Does ground/clearance delivery know the phrase "learner pilot"?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by schmookeeg, Nov 12, 2022.

  1. schmookeeg

    schmookeeg En-Route

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    Hello,

    For whatever reason, in my circles, "student pilot" is a term of offense. and I've started using "Learner pilot". Doesn't bother me none, I dunno who "student" offends, I don't really care.

    However...

    If I am to, say, receive an IFR clearance, and I have a learner/student/noob onboard with me and I wish to have the controller read the clearance slowly, instead of in auctioneer mode -- I used to be able to suffix my request with "student pilot" to achieve this.

    Will "learner pilot" work here just as well, or will the controller have no idea what that signifies, and will spray us with the clearance firehose?

    Curious about any anecdotes you might have :)

    Cheers,

    - Mike
    (learner student of flight instructioning)
     
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  2. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Did the FAA change the wording in the AIM guidance when dealing with ATC?
     
  3. nauga

    nauga Administrator Management Council Member PoA Technical Administrator

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    Two instructors talking in the FBO:
    "I have a new student."
    "Learner?"
    "Not from what I can tell."

    Nauga,
    who can learn you how to fly real good.
     
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  4. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    When I was learning to fly the school airplanes used "Academy" in radio calls. Tower knew they were dealing with students. It worked well.
     
  5. rk911

    rk911 Line Up and Wait

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    to whom is the word "student" offensive?
     
  6. Salty

    Salty Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yeah, but can you student me?
     
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  7. texasclouds

    texasclouds En-Route

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    Talk nice and easy like, they’ll match your cadence.
     
  8. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Bro do you even lift
    you need different circles. you will never hear me saying learner pilot, it's not even an option.

    I did hear a student pilot say "student pilot" recently on the radio. that is, oddly enough, because they are in fact a student pilot.
     
  9. Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)

    Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) Line Up and Wait

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    Say again?

    Say again all after . . .

    My 14th primary instructor (1992 - I was 18 at the time) yelled at me for saying student pilot at the end of my transmission with Peoria Approach. He told me how embarrassing it was and to NEVER use it with him onboard and only in an emergency if he wasn't onboard.

    I honestly think that is dumb. You do you. If you are more comfortable saying student pilot, say it.

    If you said "learner pilot" I (I'm not a controller) would assume you were a foreign trained pilot or something because that isn't standard phraseology. To me, that reflects poorly on your instructor(s) because you are presumably solo and using incorrect terminology.

    My $0.02.

    EVERY SINGLE (or married) PILOT YOU WILL MEET STARTED AS A STUDENT PILOT!!!! Every one of us. Not something to be ashamed of.

    Don't act like you have experience you haven't yet earned. You miss a lot of learning that way.
     
  10. texasclouds

    texasclouds En-Route

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    we’re all learner pilots…
     
  11. schmookeeg

    schmookeeg En-Route

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    This is actually making me want to figure out where this "learner pilot" business started. I actually have no idea and not even a guess as to why.
     
  12. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    “Say again”, 3 or 4 times in a row doesn’t work?

    There are a lot of students mixed with corporate traffic at my airport. Talked with one of the tower controllers a week or so ago. He’s known for rapid fire clearances. His take (paraphrased), “If the pilot catches it first time, great. If not, ask me to repeat it slower.” A lot of times we have one controller handling tower, ground, clearances, and no radar so he or she doesn’t have a lot of time to spend on one aircraft.
     
  13. nauga

    nauga Administrator Management Council Member PoA Technical Administrator

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    IIRC it was a change to the Flight Instructors' Handbook, not a wholesale search and replace for every use of the term in all FAA guidance/regs. People at both extremes are bent out of shape over it, while at least one in the middle doesn't give a rat's.

    Nauga,
    the one in the middle
     
  14. Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)

    Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) Line Up and Wait

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    @nauga this is an actual recommended change? In a government publication (is the Flight Instructor's handbook a sanctioned source or from one of the flight instructor organizations)?
     
  15. nauga

    nauga Administrator Management Council Member PoA Technical Administrator

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    It is an FAA publication, and I misspoke, it's the "Aviation Instructor's Handbook"

    Nauga,
    with no agenda
     
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  16. Racerx

    Racerx Pattern Altitude

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    I remember they changed cockpit to flight deck, student to learner, and Notice to Airmen to air missions. Change to substantiate someone's job I'm sure.
     
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  17. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    Our tax dollars at work, making the skies safer.
     
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  18. Llewtrah381

    Llewtrah381 Line Up and Wait

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    6298D96B-6899-45C0-A221-E98586AFD055.jpeg
    Put one of these on the plane and they don’t need to say anything. ATC will already know…
     
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  19. Llewtrah381

    Llewtrah381 Line Up and Wait

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    ???? How are curmudgeonly flight instructors paid via tax dollars?
     
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  20. SkyChaser

    SkyChaser Cleared for Takeoff

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    It's not them. It's the FAA employees who get paid with tax dollars. We got to pay them to go through a committee to decide if "learner pilot" is more appropriate than "student", we got to pay them to go through and change the verbiage, we got to pay them to make all sorts of silly decisions.

    Honestly, I think the term "learner pilot" is clunky and the term doesn't sound like something a native English speaker would use easily. I think it should have been changed to "pilot-in-training" if student is so offensive. :D
     
  21. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Touchdown! Greaser!

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    “Client” has worked quite well for my company over the years.
     
  22. nauga

    nauga Administrator Management Council Member PoA Technical Administrator

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    Who says anyone *has to* use the term? If it's because people in 'your circle' don't like another term, the fault does not lie with the FAA, nor is the requirement to use it binding.

    Nauga,
    who doesn't care how you refer to yourself
     
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  23. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Touchdown! Greaser!

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    STUdent Pilot Ever Nearer being DOne Under Supervision.

    STUPENDOUS, for short.
     
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  24. Racerx

    Racerx Pattern Altitude

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    Did we have to change student driver to learner driver? How clunky does that sound?
     
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  25. nauga

    nauga Administrator Management Council Member PoA Technical Administrator

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    I like STUdent Pilot ID, but I don't recall ever using it, ATC just assumed I was.

    Nauga,
    intuitively oblivious
     
  26. nauga

    nauga Administrator Management Council Member PoA Technical Administrator

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    Knowing a bit about flying in your area I'd hazard a guess that some of the local controllers might recognize it. Elsewhere I'd bet it might be more problematic, or at a minimum get you several "say agains" but my recent experience is limited to a pretty small area of the country.

    Nauga,
    and his WEZ
     
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  27. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    They aren't.

    FAA employees who changed the Flight Instructor's Handbook are.
     
  28. Plano Pilot

    Plano Pilot Line Up and Wait

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    A control tower prided itself on the speed of delivery of clearances aircraft (after hearing a high speed delivery). "You hear the speed I'm talking? That's the speed I'm listening."
     
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  29. schmookeeg

    schmookeeg En-Route

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    To be clear, I do not actually know anyone mad at the use of "student pilot", but I placed the assumption that language change = someone got butthurt somewhere.

    Rather than engage with the thin-skinned paranoia, I just follow the herd and use the term du jour and gendered pronouns only after hearing them self-referentially first. :D I am optimizing for least cognitive load to myself -- hence the poll the audience lifeline in use here.
     
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  30. Half Fast

    Half Fast Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Since the FAA is obviously okay with “instructor,” why don’t we just use “instructee?”
     
  31. Half Fast

    Half Fast Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Try saying, “Once more, with feeling. Let’s hear some emotion this time. Say it like your heart is breaking.”
     
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  32. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    As silly as the term "learner" is, it is not and was not intended to be a a substitute for "student pilot".
     
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  33. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I just downloaded the latest version of the AIM. There are many references to student pilots. See section 4-2-4 for example. "Learner" doesn't appear even once. (Neither term is in the Pilot/Controller Glossary.)
     
  34. nauga

    nauga Administrator Management Council Member PoA Technical Administrator

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    But what if I want to be outraged by it?

    Nauga,
    putting the 'aged' in outraged
     
  35. Half Fast

    Half Fast Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Could you try being enraged instead of outraged? It’s less outrageous.
     
  36. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Sure. Go ahead. I'll be taking a nap in the meantime (speaking of "aged")
     
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  37. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Touchdown! Greaser!

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    What if he keeps his outrage inside? What do you call inner outrage?
     
  38. Half Fast

    Half Fast Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Maybe you’d call it enrageous...?
     
  39. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I still use the Summit aviation CD. The term "learner" appears in the AIH (throughout), the CFI PTS (a few times), FSIMS (a few times), and in an AC dealing with medical resource management (a few times). In the latter, it's not the new FAA use since the AC goes back to 2006. There, it appears in its more traditional usage - the difference between visual, auditory and kinesthetic learners - and I suppose at least some of the AIH references use it in that sense as well. Not as euphemism for "someone who is learning something even if they have a higher grade pilot certificate higher than a student pilot certificate."
     
  40. OkieAviator

    OkieAviator Pattern Altitude

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    Even as a student pilot I never used 'student pilot'(or learner) on the radio. I feel like I missed out on something...
     
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