Does the FAA has a place in aviation?

[N918KT]

Guys, what do you think of the FAA? Does it have a place in aviation? Do you think the FAA is needed to regulate some but not all aspects of aviation? Or do you think the FAA should be eliminated?

 

[SoonerAviator]

I really hope you aren't serious with this question. Of course they have a place in aviation. Now, whether they have too large a scope or have too much authority is another question. They are a necessary evil, and I can't think of an intelligent argument on how they aren't needed at all.

 

[JB1842]

Like every other government agency, they serve a purpose, but have corrupted that into way more bureaucracy than what is needed.

 

[Henning]

Yes, the FAA is needed. They police the standards that the insurance actuaries use to set their premiums. It doesn't need to be a government organization, it could be privatized as it is in much of shipping by the Class Societies, however we are all for public costs for private gains, so we charge the taxpayer to do it.

Without the FAA or an organization doing the same thing, the entire aviation industry would be uninsurable.

 

[KA550]

Just when you think all the dumb questions have been asked, you find out how wrong you were.

What is next? Do airplanes really fly?

 

[RotorAndWing]

Go around the world and see what it's like in countries with a almost non existent Civil Aviation Authority or at best a very weak one. Get back to us on how much better off they are.

 

[N801BH]

Never had a bad experience with the FAA in 35 years of flying...

Even when I created my deathtrap.. They were more then professional during the entire process.. Last dealings I had with them was the fatal crash I witnessed last year and all during that investigation they were top notch...

 

[frfly172]

Too much bereaucracy, not keeping up with latesest changes available to the flying public.

 

[ClimbnSink]

The faa should stick to landing people on the moon and grounding those dangerous fat pilots.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

 

[Henning]

Too much bereaucracy, not keeping up with latesest changes available to the flying public.

I think they are trying to rid themselves of the GA burden. Thing is they have to do it in an orderly fashion, and they are. LSA was the proving ground to relinquish governing authority to the private sector, and Experimental/Non Commercial will take it another step forward. It is also providing data in the 'no PP medical' debate.

The big difference between GA and Air Carrier service is that Strict Liability applies to Air Carriers.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Henning......the FAA has no liability for anything.

just rules.....and cops man.

I think they are trying to rid themselves of the GA burden. Thing is they have to do it in an orderly fashion, and they are. LSA was the proving ground to relinquish governing authority to the private sector, and Experimental/Non Commercial will take it another step forward. It is also providing data in the 'no PP medical' debate.

The big difference between GA and Air Carrier service is that Strict Liability applies to Air Carriers.

 

[ClimbnSink]

 

[ClimbnSink]

Rumor was pre 9/11 the faa was going to hand over glider licensing to the soaring society of America. Was going to be a nongov license enforced by insurance extortion, same as hang gliders and skydivers. Kinda glad they didn't the little advocate orgs can be worse than the big b'crat bear.

I think they are trying to rid themselves of the GA burden. Thing is they have to do it in an orderly fashion, and they are. LSA was the proving ground to relinquish governing authority to the private sector, and Experimental/Non Commercial will take it another step forward. It is also providing data in the 'no PP medical' debate.

The big difference between GA and Air Carrier service is that Strict Liability applies to Air Carriers.

 

[Henning]

Henning......the FAA has no liability for anything.

just rules.....and cops man.

The AIRLINE has strict liability, no matter what happens or why, the airline is on the hook for every dime, that means their insurer is on the hook, and it's big money. In order to set the premiums for the operations, the actuaries need to know what standards are being met so they can calculate the risk and assess a value. This is how Lloyd's started the industry centuries ago with shipping. They set standards that mitigate risk, then survey the operations to make sure those standards are being met. When aviation developed here we decided to spread the cost of this service beyond the direct cost to the consumers, to spread it across all our society by making it a government function as have most countries.

The FAA most certainly is liable to the Insurance Industry to govern the standards.

 

[RotorAndWing]

The FAA most certainly is liable to the Insurance Industry to govern the standards.

You need to put the bong down for a while.

I think they are trying to rid themselves of the GA burden. Thing is they have to do it in an orderly fashion, and they are. LSA was the proving ground to relinquish governing authority to the private sector, and Experimental/Non Commercial will take it another step forward. It is also providing data in the 'no PP medical' debate.

The big difference between GA and Air Carrier service is that Strict Liability applies to Air Carriers.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

The FAA most certainly is liable to the Insurance Industry to govern the standards.

NOpe.....

 

[Henning]

NOpe.....

They would quickly be replaced of staff should airliners start crashing and insurance companies hundreds of millions of uncalculated costs by actuaries. Heads of the FAA would be facing trials and congressional hearings.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

You need to put the bong down for a while.

here.....lemme borrow that thingy for a while.

 

[N801BH]

They would quickly be replaced of staff should airliners start crashing and insurance companies hundreds of millions of uncalculated costs by actuaries. Heads of the FAA would be facing trials and congressional hearings.

Henning.....

NO one in DC goes on trial... No matter how bad they #uck up...\

And , congressional hearing are just window dressing... Just axe Louis Lerner...

 

[RotorAndWing]

A typical day for henning.....

 

[Gucci Pilot]

Coming from someone who has operated in quite a few different countries. The FAA is just fine by me.

 

[mtuomi]

Go around the world and see what it's like in countries with a almost non existent Civil Aviation Authority or at best a very weak one. Get back to us on how much better off they are.

The worst case is when there are tens of strong CAA's, all merged and trying to act as one, where each one is run by people with absolutely no idea about Civil Aviation.

Case in point: EASA.

 

[RotorAndWing]

The worst case is when there are tens of strong CAA's, all merged and trying to act as one, where each one is run by people with absolutely no idea about Civil Aviation.

Case in point: EASA.

True, but listen to all of the Americans who want us to be like Europe..

 

[JHW]

Rumor was pre 9/11 the faa was going to hand over glider licensing to the soaring society of America. Was going to be a nongov license enforced by insurance extortion, same as hang gliders and skydivers. Kinda glad they didn't the little advocate orgs can be worse than the big b'crat bear.

that's how gliding is done in australia

 

[MichiPilot]

Do you like landing at airports?

 

[ClimbnSink]

No I prefer fields and beaches.

 

[N801BH]

Do you like landing at airports?

Hmmm..
I bet the private sector could do a better job then the FAA..... They have so many obscure rules that it actually creates a deterant to run or even build new airports........ IMHO.

 

[N918KT]

Hmmm..
I bet the private sector could do a better job then the FAA..... They have so many obscure rules that it actually creates a deterant to run or even build new airports........ IMHO.

Really? I studied how airports are run in college, and I always thought it was necessary that the FAA should regulate airports, whether operating, maintaining, expanding, or building them.

I had no ideas that those regulations also cause a deterrant to running or building Part 139 airports.

 

[petrolero]

I think the private sector would do a better job in many parts of aviation. But coming up with a coherent set of flight rules and managing the national airspace system - those tasks are rightly functions of government.

But building aircraft, aircraft parts, and avionics... the FAA actually causes death by making it so hard to innovate. Oh but it is much harder to point to deaths that weren't prevented than to point to deaths that happened as a direct result of something the FAA approved. So they have an incentive to default to "NO!".

When it comes to innovation, government sucks and sucks badly. That's why the government should stick to basic rulemaking governing the NAS and not get into the minutia of certification.

Pilots have their skin in the game - they want safety. Airlines stand to lose brazillions of dollars if they kill people. They want safety. When they screw up and kill passengers, the public today seems to think the only conceivable solution is government regs. But those regs kill people too - they just require more analysis to find. Airlines also want passengers - and passengers demand safety. So why does it follow that only government, which has no skin in the game other than saving political face, is the only body that can keep us safe?

How many technologies have not come to market - or came to market late - or came to market with fewer features than they might have - or came to market with an astronomical price tag - because of FAA cert regs? How many companies have gone under during and because of the certification process? Or just given up?

AOA indicators? Where have they been the past... what... 50-odd years since they were invented? Not on our aircraft, that's for sure. They cost too much for the amount of perceived benefit. But all of a sudden people started calling the FAA on their blockage of innovation (if you call something many decades old "innovative" - but that's how cumbersome the cert regs are).

And now the FAA says they will make certifications easier. Maybe, but that is not necessarily saying much.

 

[JohnAJohnson]

We've authorized the federal government to enter into treaties with other states, and some agency needs to represent us in the ICAO.

Other than that... They should vanish just like the federal agency overseeing lawnmowers, boats, ATVs, etc. Unencumbered competition always creates the safest, cheapest, and best quality product.

 

[RotorAndWing]

We've authorized the federal government to enter into treaties with other states, and some agency needs to represent us in the ICAO.

Other than that... They should vanish just like the federal agency overseeing lawnmowers, boats, ATVs, etc. Unencumbered competition always creates the safest, cheapest, and best quality product.

So the FAA is dissolved and everyone rejoices and dances in the streets.

Now you decide you need to go on a business trip to Europe and you want to fly on a US carrier. Sorry, US carriers are now banned from ICAO compliant countries. No problem you say, I'll just fly on a foreign carrier. However, since the US now is not ICAO compliant, foreign carriers will not fly into US airspace or land on US airports.

Oh well, there's always cruise lines.

Now you decide to fly your PiperBeechCessnaMooneyRV to the Bahamas for a little R&R. Sorry, not going to happen since your license or the aircraft license is not recognized outside of ICAO.

Oh well, there's always cruise lines.

Now you decide to get on an "airline" and fly to the coast. You notice ticket prices are really cheap now since there are so many in the "airline business" now since there is no regulation. As you sit at the gate here comes your airplane, a well worn BAC 1-11 with multiple paint schemes on it (what you can make out through the filth). As it parks you notice lots of fluid dripping underneath the wings and wheel well and a few local truck mechanics with wrenches walking around it (wearing their John Deer hats).

Now you board and see two guys in the cockpit in t-shirts and cutoff's that look like Spicoli busily preparing for the flight with their 10 year old sectional charts scattered around the cockpit and a well used portable Garmin GPS on the glare shield. You look down the aisle and see seats from various other airliners, parts missing, etc. Mechanic Billy Bob Jim runs up to the cockpit and announces "Hey Capt, that fuel pump looking thing is a leaking bad, but Jimmy Bob Ray ran down to O'Reilly's to get us a 'nother one, he says it looks like one that works on a 'ol Chevy truck!"

Oh well, there's always cruise lines.

 

[N801BH]

So the FAA is dissolved and everyone rejoices and dances in the streets.

Now you decide you need to go on a business trip to Europe and you want to fly on a US carrier. Sorry, US carriers are now banned from ICAO compliant countries. No problem you say, I'll just fly on a foreign carrier. However, since the US now is not ICAO compliant, foreign carriers will not fly into US airspace or land on US airports.

Oh well, there's always cruise lines.

Now you decide to fly your PiperBeechCessnaMooneyRV to the Bahamas for a little R&R. Sorry, not going to happen since your license or the aircraft license is not recognized outside of ICAO.

Oh well, there's always cruise lines.

Now you decide to get on an "airline" and fly to the coast. You notice ticket prices are really cheap now since there are so many in the "airline business" now since there is no regulation. As you sit at the gate here comes your airplane, a well worn BAC 1-11 with multiple paint schemes on it (what you can make out through the filth). As it parks you notice lots of fluid dripping underneath the wings and wheel well and a few local truck mechanics with wrenches walking around it (wearing their John Deer hats).

Now you board and see two guys in the cockpit in t-shirts and cutoff's that look like Spicoli busily preparing for the flight with their 10 year old sectional charts scattered around the cockpit and a well used portable Garmin GPS on the glare shield. You look down the aisle and see seats from various other airliners, parts missing, etc. Mechanic Billy Bob Jim runs up to the cockpit and announces "Hey Capt, that fuel pump looking thing is a leaking bad, but Jimmy Bob Ray ran down to O'Reilly's to get us a 'nother one, he says it looks like one that works on a 'ol Chevy truck!"

Oh well, there's always cruise lines.

Cute................. A little over the top... but cute...

 

[SkyHog]

The FAA was invented to keep airlines from hitting each other when they learned that they didn't have the skill to avoid it themselves.

We in GA have been dealing with the consequences ever since.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

The FAA was invented to keep airlines from hitting each other when they learned that they didn't have the skill to avoid it themselves.

We in GA have been dealing with the consequences ever since.

ya....but.

 

[RotorAndWing]

ya....but.

Don't let any facts get in the way....

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Most who condem the FAA are usually low time or young. I've flown for 45 years and have always been treated very fairly by anyone in the FAA. On the other hand, I've always followed the rules. Never had a problem. In two instances they went out of their way to help. Most rules they inforce are reaction to idiotic decisions by pilots who have killed themselves and usually others.

 

[JohnAJohnson]

Your two points; No ICAO standards, and low quality airlines a dime a dozen...

I specifically said the FAA was needed to represent us in the ICAO, so your first point is invalid.

To your second point - Don't you think the market would ignore the BAC 1-11 airline in favor of the professionally run, safe airline?

Bottom line is, if the FAA were around in 1903 there wouldn't be an airline industry today. And what we have today under the tutelage of the FAA for part 91, 135, and 121 is in most people's minds a stagnant, if not circling the drain industry in the USA. So yea, let's keep on the path we're on. Everything will be just fine

So the FAA is dissolved and everyone rejoices and dances in the streets.

Now you decide you need to go on a business trip to Europe and you want to fly on a US carrier. Sorry, US carriers are now banned from ICAO compliant countries. No problem you say, I'll just fly on a foreign carrier. However, since the US now is not ICAO compliant, foreign carriers will not fly into US airspace or land on US airports.

Oh well, there's always cruise lines.

Now you decide to fly your PiperBeechCessnaMooneyRV to the Bahamas for a little R&R. Sorry, not going to happen since your license or the aircraft license is not recognized outside of ICAO.

Oh well, there's always cruise lines.

Now you decide to get on an "airline" and fly to the coast. You notice ticket prices are really cheap now since there are so many in the "airline business" now since there is no regulation. As you sit at the gate here comes your airplane, a well worn BAC 1-11 with multiple paint schemes on it (what you can make out through the filth). As it parks you notice lots of fluid dripping underneath the wings and wheel well and a few local truck mechanics with wrenches walking around it (wearing their John Deer hats).

Now you board and see two guys in the cockpit in t-shirts and cutoff's that look like Spicoli busily preparing for the flight with their 10 year old sectional charts scattered around the cockpit and a well used portable Garmin GPS on the glare shield. You look down the aisle and see seats from various other airliners, parts missing, etc. Mechanic Billy Bob Jim runs up to the cockpit and announces "Hey Capt, that fuel pump looking thing is a leaking bad, but Jimmy Bob Ray ran down to O'Reilly's to get us a 'nother one, he says it looks like one that works on a 'ol Chevy truck!"

Oh well, there's always cruise lines.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Private corporations did not start the airlines alone. It was with tremendous subsides from the postal dept. of the government. Without government help the airlines were done for, still true today as we've had to bail out many of them. Also true of the railroads..... big government help , especially during their formation. Many old private railroad fortunes made off government money! So naturally the government had to set some rules for the airlines and general aviation, and reacted to blunders and poor operating procedures with more rules. Not hard to fathom is it? Without the GI bill after WW2 , many small airports would not even exist nor would many small aircraft producers. The GI bill allowed many many small airports to stay in business. The FAA is no different from any major private corporation that gets lazy and has poor management. General Motors being a prime example.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Wait I thought pilots were always arguing that airports were cash positive good for everybody, now we hear they wouldn't exist without gov't largess. Well I say make something useful out of them, like parks or casinos.