Double Gear Up within 10 years

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by JimLahey, Oct 4, 2020.

  1. JimLahey

    JimLahey Filing Flight Plan

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    Hi everyone, I’m new to the community and looking for insight for those that have or have not purchased planes with gear up landings. I’m looking at a bird that has had 2 in the last 10 years all from pilot error. Since the last gear up, 600 hours has been flown. Looking at the logs, it seems well documented but having and IA review with me tomorrow. The plane is priced somewhat reasonable for the known damage history, but the second gear up was brought to my attention today. Not too happy about it, but won’t walk just yet.

    What’s the thoughts of the community on pursuing something like this that has it well documented and it would have a deep pre buy conducted? I’m thinking it helps a bit more with negotiations, but concerned about resale if I for some reason needed to sell in the next 2-3 years. My desire is to own for a long time, but we all know how life throws curve balls.

    I greatly appreciate any input for this situation.

    Jim
     
  2. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    My thought - 600 hours is a long time. If it is otherwise what you want, get it for a discount, sell it for a discount.
     
  3. 3393RP

    3393RP En-Route

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    Although I'm pretty much alone in this position, I consider properly repaired damage as inconsequential after time and flying hours have accumulated. Yeah, it'll have an effect on the value of the aircraft, but not more than 10% or so compared to an undamaged example. This is mostly contingent on what was done to the engine and propeller after the incident.

    The discount realized at purchase will also be in play at the resale, so you shouldn't be at a disadvantage when that time comes.
     
  4. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Its getting to the point that pristine aircraft are hard to come by and history as such is commonplace. Well-inspected by someone very familiar with the model, I would not walk away.
     
  5. Racerx

    Racerx Pre-takeoff checklist

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    So it sounds like you were aware of 1 gear up but not the most recent? Was the seller trying to pull a fast one? Recently there was a Lance with a gear up the seller repaired. The prop was replaced with a used prop but the engine never overhauled. It had zero time since the incident so a little different scenario. A look into that sellers history showed a pattern of less than stellar business practices where they took an aircraft that had the plate removed due to insurance totalling from a flood and it had to be moved into experimental status. Severely limiting that planes ability to fly legally.

    With 600 hours since the last incident, you should in theory be looking at a prop and engine with 600 hours as well. Provided the repairs were done satisfactory, (with 600 hours since it's a fair assumption) it wouldn't scare me off. Provided it's priced accordingly.

    As far as resale, right now it's a seller's market. Plane prices across the board are high. Those high prices aren't going to last forever. Who knows how long it will last. You'll always be able to sell it but maybe not at the price you buy it at if condition remains the same.
     
  6. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

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    Try finding a Luscombe that hasn't been ground looped. :cool:
    Almost every aircraft had something in their past.
     
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  7. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Administrator Management Council Member

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    Taildraggers get ground looped
    Retracts get gear-upped
    Seaplanes get sunk
    Trikes porpoise and prang firewalls

    All of the above get repaired and fly. As long as it was repaired well, and to my knowledge gear ups don't actually cause much damage to the aircraft other than engine/prop, flaps and some belly skin, then I wouldn't worry about it.
     
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  8. TheFB

    TheFB Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I agree that a gear up with hundreds of hours after repair is safe overall. I just bought one with it. On some planes the design makes it less of an issue than others. I’m not qualified or experienced enough to say which are which. Good prebuy is always needed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2020
  9. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I think I'd pay extra for a plane with that signature in the logs. ;)
     
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  10. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    When I bought my plane I thought it had clearly been in a gear up. The step (which is the lowest hanging thing on the Navion) had an ugly weld in it. Turns out, a few years after I bought it, I found out that it wasn't quite a gear up, but rather a near gear up. The guy dragged and broke the step and then put the power to it and went around. I'm not sure that made me feel any better (I think the prop probably hit as well), but it was decades before I bought the plane.

    The question is WHY. If it's just pilot error, no big thing. If it's a problem that the gear wouldn't mechanically come down, then you'd want to know that this has been taken care of (or perhaps this is a problematic design you should steer clear of).
     
  11. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I would make the effort to find the airplane with no damage history. Any repairs that didn't get logged didn't actually happen. Fake news. [/smartass]

    On a serious note, get someone competent to inspect it. Quality of repairs varies from "factory new" to YGTBFSM. And, logbooks are works of historical fiction (1:20 below).

     
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  12. JimLahey

    JimLahey Filing Flight Plan

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    Thank you all! I’m digging through the logs today with my IA who is also a broker. As long as he also agrees that what he sees in the log book history is satisfactory, I’ll feel much better going into the next step of a prebuy. I appreciate all your comments and time.
     
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  13. AKBill

    AKBill En-Route

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    Just wondering what type of plane? I agree if properly repaired and inspected, take the discount
     
  14. TheFB

    TheFB Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Ha! Siri... Fixed that.
     
  15. JimLahey

    JimLahey Filing Flight Plan

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    It’s a C310R. Currently asking price is “reasonable” from its vintage, time on motors, avionics suite, etc. The log books are telling a bit different story than what I was I originally told. I don’t think they are hiding anything, just think the guy selling it for his friend is not 100% aware of the history and log books. I only see one prop overhaul and one gear up logged, the other seems to be alt gear failure but I don’t see a second prop overhaul or engine tear down. So not a deal breaker yet, but we are still in the process of reviewing everything and if they can answer the appropriate questions and we decide it’s livable, we’ll blue book it and make a reasonable offer.
     
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  16. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    Like the man said, airframes get older and older. Pristine aircraft get harder to find. So long as everything is fixed properly it really shouldn’t be an issue. The good news for the more persnickety among us is the price of older airframes is coming down to the point that a gear up will be the last strike for many.
     
  17. MuseChaser

    MuseChaser Pattern Altitude

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    The best part of that video was the panel near the end. Awesome work by the owner.
     
  18. CharlieD3

    CharlieD3 Cleared for Takeoff

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    So, the takeaway is non retractable steps act like "cat's whiskers" (curb feelers) on 60's Cadillacs. Hmmm
     
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  19. brien23

    brien23 Cleared for Takeoff

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    I had a 310D thirty plus years ago great plane, watch out lots of A&P do not know how to work on them and what to look for, a good test is as they walk away from the plane did they know how to shut the entrance door right . As to the R model I believe they are the only model certified for known Ice, and probably the best one they built, good luck.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2020
  20. Bender Aviation

    Bender Aviation Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If he didn't sign it, it didn't happen :cool:
     
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  21. JuggyJet

    JuggyJet Pre-Flight

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    After doing your homework, if you feel good about it, then that is all that matters.:) But, I am one of those (few?) who will not consider buying an airplane with damage history like that. And, I will recommend the same to my friends in the buying market. Good luck!
     
  22. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I’m curious....was it the same pilot that was responsible for both accidents?

    If so, I’d probably walk. Not so much because of the gear up, but I’d be constantly wondering what other surprises I might discover after becoming the owner.
     
  23. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    There's a club in a state that starts with T that has two gear ups on Bo by the same pilot, who at last check is still a member.

    So, my advice? Buy it, but don't partner with that person.
     
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  24. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    PFGUMPS

    People are idiots. How do you "gear up" a plane? do people also forget to put their shoes on when they leave the house??
     
  25. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    Yes!!
     
  26. danhagan

    danhagan Pattern Altitude

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    Looked at a Tiger years ago, owned by a DPE. It had damage history, engine replacement followed by ANOTHER off airport landing 100 hours after the initial repairs. He was ****ed because I walked, I was ****ed that I flew to see the AC and he didn't disclose the second accident, only the first. It never had an engine tear down at after the second and he was insistent that it didn't need it because it had one after the first prop strike:eek::confused::confused::confused::confused:
     
  27. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    what happened? Was he bouncing it and porpoising it bad enough to cause prop strikes?
     
  28. danhagan

    danhagan Pattern Altitude

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    First one was an all out pavement prop strike. Second one they were miffed as the A&P documented an "off airport landing into 6 feet of brackish water" in the logs and the CORROSION treatment the plane received and avionics repairs (this one he waited until I arrived and I found in the logs). Lycoming has recommendations for when an engine tear down is required, and that event is listed as quoted:

    (Sudden RPM drop on impact to water, tall grass, or similar yielding medium where propeller damage does not usually occur)

    https://www.lycoming.com/sites/defa...r Loss of Propeller_Rotor Blade or Ti (1).pdf
     
  29. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    I think that a properly rebuilt gear up with many years and hours will have little effect on its value. If inspection shows a ess than star repair and it was done recently it probably should be passed by although it may have a fresh engine, prop and maybe some gear upgrades.

    My $0.02
     
  30. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    Wow, you really can't make this stuff up
     
  31. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    The thing is, 'value' is based entirely on what is someone willing to pay for a plane. I believe if you take two otherwise identical airplanes but one has any kind of substantial damage history than the one without will always sell for a higher price

    There's a stigma attached to it
     
  32. danhagan

    danhagan Pattern Altitude

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    Not sure how the mechanic got away with entering that much detail into the logs, but it sure saved me from buying a nightmare with undocumented damage history.
     
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  33. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I'd probably be one of those idiots at some point, though I do remember my shoes. Knowing my limitations, I limit myself to fixed gear.
     
  34. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    That makes you a non-idiot!
     
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  35. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    I agree, but after an extended period of successful flight, the stigma fades. Many GA planes are fifty years old. A properly repaired gear up has little effect on price thirty or forty years later.
     
  36. JimLahey

    JimLahey Filing Flight Plan

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    That’s how I felt about a few planes I looked at recently that had gear ups in 1981 or 1995. But 2 in the last 10 years is a bit of a dilemma for me. The salesperson and I are trying out best to piece together some confusion from the logbooks for the supposed 2nd gear up. I just personally want to make sure the story adds up and the repairs were legit before I pursue a prebuy. I’m having my IA speak with the mechanics that supposedly worked on it a few years back and that should get us to the bottom of the confusion. As long as I have an out and can reasonably explain this aircrafts history with satisfactory repairs to a potential buyer in a few years, I’ll be happy to move forward. But we aren’t there yet with this deal. Thanks again for everyone’s contributions.
     
  37. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    This is true, and often overlooked
     
  38. smv

    smv Pattern Altitude

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    Hahaha... LOVE the Redneck Engineering on that panel. Looks lime they used a D&D die to decide where to put stuff.
     
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  39. smv

    smv Pattern Altitude

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    I am familiar with BCGUMPS. What are the P & F?
     
  40. schmookeeg

    schmookeeg Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Don't you fly a fixed gear? Strange shade to throw if so. :D

    I once hopped out of my S35 Bonanza into a friend's B33 Debonair at the end of a long day.

    The power settings and speeds in my S35 with gear down worked out to be about the same as his B33 with his gear up. I made it to short final before discovering my error. >< that close. It can happen to anyone.

    I have tried to leave the house without my shoes before too. :D

    ==

    Per OP's question -- if it's unpressurized, I don't care, normal due diligence applies. For something pressurized, I will want to scrutinize the repairs and the pressure vessel, and will give weight to a "name shop" for those repairs.

    There are plenty of "No Damage History" planes out there that have CLEARLY been geared up or totaled in their history. NDH has very little value in my book.

    $0.02