Door opens on takeoff....one less Aztec in the world

[Fearless Tower]

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2013/03/piper-pa-23-250-n318ca-accident.html

Door popped on open on takoeff......MEI told the student to 'stop the flight'? Really????

No injuries, but the Aztec is toast.

 

[Ted]

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2013/03/piper-pa-23-250-n318ca-accident.html

Door popped on open on takoeff......MEI told the student to 'stop the flight'? Really????

No injuries, but the Aztec is toast.

Yeah, I would never do that. Door pops open, do once around the pattern and land normally.

The nose baggage door had an AD out on it from multiple in-flight openings that would then hit the prop, cause pilots to panic, and crash. Not a reason to not go around the pattern, though.

 

[LDJones]

Another example of taking a minor event and turning it into an accident. One noisy pattern would have been a much better option. Happens every day with no bent metal.

 

[Ted]

I've had the Aztec door pop open a few times. No big deal. Also had it happen on the Navajo when my co-pilot forgot to lock the crew door. In that case, we were ferrying it 15 nm, and just left it open. Took about the same time as the pattern would have.

 

[guardrail]

My mom always tells me the story of her first solo cross country in a Warrior, I guess she forgot to fully latch the door and it popped open. Glad she didn't learn with this guy or I may no longer be around!

I had a dual lesson in a 172 and the window wouldn't latch, one of the hinges broke and it fell down partially and we couldn't secure it. This happened right on rotate, so I just flew the pattern, set her down, jammed it back up in place and latched it. Flew the rest of the lesson, albeit a lot hotter...

 

[Geico266]

Another example of taking a minor event and turning it into an accident. One noisy pattern would have been a much better option. Happens every day with no bent metal.

The were WAY past the decision point if they ran off the runway.

 

[Geico266]

The weak link on an RV-10 is the doors not being properly closed. If you don't close & lock them properly they will be patiently waiting on the runway for you when you return.

Several have departed the planes over the years, none have caused an accident. All were repaired and the pilots now make sure the doors are properly closed.

When all else fails, fly the airplane.

 

[guardrail]

The weak link on an RV-10 is the doors not being properly closed. If you don't close & lock them properly they will be patiently waiting on the runway for you when you return.

Several have departed the planes over the years, none have caused an accident. All were repaired and the pilots now make sure the doors are properly closed.

When all else fails, fly the airplane.

Wait, the RV has a weakpoint?!?! I keed, I keed.

 

[bnt83]

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2013/03/piper-pa-23-250-n318ca-accident.html

Door popped on open on takoeff......MEI told the student to 'stop the flight'? Really????

No injuries, but the Aztec is toast.

Because of a door?

 

[Geico266]

Wait, the RV has a weakpoint?!?! I keed, I keed.

Unbelievable I know.


Hey, at least the doors come off early in the flight ( only when not closed and locked properly) and can be found and repaired! Those scratches will buff right out.

 

[bnt83]

Unbelievable I know.


Hey, at least the doors come off early in the flight ( only when not closed and locked properly) and can be found and repaired! Those scratches will buff right out.

Till an Aztec runs it over due to distractions

 

[eman1200]

I'm asking this because I honestly don't know the answer (new guy), but is it possible that the abort decision was the right decision but the student maybe panicked and couldn't stop the plane in time but should have been able to?

 

[Fearless Tower]

I'm asking this because I honestly don't know the answer (new guy), but is it possible that the abort decision was the right decision but the student maybe panicked and couldn't stop the plane in time but should have been able to?

Unless you are flying in a Velocity (pusher prop with a gull wing door) a door popping open is not a safety of flight issue. Better to continue the takeoff and return to land than risk the overrun.

 

[Geico266]

I'm asking this because I honestly don't know the answer (new guy), but is it possible that the abort decision was the right decision but the student maybe panicked and couldn't stop the plane in time but should have been able to?

Good question, and certainly possible. However, brakes can heat up and fade very quickly. I have no experience with this plane, but in general relying on brakes for a panic stop is not a good idea.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

I've had the Aztec door pop open a few times. No big deal.

Not according to this commenter on the original story.

Joe Beam said...

I had a door come open in ifr conditions on an aztec. lost 3,000 feet, rolled about 70 degrees, and did a course reversal od 270 degrees. very dangerous!!

j beam MEII

Thursday, March 21, 2013 at 8:59:00 AM EDT

 

[LDJones]

I'm asking this because I honestly don't know the answer (new guy), but is it possible that the abort decision was the right decision but the student maybe panicked and couldn't stop the plane in time but should have been able to?

The MEI was there and should have saved it if it was salvageable. Or she should have had the sense to recognize a non-threatening event and deal with it accordingly.

 

[LDJones]

Not according to this commenter on the original story.

There has to be more to that story. Makes no sense.

 

[Fearless Tower]

There has to be more to that story. Makes no sense.

Oh, it makes perfect sense to me.....he was leaning over f'ng with the door while trying to fly the bloody plane in IMC.

The only thing that was dangerous....was the pilot.

 

[LDJones]

Oh, it makes perfect sense to me.....he was leaning over f'ng with the door while trying to fly the bloody plane in IMC.

The only thing that was dangerous....was the pilot.

Now THAT makes perfect sense.

 

[Ted]

I'm asking this because I honestly don't know the answer (new guy), but is it possible that the abort decision was the right decision but the student maybe panicked and couldn't stop the plane in time but should have been able to?

Nope. Door opening on takeoff is not a reason for an abort in an Aztec or most other planes.

 

[Ted]

Not according to this commenter on the original story.

Guy was ****ing with the door rather than flying the plane. Leave it alone, land the plane, close it.

People crash when a door pops open like this because they forget to fly.

I've had more than one door opening event in the old Aztec. No issues. None.

 

[wabower]

Easy to second-guess the next morning, a bit different when it happens. Numerous fatals have resulted from front bag-doors opening in flight, as well as many exciting moments similar to the report from the MEII.

My impression (based on memory) suggests that Pipers have been more problematic than other makes.

Oh, it makes perfect sense to me.....he was leaning over f'ng with the door while trying to fly the bloody plane in IMC.

The only thing that was dangerous....was the pilot.

 

[tinerj]

My wife, who is not a pilot, knows the answer to the question "What should you do if . . . . " (finish the sentence with almost anything)

Fly the plane.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Easy to second-guess the next morning, a bit different when it happens. Numerous fatals have resulted from front bag-doors opening in flight, as well as many exciting moments similar to the report from the MEII.

I've had it happen. It was a non-event (aside from the challenge of communitcating with tower because it was loud as hell)....because I remembered fly the airplane first.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Not according to this commenter on the original story.

There has to be more to that story. Makes no sense.

Makes ya' wonder why someone would press the "submit" button after putting their name to that comment.

 

[Ghery]

I've had the door pop open in the Arrow. A bit noisy and somewhat windy, but no big deal. Landed, secured it and took off again. And then, we've deliberately opened a door in the 182 in flight. Hard to spread ashes without doing so.

 

[Ted]

Easy to second-guess the next morning, a bit different when it happens. Numerous fatals have resulted from front bag-doors opening in flight, as well as many exciting moments similar to the report from the MEII.

My impression (based on memory) suggests that Pipers have been more problematic than other makes.

This reminds me of my CFII ride in the Aztec. Door popped open about 1,000 AGL, and thee DPE started panicing and called the plane "uncontrollable." I finally called "my plane" after a few seconds of him trying to lose control and landed it without issue normally. Closed the door, continued the ride, passed.

So I'm sure the 20,000 hour DPE is still telling people about his near-death experience (he was up until I moved from the area), but it was a perception issue more than anything.

 

[DogDaddy]

I guess this affects the instructor's chances of winning Master Flight Instructor of the Year.

 

[Skylane81E]

Guy was ****ing with the door rather than flying the plane. Leave it alone, land the plane, close it.

People crash when a door pops open like this because they forget to fly.

I've had more than one door opening event in the old Aztec. No issues. None.

Yep, last time a door popped on a twin I was riding in was a Seneca, I was in the right seat, we performed a touch and go on a fairly long runway and I shut the door while the nose wheel was down.

Not something to try solo but it worked fine with someone to fly the plane and another to shut it

Most recent was a 172 that opened on final in gusty winds, I didn't notice until the door swung open on roll out. It really is no big deal, sure some planes are reported to oscillate with the door open, but nothing you can't control.

I am far from super pilot but if I can land an Arrow with half the top cowl gone, the other half stuck to the wing, one windshield half missing, the other broken and the stabilator smashed back to the spar on one side you can land with the door open.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

Man I LOVE it when I'm right!! Here is an excerpt from what I just posted on the thread about single vs twin safety: On a severe clear dead calm day a minor failure in flight handled in an efficient and competent manner by a well trained pilot is a non-event. If the same occurrence happens to a sloppy and unprepared pilot it could lead to disaster. And now I open this thread and see this. Is this the quality of the CFIs in today's world???


The very first time I took my soon to be wife on a flight in a rented 182 I neglected to ensure she had her door latched correctly. When it popped open on climbout she freaked out. I told her to slam it hard and it would latch. She screamed "I can't push it open!!!" I pointed out to her if that was the case she wasn't going to fall out was she? We landed and got it shut.

 

[Fearless Tower]

My impression (based on memory) suggests that Pipers have been more problematic than other makes.

I think the earlier Pipers (mid-70s and prior before they added the two latch system) were prone to doors coming open. Plenty of doors popping open on Beeches as well. Mine happened in a Duchess. Also had the door come open in the 170 a few times, but that was more like opening a vent.

 

[wabower]

In singles it's normally a non-event, although some with the doors that extend into the roof with multiple latches are more difficult than the simple Cessna doors. Twins seem to be different, although a number of fatals have listed the door as a probable cause. When we had the Aerostars the factory pilot (Rev. Bob Scott) who provided training suggested that we refrain from sticking our arm out the window with the engine running.

I've had it happen. It was a non-event (aside from the challenge of communitcating with tower because it was loud as hell)....because I remembered fly the airplane first.

 

[Jim Logajan]

I see a lot of "door popped open" stories.
I've had airplane doors pop open on me.

Stories of automobile doors popping open seem to be much fewer.

My conclusion:
Past designers of small airplanes had no f'ing clue how to design door latches.

(I read somewhere that auto manufacturers spent a lot of time and money to get that distinctive door closure sound that gives the needed feedback indicating proper closure.)

 

[ARFlyer]

I think the earlier Pipers (mid-70s and prior before they added the two latch system) were prone to doors coming open. Plenty of doors popping open on Beeches as well. Mine happened in a Duchess. Also had the door come open in the 170 a few times, but that was more like opening a vent.

If you have a door open up on the newer Pipers it was because the pilot forgot to fasten it properly.

I realized on a cross country last summer that I had forgot to latch the door before takeoff on our Arrow. All you have to do is trim the plane for level flight, open the side window vent and pull the door until you get the top latch to grab.

During my CFI ride the FAA Inspector asked me if I ever had to deal with an open door and I told him the story. He thanked me for flying the aircraft and not making myself a statistic.

I've actually flown a plane with the doors to final. My CFI was teaching me ways to get around locked flight controls. He had the yoke come apart on him one day and found that he had to land via power and the doors.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

I see a lot of "door popped open" stories.
I've had airplane doors pop open on me.

1) Weigh an automotive door vs. a small airplane door.

2) How well does a system that weighs ~15% of the automotive door hold up to student/CFI abuse and a flight school that won't replace worn parts?

3) Calculate the cost required by an aircraft manufacturer to jump through the hoops required to get iterative improvements past the FAA.

Stories of automobile doors popping open seem to be much fewer.

Son's '68 Plymouth door popped open last Sunday. Similar vintage to many plane door events. He has the ability to quickly pull over and close it, though (and if he balled it up due to a door opening, we'd be chatting a bit.)

(I read somewhere that auto manufacturers spent a lot of time and money to get that distinctive door closure sound that gives the needed feedback indicating proper closure.)

The coveted "bank vault" sound -- not related to proper closure, but to head off buyers who are put off and won't buy a car that sounds "cheap and tinny" when they slam the door at the dealer. A marketing decision, not engineering.

That being said, there are some crappy GA designs out there, particularly if parts are worn.

I've never had the Mooney door pop, and if it did, I'd fix what wasn't right.

 

[gismo]

I see a lot of "door popped open" stories.
I've had airplane doors pop open on me.

Stories of automobile doors popping open seem to be much fewer.

My conclusion:
Past designers of small airplanes had no f'ing clue how to design door latches

Based on my experience that conclusion is for the most part false. Every popped airplane door I've ever experienced, witnessed, or heard about was the result of the pilot failing to ensure the door was latched properly before takeoff or a door latch and/or hinge that was severely out of adjustment. Most such stories begin with "the right seat passenger closed the door..."

 

[steingar]

Had a window pop open on my first solo. Could have become a statistic until I remembered my instructor's words "Fly the airplane". Speed had degraded quite a bit. Don't recall if I ever closed the thing or not. Didn't hurt anything, just noisy.

 

[wabower]

With any luck it happened on the last day that your sectional was current.

Had a window pop open on my first solo. Could have become a statistic until I remembered my instructor's words "Fly the airplane". Speed had degraded quite a bit. Don't recall if I ever closed the thing or not. Didn't hurt anything, just noisy.

 

[Seanaldinho]

When all else fails, fly the airplane.

One of my instructors is a retired navy jock and he always said when something goes wrong first you fly the airplane then you check your watch to see if you'll make it home to dinner.

 

[Ted]

Based on my experience that conclusion is for the most part false. Every popped airplane door I've ever experienced, witnessed, or heard about was the result of the pilot failing to ensure the door was latched properly before takeoff or a door latch and/or hinge that was severely out of adjustment. Most such stories begin with "the right seat passenger closed the door..."

And Lance makes an absolutely correct statement once again. Although for me sometimes it was my own stupid fault.