murphey said:
comes a point where multi-widget becomes absurd
Click to expand...
Yup I share that concern. I think the nav scenarios I listed would work well, but that's about my limit

odie451 said:
Have you considered GRT Avionics
Click to expand...
No but will check it out. Makes sense that most people would buy one big display from a different brand for similar or cheaper than dual G5s

Mainly asked about the G5 here because it's a somewhat novel topic. Thought this panel would be cool but couldn't find examples. The majority of discussion on G5s is either "you can only replace 1 steam gauge" or "this is a backup instrument"
 
questionable said:
Yup I share that concern. I think the nav scenarios I listed would work well, but that's about my limit


No but will check it out. Makes sense that most people would buy one big display from a different brand for similar or cheaper than dual G5s

Mainly asked about the G5 here because it's a somewhat novel topic. Thought this panel would be cool but couldn't find examples. The majority of discussion on G5s is either "you can only replace 1 steam gauge" or "this is a backup instrument"
Click to expand...
questionable said:
Is this a valid IFR panel for an experimental airplane? What's wrong with me?


Garmin G5 PFD/ADI: primary display / attitude airspeed altitude turn slip
Garmin G5 HSI: horizontal situation cdi
Garmin GNC 255: nav com standby monitor intercom cdi
Garmin GNX 375: gps transponder ads-b in out cdi
Elec Intl CGR-30P: engine monitor tach temp fuel
Clock: it's a clock


Photoshopped this into a 10 inch X 8 inch space.

panel-jpg.122009



Couldn't find an example of dual G5s as primaries without other redundancies, hence the question. You'd need to know the secondary functions of each item like the back of your hand. (see scenarios below)


I expect a lot of complaints based on my research on this forum and elsewhere.

Each G5 replaces only one six-pack instrument: Nope, that's for certified aircraft STCs! See the G5 primary functions in quoted text below.

A G5 is a small thing to look at: Yup.

A G5 only has one knob: Indeed.

One G3X is better and cheaper than dual G5s: Granted. Say you don't care. G5s look nice. Limited feature set. No layout choices or extensive menu systems to think about, there's just 1 way to do it.

Without autopilot you'll die: Fine, install it. The G5 apparently displays and controls autopilot. There's even a flight director! Maybe add e.g. GFC 500 autopilot buttons because one knob to rule them all gets old. Maybe not?

Backup instruments are missing so you'll die: Dead G5 -> switch the other G5 to the PFD page. Dead magnetometer -> G5s switch to GPS track. Dead GPS -> use VORs. Dead COM -> use handheld or 91.185. Dead engine monitor -> use ears. Dead alternator -> battery backups. So on. A widespread electrical failure would be terrifying but not unique to G5s.

When your GPS dies, believe it or not, you die: Meh, same as when you have only two nav radios and one dies.

Can't listen to weather without leaving ATC: Put weather in standby and use the monitor function.

Can't track one VOR while intersecting another radial: Use OBS CDI mode on the nav radio. Punch the intersecting VOR into the GPS OBS mode and use the G5 CDI.

Can't track ILS glideslope while intersecting another radial: Same trick. G5 localizer and glideslope. Use CDI mode on the GPS display.

That's fake, you can't always use GPS as your NAV2: Guessing this isn't a practical limitation. Some people just have 1 nav radio? Anyway, not a problem unique to G5s.

Pay less if you replace X with Y: While this is sort of an exercise creating a budget panel, don't get carried away. If you replace any 1 thing in this panel for a cheaper option, does that functionally change things?

What do you mean by is this "valid": Legal. Safe. Usable in real life but missing bells and whistles.


G5 Electronic Flight Instrument Installation Manual For Experimental/LSA Aircraft 190-02072-01 February, 2022 Revision 10:
Click to expand...
I have this set up in a Bonanza. These are so small the the ADI does not provide the visual cues that most pilots are accustomed to. I got with an instructor and got in some clouds. I had not flown in actual or simulated instruments in 3 years. I hand flew several approaches. At first, the slightest inattention or distraction from the ADI resulted in major bank and/are pitch excursions. By the end of our session I still didn’t feel like I’d be safe in clouds without an autopilot. Gonna practice more.
 
It would certainly work for IFR. But since you did ask.....
1) Yeah, I'd still want a second com. Maybe get the GTN 650xi and a GTR 225 for a second com.
2) Then a GTR 345 transponder, or a Stratus transponder.
3) Instead of the G5s maybe look at the next generation 275s.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
Dual G5s is a wonderful solution. Like you said, they back each other up. And they aren't so awfully small. I'd bet the actual numbers are close to the size of those on a G3X (I have both in different airplanes). A G3X isn't cheaper because it doesn't come with a backup; you still need a G5 or something.

What's that clock for? Isn't there a timer in the transponder or somewhere? If you must have a separate clock, get one with USB ports so it's at least serving some purpose.

As to the autopilot, it depends on which Experimental. I wouldn't fly my RV7 IFR without one. I do it under the hood regularly, and it's exhausting. I can't imagine doing it for real.
Click to expand...
For IFR you must have a clock with a second sweep hand or digital representation in view during normal operation. A timer does not qualify
 
And I believe the clock has to be always "on". Thus, having a clock / timer option that can be pulled up on a transponder or other instrument doesn't count.
 
Yes on the clock from what I understand. We have GTN650 and GTX375 both of which have timer functions (not to mention phone and tablet) but the wind up clock is still on our MEL
 
Flapswitch said:
I have this set up in a Bonanza. These are so small the the ADI does not provide the visual cues that most pilots are accustomed to. I got with an instructor and got in some clouds. I had not flown in actual or simulated instruments in 3 years. I hand flew several approaches. At first, the slightest inattention or distraction from the ADI resulted in major bank and/are pitch excursions. By the end of our session I still didn’t feel like I’d be safe in clouds without an autopilot. Gonna practice more.
Click to expand...
Nice, thanks for being a test pilot. Wouldn't a certified bonanza with G5s still have the other steam gauges though?

Anyway to your point. A standard 6 pack has the same size AI, but the other instruments do provide diverse visual cues. Pretty sure that while flying a 6 pack, consiously or unconsciously, my feedback loop is using the TC and VSI as much as the AI. Makes sense that smushing those together would make things harder. Or at least would take some getting used to, to focus so much on a single 3.5-inch square for so much information

WDD said:
1) Yeah, I'd still want a second com. Maybe get the GTN 650xi and a GTR 225 for a second com.
Click to expand...
Is your reasoning backup/safety or convenience/usability?
 
questionable said:
Anyone ever control autopilot solely through a G5? How does that go, usable on one knob? Bad idea?
Click to expand...

I could be wrong (and I've never seen an autopilot controlled exclusively through G5s), but I don't think you can arm and activate modes in the AP from a G5. You can control things like altitude pre-select, heading, nav source, vertical rates, etc. I have been using dual-G5s with a GFC 500, which I would think would have the most features, but I've never seen a way to even turn on the AP via the G5 nor how to activate any mode.

Now once the AP is active and you're tracking some kind of nav source, flying with the G5s is the bee's knees.
 
I have a simple panel in my Cessna 170 with these same instruments and am able to do light IFR without any issues. I have dual G5's. GNX375, and GNC255. Since it is a certified aircraft I'm required to have the other flight instruments and I don't have an engine monitor yet, but what you have listed looks very functional.

One thing I would definitely add is a USB charger for your phone/ipad. Another would be a CO detector. I would also consider replacing the clock with a GT-50 (clock, timer, voltage, G-meter, USB charger). You might also consider a GI-275 EIS for your engine monitor as it would work well with the rest of your Garmin suite and I think the ability to track/download the engine data to your ipad in Garmin Pilot is impressive.
 
WDD said:
And I believe the clock has to be always "on". Thus, having a clock / timer option that can be pulled up on a transponder or other instrument doesn't count.
Click to expand...
This is not correct. I think I’ve posted an FAA interpretation letter a couple of times on POA, but can’t look it back up at the moment.
 
morleyz said:
...I don't think you can arm and activate modes in the AP from a G5...
Click to expand...

I think you're right. Never did find an example of "standalone" G5 autopilot control.

G5 Electronic Flight Instrument Installation Manual For Experimental/LSA Aircraft 190-02072-01 February, 2022 Revision 10:
When installed as part of a G3X system, the G5 provides a redundant source of attitude and air data to the G3X displays, and additionally provides backup autopilot control allowing coupled GPS approaches to be flown or continued in the event the primary flight display is unavailable. When installed as a standalone system, the G5 can also perform the autopilot function.
Click to expand...

G5 User's Manual:
1.3.1 PRIMARY FUNCTIONS
...
Autopilot control (when installed with optional equipment)
Click to expand...
 
Just a public service announcement since quite a few replies mention this kit: Garmin's G5 is the most inexpensive solution for flight data logging. Works great!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top