Door to door air cargo… By a private pilot??

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by NorthEast Ohio, Mar 11, 2021.

  1. GaryM

    GaryM Line Up and Wait

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    A lot of private pilots fly a lot of Santa Clauses into small airports every December. Are they risking certificate action (Gawd, I hope not).

    What about a charity event like the Tangier Holly Run? http://www.tangierhollyrun.com

    These holiday events often have hot chocolate and cookies for the pilots, and retailers are selling the presents that get transported. Could be considered 'compensation' in the FAAs alternate universe.
     
  2. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    Returning from a trip several years ago, I stopped in my elderly mother's home town, got gas, and had lunch at one of her old haunts. Then I brought her favorite sandwich home, which she paid me back for. Does anyone think that's outside the rules?

    For the original pilot, other than having a larger group of people, what's the difference?
     
  3. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Final Approach

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    The way some of you guys are reading the regulations there is no way to use an airplane as a private pilot. Every flight would have to be solo going somewhere to be alone and never spend any money allowing a third party to benefit.
     
  4. DaleB

    DaleB Final Approach

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    I have offered to carry kids, for free, on my own dime, out of the goodness of my heart and to build time. The event was even advertised. Someone brought donuts for the pilots (and other volunteers). Heck, a couple of years ago I offered to ferry people between two airports for free, because flooding had cut off land routes and people needed to get home, or to work. I flew 12 legs that day and carried 10 people.

    If I violated regulations in those instances, I suppose I'm in good company.
     
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  5. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel En-Route

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    The kid flys home from college every Friday. He's making that flight whether anyone orders any food or not. I've no idea if that will make a difference to the FAA but I suspect that's why he believes he's within the regs.

    If I mention to a friend that I'm going to fly to Connecticut to visit family this weekend and he says he has to attend a funeral near where I'm going on Saturday, is it illegal for me to ask him if he'd like to fly with me no charge instead of driving himself out and back since I'm going that way anyway? Is it illegal for me to say yes if he asks if he can tag along since I'm going that way anyway? Is a common purpose for the flight required in order for a private pilot to have passengers and/or packages in the plane with them?
     
  6. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I seriously doubt the FAA is going to go after this kid but the FAA really needs to clarify the new 61-142. Based on their examples he did nothing wrong but they need to add a third party compensation example as well. I don’t like the last two sentences in the Compensation paragraph.
     
  7. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

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    The problem becomes every time a rule is clarified, the internet lawyers start looking for work arounds and "what if's". The regulation in itself is very simple, but this thread will go on for page after page of how the peanut gallery will say it's illegal.

    And give it enough time someone will post the picture of the Kings with their hands up, or someone will shout "But Bob Hoover!!" o_O
     
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  8. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    Lots of flights occur in the "gray". As long as you stay out of the headlines no one notices or cares. Draw attention to yourself, the FAA notices.
     
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  9. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    They aren't offering these services to the public.
     
  10. GaryM

    GaryM Line Up and Wait

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    True, though they are advertised to the public, and goods are being delivered...and in some cases, kids can submit requests for specific presents they'd like to receive, and the charity tries to fulfill the requests.

    I wouldn't lose sleep worrying about an enforcement action if I were involved in these charitable activities, I just see some parallels to the one raised in the original post.
     
  11. Brad Z

    Brad Z Final Approach

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    Pilots and paws pilots are offering their services to fly animals for whoever to wherever. And Pilots n Paws as an organization usually has nothing to do with those flights.

    Pilots and rescue people post on public websites their respective availability and needs, and then connect to make the flight.

    You’re misinterpreting the FAA’s guidance.
     
  12. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    Every Young Eagles flight I've ever done was advertised to the public. If they aren't advertised no one would show up. According to some you sons of silly persons every Young Eagle pilot there's ever been has been in violation the regs.
     
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  13. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Compensation is payment received from someone other than oneself. If you pay for the flight hours yourself, it's not compensation.
     
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  14. Brad Z

    Brad Z Final Approach

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    Since young eagles flights take off and land at the same airport, and no one is being transported from place to place, would it even be considered common carriage even if they did charge money?

    But I understand and agree with your point.
     
  15. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    Exactly, its the "free" flight hours that becomes the issue. If you are incurring the expenses of the flight, you can do almost anything.
     
  16. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    "Will" be returned, or "could" be returned? If a theoretical possibility of receiving something in return were enough, that would make all charity flying illegal.

    In the case where the goodwill concept was introduced, the reason to expect future employment from the business was more than theoretical.
     
  17. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    That would be true if Angel Flight were operating under an FAA exemption, but I don't think they are.

    For example, CAP does hold an FAA exemption, which has to be periodically renewed. (Last I heard, this has expired, which limits what types of missions CAP private pilots can fly until the exemption gets renewed again.)
     
  18. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    This thread reminds me of something....


    [​IMG]

    :lol::lol:
     
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  19. TrueCourse

    TrueCourse Pre-takeoff checklist

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    All of this back and forth and interpretations of regulation demonstrates the weakness of some regulations. The intent of a regulation, can be simple. It's application across various scenarios is complex. This young pilot is definitely "holding out" the services of his airplane, but whether anyone is being compensated or not is yet to be determined. I'm sure the restaurants have increased business as a result of this.

    The AC 61-142, "..applies to pilots exercising private pilot privileges who wish to share the costs of operating an aircraft during a flight with passengers", so it can't be the sole source when trying to figure this stuff out. Pizzas aren't passengers and they aren't sharing the cost of the flight. Whether he is transporting goods as a common carrier is another. This conversation would usually take place between the attorneys considering violations or legal action, so it is a bit humorous to read pilots debating it.

    I sure hope the FAA spends more time monitoring regulated carriers and prosecuting unregulated carriers than chasing after this guy to determine if he had a pizza slice as compensation.
     
  20. Brad Z

    Brad Z Final Approach

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    I have no doubt they are, but it only takes one internet junior aviation safety inspector to file a hotline complaint that compels the FAA to investigate. Hopefully this doesn't become one of those "why we can't have nice things" situations.
     
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  21. Todd82

    Todd82 Line Up and Wait

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    Assuming he's not getting some under the table payments...

    How is this any different than flying to a fly in where they offer cheaper gas or a free hot dog for the folks who fly in? A discount on gas is a tangible benefit with a defined value.

    IF he's taking under the table payments then there are FAA and IRS issues.
     
  22. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

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    And what if he has mob connections? What if he removed the tag from his mattress??
     
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  23. Todd82

    Todd82 Line Up and Wait

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    Mob connections? He's going to Kelley's Island not Rattlesnake Island. ;)
     
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  24. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Or, what if he had something added to his "permanent record" in high school?
     
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  25. Todd82

    Todd82 Line Up and Wait

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    Yinz misinterpreted me. I'm saying he's doing nothing wrong as it's presented in the article. But everyone knows under the table work isn't necessarily legal, regardless of flying.
     
  26. WDD

    WDD Pattern Altitude

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    I think we’re looking at an intranational smuggling operation here.

    And the money being donated to charity as a result of all of this? This must be stopped at all costs.

    The FBO that makes money selling gas? That’s for profit? Sounds commercial to me - Must be banned !
     
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  27. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    http://www.angelflightne.org/images/pdfs/faa_exemptionno10360.pdf
     
  28. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Not quite old enough to remember, but did we argue and do this much pearl clutching in the days of CompuServe and usenet? ;)
     
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  29. IK04

    IK04 Pattern Altitude

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    This is all BS. Who is injured by a pilot carrying people or "cargo" when no compensation is made or earned?

    Who or what is being "protected" by these legal requirements and tests? No commercial operation would survive by holding out such trivial services, so these regulations are just a nuisance.

    Maybe its time to flush the CFR and start over?
     
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  30. Country Flier

    Country Flier Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I flew to Sporty's the other day, and before leaving, I asked my flying friends if they wanted anything. I picked up a case of oil and filter for one, and a new LED landing light for another. Since they both reimbursed me for the purchases (and Sporty's profited), guess I'd better go turn myself in now. LOL
     
  31. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

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    Maybe it's time for people to use common sense?;)
     
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  32. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Not necessarily. Two things *could* make it illegal:

    1) If the pizza place charged a delivery fee (regardless of whether or not it was paid to the pilot)
    2) If there was no other method of transportation by which the pizza could have been delivered.

    Free flight hours is only one issue. Remember, it doesn't have to be the pilot receiving compensation.
     
  33. ateamer

    ateamer Line Up and Wait

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    The only people saying it’s illegal are a few commenters on here speculating about what might happen (what they hope happens so they have something to complain about?). There is no indication that the FAA or anyone else cares.
     
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  34. Brad Z

    Brad Z Final Approach

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    I would go as far to say that the pizza place could charge delivery costs associated with delivering the pizza to the airport.
     
  35. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    You can't force bureaucrats that are immune to prosecution or suits to use common sense. That is the root of the problem.
     
  36. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

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    It's not the bureaucrats being discussed. It's the wild interpretations coming from the peanut gallery.
     
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  37. schmookeeg

    schmookeeg Administrator Management Council Member

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    I'm reading a lot of talk about the compensation part of the equation, but isn't this kid able to get burned by the "or hire" part of the reg?

    Aren't these people "hiring him" (for no pay) to carry cargo?

    ...setting aside the practical matter of whether the FAA has time to meddle with this.
     
  38. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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  39. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    YES!!! :D
     
  40. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The same could be said about us Internet posters! :)
     
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