Door to door air cargo… By a private pilot??

A lot of private pilots fly a lot of Santa Clauses into small airports every December. Are they risking certificate action (Gawd, I hope not).

What about a charity event like the Tangier Holly Run? http://www.tangierhollyrun.com

These holiday events often have hot chocolate and cookies for the pilots, and retailers are selling the presents that get transported. Could be considered 'compensation' in the FAAs alternate universe.
 
Returning from a trip several years ago, I stopped in my elderly mother's home town, got gas, and had lunch at one of her old haunts. Then I brought her favorite sandwich home, which she paid me back for. Does anyone think that's outside the rules?

For the original pilot, other than having a larger group of people, what's the difference?
 
I have offered to carry kids, for free, on my own dime, out of the goodness of my heart and to build time. The event was even advertised. Someone brought donuts for the pilots (and other volunteers). Heck, a couple of years ago I offered to ferry people between two airports for free, because flooding had cut off land routes and people needed to get home, or to work. I flew 12 legs that day and carried 10 people.

If I violated regulations in those instances, I suppose I'm in good company.
 
The kid flys home from college every Friday. He's making that flight whether anyone orders any food or not. I've no idea if that will make a difference to the FAA but I suspect that's why he believes he's within the regs.

If I mention to a friend that I'm going to fly to Connecticut to visit family this weekend and he says he has to attend a funeral near where I'm going on Saturday, is it illegal for me to ask him if he'd like to fly with me no charge instead of driving himself out and back since I'm going that way anyway? Is it illegal for me to say yes if he asks if he can tag along since I'm going that way anyway? Is a common purpose for the flight required in order for a private pilot to have passengers and/or packages in the plane with them?
 
I seriously doubt the FAA is going to go after this kid but the FAA really needs to clarify the new 61-142. Based on their examples he did nothing wrong but they need to add a third party compensation example as well. I don’t like the last two sentences in the Compensation paragraph.
 
Velocity173 said:
I seriously doubt the FAA is going to go after this kid but the FAA really needs to clarify the new 61-142. Based on their examples he did nothing wrong but they need to add a third party compensation example as well. I don’t like the last two sentences in the Compensation paragraph.
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The problem becomes every time a rule is clarified, the internet lawyers start looking for work arounds and "what if's". The regulation in itself is very simple, but this thread will go on for page after page of how the peanut gallery will say it's illegal.

And give it enough time someone will post the picture of the Kings with their hands up, or someone will shout "But Bob Hoover!!" o_O
 
bflynn said:
Returning from a trip several years ago, I stopped in my elderly mother's home town, got gas, and had lunch at one of her old haunts. Then I brought her favorite sandwich home, which she paid me back for. Does anyone think that's outside the rules?

For the original pilot, other than having a larger group of people, what's the difference?
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Lots of flights occur in the "gray". As long as you stay out of the headlines no one notices or cares. Draw attention to yourself, the FAA notices.
 
flyingron said:
They aren't offering these services to the public.
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True, though they are advertised to the public, and goods are being delivered...and in some cases, kids can submit requests for specific presents they'd like to receive, and the charity tries to fulfill the requests.

I wouldn't lose sleep worrying about an enforcement action if I were involved in these charitable activities, I just see some parallels to the one raised in the original post.
 
flyingron said:
They aren't offering these services to the public.
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Pilots and paws pilots are offering their services to fly animals for whoever to wherever. And Pilots n Paws as an organization usually has nothing to do with those flights.

Pilots and rescue people post on public websites their respective availability and needs, and then connect to make the flight.

You’re misinterpreting the FAA’s guidance.
 
Every Young Eagles flight I've ever done was advertised to the public. If they aren't advertised no one would show up. According to some you sons of silly persons every Young Eagle pilot there's ever been has been in violation the regs.
 
Racerx said:
Didn't someone make the argument one time that building hours could technically be considered compensation. The kid wants to be a commercial pilot. But needs hours. This gives him a way to build hours whether or not he's being paid monetarily or not. The hours are the compensation. Bravo on the kid for doing it. Very stupid for allowing the story to be covered. Some times the notoriety isn't worth it and stepping into this grey area and letting the government see isn't something I would have done.
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Compensation is payment received from someone other than oneself. If you pay for the flight hours yourself, it's not compensation.
 
steingar said:
Every Young Eagles flight I've ever done was advertised to the public. If they aren't advertised no one would show up. According to some you sons of silly persons every Young Eagle pilot there's ever been has been in violation the regs.
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Since young eagles flights take off and land at the same airport, and no one is being transported from place to place, would it even be considered common carriage even if they did charge money?

But I understand and agree with your point.
 
Palmpilot said:
Compensation is payment received from someone other than oneself. If you pay for the flight hours yourself, it's not compensation.
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Exactly, its the "free" flight hours that becomes the issue. If you are incurring the expenses of the flight, you can do almost anything.
 
Clip4 said:
Well established FAA precedent. Good will is compensation. At some point the favor will be returned or there is an expectation the favor will be returned.
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"Will" be returned, or "could" be returned? If a theoretical possibility of receiving something in return were enough, that would make all charity flying illegal.

In the case where the goodwill concept was introduced, the reason to expect future employment from the business was more than theoretical.
 
Clip4 said:
An Angel Flight is a charitable flight specifically approved by the FAA.
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That would be true if Angel Flight were operating under an FAA exemption, but I don't think they are.

For example, CAP does hold an FAA exemption, which has to be periodically renewed. (Last I heard, this has expired, which limits what types of missions CAP private pilots can fly until the exemption gets renewed again.)
 
steingar said:
This is the silliest argument yet I've seen on this site, and that's really really saying something. Pilot makes back and forth trips on his own dime to Kelleys Island to build time. Doesn't run afoul of the regs. He delivers food to Kelleys Island, again flying on his own dime and not getting paid for the deliveries, and somehow mystically runs afoul of the regs.
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This thread reminds me of something....


anigif_sub-buzz-17991-1527197768-16.gif


:lol::lol:
 
All of this back and forth and interpretations of regulation demonstrates the weakness of some regulations. The intent of a regulation, can be simple. It's application across various scenarios is complex. This young pilot is definitely "holding out" the services of his airplane, but whether anyone is being compensated or not is yet to be determined. I'm sure the restaurants have increased business as a result of this.

The AC 61-142, "..applies to pilots exercising private pilot privileges who wish to share the costs of operating an aircraft during a flight with passengers", so it can't be the sole source when trying to figure this stuff out. Pizzas aren't passengers and they aren't sharing the cost of the flight. Whether he is transporting goods as a common carrier is another. This conversation would usually take place between the attorneys considering violations or legal action, so it is a bit humorous to read pilots debating it.

I sure hope the FAA spends more time monitoring regulated carriers and prosecuting unregulated carriers than chasing after this guy to determine if he had a pizza slice as compensation.
 
TrueCourse said:
I sure hope the FAA spends more time monitoring regulated carriers and prosecuting unregulated carriers than chasing after this guy to determine if he had a pizza slice as compensation.
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I have no doubt they are, but it only takes one internet junior aviation safety inspector to file a hotline complaint that compels the FAA to investigate. Hopefully this doesn't become one of those "why we can't have nice things" situations.
 
Assuming he's not getting some under the table payments...

How is this any different than flying to a fly in where they offer cheaper gas or a free hot dog for the folks who fly in? A discount on gas is a tangible benefit with a defined value.

IF he's taking under the table payments then there are FAA and IRS issues.
 
Todd82 said:
Assuming he's not getting some under the table payments...

How is this any different than flying to a fly in where they offer cheaper gas or a free hot dog for the folks who fly in? A discount on gas is a tangible benefit with a defined value.

IF he's taking under the table payments then there are FAA and IRS issues.
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And what if he has mob connections? What if he removed the tag from his mattress??
 
Yinz misinterpreted me. I'm saying he's doing nothing wrong as it's presented in the article. But everyone knows under the table work isn't necessarily legal, regardless of flying.
 
I think we’re looking at an intranational smuggling operation here.

And the money being donated to charity as a result of all of this? This must be stopped at all costs.

The FBO that makes money selling gas? That’s for profit? Sounds commercial to me - Must be banned !
 
This is all BS. Who is injured by a pilot carrying people or "cargo" when no compensation is made or earned?

Who or what is being "protected" by these legal requirements and tests? No commercial operation would survive by holding out such trivial services, so these regulations are just a nuisance.

Maybe its time to flush the CFR and start over?
 
I flew to Sporty's the other day, and before leaving, I asked my flying friends if they wanted anything. I picked up a case of oil and filter for one, and a new LED landing light for another. Since they both reimbursed me for the purchases (and Sporty's profited), guess I'd better go turn myself in now. LOL
 
IK04 said:
This is all BS. Who is injured by a pilot carrying people or "cargo" when no compensation is made or earned?

Who or what is being "protected" by these legal requirements and tests? No commercial operation would survive by holding out such trivial services, so these regulations are just a nuisance.

Maybe its time to flush the CFR and start over?
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Maybe it's time for people to use common sense?;)
 
Brad Z said:
Assuming that making these flights doesn't result in back door compensation (i.e. tips), free fuel, or goodwill (not "wow, what a nice kid!" But more "quid pro quo" or some obvious expectation, such as offering free delivery for potential business clients), this is 100% legal.
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Not necessarily. Two things *could* make it illegal:

1) If the pizza place charged a delivery fee (regardless of whether or not it was paid to the pilot)
2) If there was no other method of transportation by which the pizza could have been delivered.

midwestpa24 said:
Exactly, its the "free" flight hours that becomes the issue. If you are incurring the expenses of the flight, you can do almost anything.
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Free flight hours is only one issue. Remember, it doesn't have to be the pilot receiving compensation.
 
IK04 said:
This is all BS. Who is injured by a pilot carrying people or "cargo" when no compensation is made or earned?

Who or what is being "protected" by these legal requirements and tests? No commercial operation would survive by holding out such trivial services, so these regulations are just a nuisance.

Maybe its time to flush the CFR and start over?
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The only people saying it’s illegal are a few commenters on here speculating about what might happen (what they hope happens so they have something to complain about?). There is no indication that the FAA or anyone else cares.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Not necessarily. Two things *could* make it illegal:

1) If the pizza place charged a delivery fee (regardless of whether or not it was paid to the pilot)
2) If there was no other method of transportation by which the pizza could have been delivered.
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I would go as far to say that the pizza place could charge delivery costs associated with delivering the pizza to the airport.
 
I'm reading a lot of talk about the compensation part of the equation, but isn't this kid able to get burned by the "or hire" part of the reg?

Aren't these people "hiring him" (for no pay) to carry cargo?

...setting aside the practical matter of whether the FAA has time to meddle with this.
 
Salty said:
You can't force bureaucrats that are immune to prosecution or suits to use common sense. That is the root of the problem.
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The same could be said about us Internet posters! :)
 
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