Does this have any useful value for an experienced XC and IR Private Pilot ?

MajorTurbulence

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MajorTurbulence
Just got a present of the latest Xbox with latest version MSFT flight simulator and the flight stick and throttle controller. The hearts and thoughts from the family were definitely in the right place, but this would not be my usual preference as I’m not a gamer, and I deal with computer issues for work effectively but begrudgingly.

If I would get anything, an FAA approved IFR simulator for logging approaches would have been my preference, but I think the cost disparity is significant.

While the Xbox can be a stand alone DVD player, my initial impression fiddling with how to operate all the buttons is it’s not worth keeping for a flying benefit. What do you experienced users think?

Also, what add-ons can be purchased to change the equation in any way?
 
I'm not familiar with the current MSFT sim, but my experience with X-Plane is that it helps me practice my scan (when I actually get around to using it).

I don't think I have tried the Flightstick. I have found that the Thrustmaster T16000M is greatly superior to others that I have tried, because it has a hall-effect sensor that eliminates the dead zone in the center of travel, which I found annoying on other joysticks. I don't know whether they have a version that works with Xbox.
 
Just got a present of the latest Xbox with latest version MSFT flight simulator and the flight stick and throttle controller. The hearts and thoughts from the family were definitely in the right place, but this would not be my usual preference as I’m not a gamer, and I deal with computer issues for work effectively but begrudgingly.

If I would get anything, an FAA approved IFR simulator for logging approaches would have been my preference, but I think the cost disparity is significant.

While the Xbox can be a stand alone DVD player, my initial impression fiddling with how to operate all the buttons is it’s not worth keeping for a flying benefit. What do you experienced users think?

Also, what add-ons can be purchased to change the equation in any way?
Implicitly it has value in signifying they support your aviation addiction. I would selectively interpret this gift to mean they'll approve a panel upgrade, engine overhaul, or maybe even a new airplane.
 
Instrument scan, flows, checklists, fly the published procedures.
When you referred to published procedures, I think that would mean things like STARS, SIDS, and most importantly for the piston engined crowd, instrument approach procedures. Can these procedures actually be loaded in this sim, and if so, how? All I see at this initial experimental period is the need to put in a departure and/or arrival point to effectively fly the simulation.
 
When you referred to published procedures, I think that would mean things like STARS, SIDS, and most importantly for the piston engined crowd, instrument approach procedures. Can these procedures actually be loaded in this sim, and if so, how? All I see at this initial experimental period is the need to put in a departure and/or arrival point to effectively fly the simulation.

I don’t know about your version, but with MSFS X I simply put in VORs, localizers, and ILSs and flew airport to airport. I never really “loaded” anything, just tuned the NAV receiver and flew the needles under various conditions. I never graduated to GPS on MSFS. My GPS feeds my needles in real-life.
 
When you referred to published procedures, I think that would mean things like STARS, SIDS, and most importantly for the piston engined crowd, instrument approach procedures. Can these procedures actually be loaded in this sim, and if so, how? All I see at this initial experimental period is the need to put in a departure and/or arrival point to effectively fly the simulation.

Yes, they can be. You can load approaches and procedures into the gps, as well as use something like this:



Also, Honeycomb flight controls work with xbox, too



PC is still the preferred system for a simulator, but there are ways to use it on xbox. Have never tried it myself so don't know the actual buttonology for it, but there is quite a bit out there to make it still useful.
 
I don’t know about your version, but with MSFS X I simply put in VORs, localizers, and ILSs and flew airport to airport. I never really “loaded” anything, just tuned the NAV receiver and flew the needles under various conditions. I never graduated to GPS on MSFS. My GPS feeds my needles in real-life.
I have the 40th anniversary version about 1 year old. It currently is a puzzle how to put waypoints, VORs, or anything other than departure and destination into the flight plan. Very frustrating. Wish there was a tutorial to do what you suggested. However, if I could enter all the waypoints of an approach and navigate via the instruments whether on gps or localizer, ILS or vor, that would make a difference for IFR practice.
 
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Might try asking your questions over on AVSIM. Personally, other than attitude flying, I don't see this as a practical way to practice IFR procedures especially if you are hand jamming in the nav data to make the system emulate a loaded approach. Seems to me there's lots of potential to develop negative habits that will be counterproductive to real-world IFR flying.
 
Yes, they can be. You can load approaches and procedures into the gps, as well as use something like this:



Also, Honeycomb flight controls work with xbox, too



PC is still the preferred system for a simulator, but there are ways to use it on xbox. Have never tried it myself so don't know the actual buttonology for it, but there is quite a bit out there to make it still useful.
Thanks for these links. This is what I was asking about and will have to explore further.
 
I second the recommendation for the HoneyComb flight controls. HUGE difference of the CH/Logitech setup I had before.

I use X-Plane. You just load the approach into the GPS like the real thing. I fly some G-1000 aircraft, but not that often, so I find using the sim helps. For G-1000, you can run trainers on your iPad and interface to X-plane to give you more screens and touch activation instead of using the mouse.
 
I recently bright an Xbox and MSFS, because I wanted the satellite images that X-Plane does not (easily) provide. The Xbox images are remarkable, but otherwise it has been a disappointment. Even though MSFS is four years old, it’s still full of bugs, about which Microsoft and Asobo have been informed but do nothing to fix. I also have X-Plane running on a dedicated PC, plus a RealSimGear G1000 setup, and — apart from the very basic images — I find it to be quite good for maintaining experience. My version not FAA approved, so it can’t be used to maintain Instrument currency. But when used with PilotEdge or Pilot2ATC for ATC, it provides a nice simulation of an actual flight. RealSimGear does sell FAA-approved versions. But you’re right, they are more expensive than an Xbox by a very noticeable margin.
 
|Also, what add-ons can be purchased to change the equation in any way?

Very few add-ons work on an Xbox. Most work only with the PC version of MSFS. This is so even with software add-ons, because ALL software for the Xbox MSFS must be downloaded from the Xbox store, and not all MSFS software add-ons are available from there.
 
I'm not familiar with that sim, but have played with older MSFS. One thing you can often do in a simple sim that you can't always do in an actual plane is practice VOR navigation and approaches. Because in the sim, the VORs usually all work. :)
 
Once you get it going, please let us know if you can roll a Cessna 172.
 
RealSimGear does sell FAA-approved versions. But you’re right, they are more expensive than an Xbox by a very noticeable margin.

Yeah, $20,000 or more pays for a good bit of flying in actual airplanes.

My local FBO has an AATD that is rentable. Cheaper than airplane time, but not by a huge margin.
 
Once you get it going, please let us know if you can roll a Cessna 172.
Not interested, not because you couldn’t do it as an exercise, but because, as an experienced aerobatic pilot, nothing beats the real thing in a competent aerobatic airplane.
 
Not interested, not because you couldn’t do it as an exercise, but because, as an experienced aerobatic pilot, nothing beats the real thing in a competent aerobatic airplane.
Hm, I guess you didn't catch the troll in the other thread. That's OK, you didn't miss much other than a moment or two of entertainment:
 
Hm, I guess you didn't catch the troll in the other thread. That's OK, you didn't miss much other than a moment or two of entertainment:
Yep, I did miss that rather long thread. I guess the title query of a dumb pilot trick (apologies to the Aerobat exception) was not enticing enough to open the cover.
 
Does this have any useful value for an experienced XC and IR Private Pilot ?

Sell it to fund the funky cold medina of hobby equipment: model railroad / ham radio gear.
 
@MajorTurbulence what is the biggest part of IFR training/currency? Is it not instrument scanning with knowing how to follow procedures? I would suggest that MSFS or XPlane allow for this in varying degrees. No, it will not feel like a real plane. No, you will not be able to translate the actual motor motions to the real plane, but that should not be the goal. However, your scanning? Absolutely can be transferred. Instinctively knowing how to hold at an assigned fix? Absolutely.

If you want you can even add the radio component. Vatsim (free) or PilotEdge (paid, actual ATC trained controllers) is an option.

I would say that operating w/in the limitations of the sim you can accomplish a lot of productive training.

* Yes, if you train the wrong habits they will become a liability to you later. By the same token, if you train the right habits they will be a benefit to you later.
 
@MajorTurbulence what is the biggest part of IFR training/currency? Is it not instrument scanning with knowing how to follow procedures? I would suggest that MSFS or XPlane allow for this in varying degrees. No, it will not feel like a real plane. No, you will not be able to translate the actual motor motions to the real plane, but that should not be the goal. However, your scanning? Absolutely can be transferred. Instinctively knowing how to hold at an assigned fix? Absolutely.

If you want you can even add the radio component. Vatsim (free) or PilotEdge (paid, actual ATC trained controllers) is an option.

I would say that operating w/in the limitations of the sim you can accomplish a lot of productive training.

* Yes, if you train the wrong habits they will become a liability to you later. By the same token, if you train the right habits they will be a benefit to you later.
There is a lot of wisdom here.

I am learning to compartmentalization two goals here:
One, as you suggest, to stick to the scanning required to main proper course, altitude and airspeed while in cruise and transition to approach procedures as I follow them, while ignoring the idiosyncrasies in landing or other things that just instill bad habits or aspects not at all transferable to my real plane.
In fact, the twitchy character of the controls make one’s rapid scan even more important. Now, still trying to figure out how to add those IAPs to this particular program to enhance the value proposition.

Two, as a game where simulating an airplane or jet that I will never really fly into different airport scenarios. However even in game form, I can see the benefit in maintaining the instrument scan to fulfill the same as in goal one.
 
I made extensive use of FSX during my instrument training using a Garmin 430 add on as well as after while trying to stay current. Couldn’t log it but was great practice. I can’t speak to how it is on a game console. I only use it on a desk top or laptop computer.

I have owned nearly every version of Microsoft FS since 4. I haven’t seen the any past X because it can’t be purchased on any kind of media and installed. Only downloaded and installed.
 
By the way… I had about 3000 hours when I started my instrument training.
 
… ignoring the idiosyncrasies in landing...
Until you’re in a Level D sim, landings aren’t really useful training in any sim primarily because of cues to peripheral vision, flight model, and motion limits.
 
while ignoring the idiosyncrasies in landing or other things that just instill bad habits or aspects not at all transferable to my real plane.

You could also use the bug (idiosyncrasies of the landing) as a feature to get you used to doing missed approaches. (Ultimately leading to you practicing off airport landings due to running out of fuel)

In fact, the twitchy character of the controls make one’s rapid scan even more important.

I cannot speak for MSFS as I am currently an XP guy, but on XP there is a control sensitivity setting where you can configure the sensitivity of each axis. I'd imagine MSFS has something similar which might help w/ the twitchiness.

Now, still trying to figure out how to add those IAPs to this particular program to enhance the value proposition.
So here's a youtube for the Cessna 172/G1000 setup in MSFS. I've jumped you to where he's doing the button pushing.
Here's another one for just general flight planning with MSFS.

Hope these help with getting you going.
 
I use MSFS on the xbox with a turtle beach setup. You can download the Archer II with a 430 in it. You can then download the 430 so that it functions correctly. Once you get used to working the 430 with the xbox controller, you can fly approaches with the 430. So I just set up flights with overcast at like 1000ft and fly an approach to another airport ifr
 
Preface: I use MSFS 2020 on PC - not too sure about xbox version. I would recommend anyone to invest the time and money in a home sim setup. The amount of time and money it has saved me in the sky has far outweighed any investment I made into the home equipment.

I'm a PPL student who has more hours logged in sim than actual aircraft. The sim has been a HUGE help to me so far - although I'm at a different stage than you are in my learning I don't see why it wouldn't benefit you too.

From the get-go the sim is how I learned and became familiar with the 6-pack and flight controls. I plan to use it to learn to fly a G1000 before I upgrade.

After learning some pattern work with my instructor, I was able to nail down my procedures in far fewer actual flight hours.

landings aren’t really useful training in any sim primarily because of cues to peripheral vision, flight model, and motion limits.

Gonna disagree with this comment here. Sim helped me to get on speed and altitude for each leg of the pattern, build pre-landing checklist habits, even get a ballpark of RPM setting I can use for downwind and descent since there is a 172 in the sim (and yes you can roll it hahaha). Once you adjust your view settings the sight picture is actually pretty accurate (it helps to have a widescreen monitor). Ground effect is wierdly smooth and not very accurate - so you can't really practice flare or the final stages of xwind landings. But that doesn't seem relevant to your use-case anyways. (I remember my first real landing - it was a bit windy and intructor said he would take over on short final. When short final came I said "I think I got this", full of confidence from hours of home simming. He gave me a "let's see what you got" look and leaned back in his seat, as if about to enjoy a good show. Well, lets just say it was a ROUGH landing and my confidence was instantly shattered. I think instructor spilled his popcorn haha.)

I practice my emergency procedures in the sim. It's nice because after practicing an emergency descent and losing 2000' you can click a button and jump back up to 3500+ AGL to do some stalls or spins or whatever else. This software add-on will even give you instrument failures in-flight that you have to troubleshoot. I haven't yet tried it yet but I love the idea.

Also - the map is beautiful (I believe it is just Bing maps satellite images) and pretty much 100% accurate. I have flown an AATD before and I was surprised they had crappy fake maps. Before a XC you can fly in MSFS and get an idea of what your waypoints look like from the air, use the VORs, get familiar with your destination airport, etc. This made my actual XC flights so much more valuable since I had all this reference data in brain already. (Not hating on AATDs - but this is one area where the cheapo home sim is far superior). There are even communities where you can talk to "ATC" (vatsim, pilotedge) and practice your radio work during your flight. I haven't found the built-in ATC to be much help - I turn that off.

There is definitely a learning curve associated with the sim - you are not playing Mario. But since you already know how to fly (unlike I did when I started simming) all you need to learn is which button does what. Probably took me a good 20 hours to get comfortable with the keyboard shortcuts, get my custom views set up, and learn the other quirks with weather, and whatnot. But I was also learning what everything in the plane does at the same time. I haven't had any issues with software bugs, but you do need to have the proper hardware and graphics settings.
 
Ground effect is wierdly smooth and not very accurate - so you can't really practice flare or the final stages of xwind landings.
I would say that I like to practice with sig x-wind landings because it does help me practice cross controlling the ailerons and rudder before touchdown.
 
I would say that I like to practice with sig x-wind landings because it does help me practice cross controlling the ailerons and rudder before touchdown.

Encouraging to hear - I'll give it another try since my xwind landings definitely need work.
 
You could also use the bug (idiosyncrasies of the landing) as a feature to get you used to doing missed approaches. (Ultimately leading to you practicing off airport landings due to running out of fuel)



I cannot speak for MSFS as I am currently an XP guy, but on XP there is a control sensitivity setting where you can configure the sensitivity of each axis. I'd imagine MSFS has something similar which might help w/ the twitchiness.


So here's a youtube for the Cessna 172/G1000 setup in MSFS. I've jumped you to where he's doing the button pushing.
Here's another one for just general flight planning with MSFS.

Hope these help with getting you going.
Thanks for those videos. I think I’ve gotten to first base as you’ve helped me discover the IFR low altitude option that gets me various selected approaches at some major airports from that second video.

That first video has me wondering how to do the flight planning on the G1000. I will try to play around with entry using the Xbox controller which I’m using simultaneously with the Thustmaster T Flight Hotas 1.
It is not clear to me yet that this can be done without utilizing a PC and mouse.
 
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I use MSFS on the xbox with a turtle beach setup. You can download the Archer II with a 430 in it. You can then download the 430 so that it functions correctly. Once you get used to working the 430 with the xbox controller, you can fly approaches with the 430. So I just set up flights with overcast at like 1000ft and fly an approach to another airport ifr
My real-life aircraft is an Archer2 with G430W and and Aspen PFD, so your comment has me intrigued.

Since my preferred sim aircraft is the Archer2 with a G430W, what do I need to do to get that aircraft with the 430 into MSFS. I already downloaded the free 430 option but it does not replace the G1000 on the free C172. Really, I don’t need the Archer2 as just flying the C172 using the same speeds as my Archer is close enough. But getting the g430 would be preferred.

Also, what would the Turtle beach setup do for me? Is it some kind of sim ATC headset, or is it the Velocity yoke and throttle quadrant that they offer in their product line?
 
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It is not clear to me yet that this can be done without utilizing a PC and mouse.
You can plug in a bluetooth keyboard and mouse into the xbox. This is where PC is miles ahead of xbox. You can talk to real people on atc on PC

The archer III in the game comes with a 430 I think its made by carenado
 
I've been using PC sims for about as long as PC sims have existed. I still remember playing the first 'color' version of MSFS on an IBM 8086. The early versions all started at Meigs Fields (RIP) and this one even had 2 buildings in the skyline LOL!

Today, MSFS is uncanny in the photo realism of the scenery but the main value proposition remains procedural practice due to ongoing limitations with the flight models and visuals especially in landings. I've done some video comparisons of real flights vs the sim and it's very close.

As a lucky happenstance, once of the best aftermarket addons for the PC version is the A2A Comanche which models my real aircraft quite well. It includes an option for a GTXI 750 emulator that uses Garmin's actual trainer software for loading all types of procedures. Does it land like the real Comanche -- not really -- but power settings and performance are pretty spot on otherwise.

You can also drive ForeFlight or Garmin Pilot from the Sim - allowing for practice on the apps as well. Practicing short XC flights on the PC has really helped me get familiar with the new apps and button pushing on the GTXI / GTN units as well as some of the nuances of loading and flying different types of procedures.
 
I've been using PC sims for about as long as PC sims have existed. I still remember playing the first 'color' version of MSFS on an IBM 8086. The early versions all started at Meigs Fields (RIP) and this one even had 2 buildings in the skyline LOL!
I am old enough to have actually landed at Meigs many times to visit relatives and to attend conferences at McCormick. The last time was just before they dug the trench :(:(
 
I am old enough to have actually landed at Meigs many times to visit relatives and to attend conferences at McCormick. The last time was just before they dug the trench :(:(
Me too, very fond memories landing there in our AA-5B Tiger in the late 80's early 90's before it closed.
 
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