Does Class G airspace at surface change when airport becomes IFR?

[FlyingJ]

A fellow pilot and I disagree on the status of Class G airspace at our local airport (KFHU).
I have attached a screenshot of the sectional (airspace is complex but actually easy to fly in/out).

It is a joint use airport (Libby AAF & Sierra Vista Municipal). During the week (M-F) it is Class D while the tower is open. There are Class E extensions to the surface for approaches and an overlying Class E at 700' AGL. Restricted areas are active.

On weekends and holidays, it is Class G. Restricted Areas are inactive (except R-2312 to the south).

My friend insists (because someone else said the FAA told them) the airport surface changes from Class G to Class E when the airport is IFR (and tower is closed - e.g., Sat & Sun). I have found nothing in FARs, AIM, or a google search to support this statement. Neither can he but maintains it is true.

The A/FD states: AIRSPACE: CLASS D svc 0700Z Mon–0600Z Fri exc holidays other times CLASS G
There is a note in AIM 3-2-6 e(2) that states: If a part–time Class C, Class D, or Class E surface area becomes Class G airspace, the arrival extensions will change to Class G at the same time.

My view is that the surface area remains Class G and, although not necessarily advisable, it is legal when flying VFR to approach and land as long as Class G minimum visibility & cloud clearance requirements are met and altitude is below overlying Class E (e.g., ceiling 800, visibility 2 miles, altitude 500 AGL).

Anyone know of a rule or regulation that would change airport airspace from Class G to Class E under IFR conditions? Supporting or dissenting opinions?

​

 

[MAKG1]

Who determines when a nontowered airport is "IFR?"

 

[flyingron]

You are right. When the tower is closed it is class G, per the Chart Supplement. It matters not what the weather conditions are (and yes, the class E extensions go to class G with the main surface area).

His argument is ludicrous. It makes absolutely NO sense to have airspace that changes class based on weather conditions when it is the airspace class that defines what is necessary for VFR anyhow.

Who determines when a nontowered airport is "IFR?"

The official weather observer. There are plenty of class E surface areas that get designated IFR absent a tower. However, it's likely the reason this field goes to class G when the tower goes home because the tower is also the weather observer. Such is NOT always the case (especially with the prevalence of AWOS and related stations).

 

[FlyingJ]

Who determines when a nontowered airport is "IFR?"

A very good question. Probably when the METAR officially reports it as IFR conditions (ceiling/visibility). However, if Class G in effect, definition changes from the standard 3 miles, 1000'.

 

[FlyingJ]

You are right. When the tower is closed it is class G, per the Chart Supplement. It matters not what the weather conditions are (and yes, the class E extensions go to class G with the main surface area).

His argument is ludicrous. It makes absolutely NO sense to have airspace that changes class based on weather conditions when it is the airspace class that defines what is necessary for VFR anyhow.


The official weather observer. There are plenty of class E surface areas that get designated IFR absent a tower. However, it's likely the reason this field goes to class G when the tower goes home because the tower is also the weather observer. Such is NOT always the case (especially with the prevalence of AWOS and related stations).

Exactly. Thanks, Ron.
There is an AWOS and METARs/SPECI are issued and part of ATIS when tower is closed.

 

[Velocity173]

Exactly. Thanks, Ron.
There is an AWOS and METARs/SPECI are issued and part of ATIS when tower is closed.

That's part of the requirement to have a surface E. You also need comms to the surface with the overlying ATC facility. If you can't contact Tucson app / ABQ center, it's not going to become a surface area. Even then, with WX reporting to ATC and comms to the surface with ATC, it MAY be designated class E to the surface when tower closes.

Simple answer, no, IFR conditions have nothing to do with making your D revert E when they close. It becomes G.

 

[FlyingJ]

That's part of the requirement to have a surface E. You also need comms to the surface with the overlying ATC facility. If you can't contact Tucson app / ABQ center, it's not going to become a surface area. Even then, with WX reporting to ATC and comms to the surface with ATC, it MAY be designated class E to the surface when tower closes.

Simple answer, no, IFR conditions have nothing to do with making your D revert G when they close.

Thanks. I saw the reference to Class E requirements too but, no, we have no reliable comms with ABQ until we get to 8-9000'.

 

[dmspilot]

The A/FD states: AIRSPACE: CLASS D svc 0700Z Mon–0600Z Fri exc holidays other times CLASS G

So why is there a debate? The A/FD spells it out unambiguously. Maybe your friend did not look at the A/FD.

This idea that it would change depending upon weather conditions is nonsensical. Would the airspace change from Class G to Class E if the weather went below VFR minimums for Class G, or below VFR minimums for Class E? If the former, it wouldn't even matter, since Class E is more restricted than Class G. Or maybe you average them together...it's IFR if it's 2 miles and a 500 foot ceiling.

 

[FlyingJ]

So why is there a debate? The A/FD spells it out unambiguously. Maybe your friend did not look at the A/FD.

This idea that it would change depending upon weather conditions is nonsensical. Would the airspace change from Class G to Class E if the weather went below VFR minimums for Class G, or below VFR minimums for Class E? If the former, it wouldn't even matter, since Class E is more restricted than Class G. Or maybe you average them together...it's IFR if it's 2 miles and a 500 foot ceiling.

Thanks.
I showed him the A/FD and the AIM note - not convinced. I am confident in how I read it and was just wondering if there is some obscure rule or regulation out there. I will certainly show him this thread. If still unconvinced, I will recommend he just go over and ask the controllers.

 

[luvflyin]

Thanks.
I showed him the A/FD and the AIM note - not convinced. I am confident in how I read it and was just wondering if there is some obscure rule or regulation out there. I will certainly show him this thread. If still unconvinced, I will recommend he just go over and ask the controllers.

Sounds like he has his mind made up and will probably "interpret" anything you show him to read to suit his belief. Look at the bright side. This is one guy you will never have to worry about filling your windshield as you break out of a 700 foot overcast if he practices what he preaches.

 

[FlyingJ]

Sounds like he has his mind made up and will probably "interpret" anything you show him to read to suit his belief. Look at the bright side. This is one guy you will never have to worry about filling your windshield as you break out of a 700 foot overcast if he practices what he preaches.

May or may not come around but agree he probably wouldn't get in the way.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Thanks.
I showed him the A/FD and the AIM note - not convinced. I am confident in how I read it and was just wondering if there is some obscure rule or regulation out there. I will certainly show him this thread. If still unconvinced, I will recommend he just go over and ask the controllers.

It is almost impossible to shake someone's belief with facts.

 

[MauleSkinner]

It is almost impossible to shake someone's belief with facts.

As my BIL once said, "If he believed he was the Queen of England, all relevant facts would support that in his mind."

 

[Unit74]

I think his mind is that if it's IFR, they are in ATC control. Therefore, it's controlled airspace.


However, you have no obligation to be in ATC control while IFR in class G. Look it up! Crazy as it sounds, that's the regs.

 

[midlifeflyer]

If you point at an airspace area on a sectional chart and ask him what kind of airspace it is, does he answer with the question, "what's the weather?"

Sometimes I'm just curious about the thought process that leads to certain questions.

 

[MAKG1]

If you point at an airspace area on a sectional chart and ask him what kind of airspace it is, does he answer with the question, "what's the weather?"

Sometimes I'm just curious about the thought process that leads to certain questions.

While you're right in this case, do you know anyone who would answer a dashed blue line with "What time is it?"

Virtually all the Class D's around here are part time, and all with different effective times. Even San Jose (Class C) is Class E from midnight to 6AM local. And I think you'll be hard pressed to find a local pilot here who knows that.

 

[midlifeflyer]

While you're right in this case, do you know anyone who would answer a dashed blue line with "What time is it?"

Yes I do.

When the dashed blue line (or a solid one for that matter) is accompanied by a tower frequency with a star, yes, I do expect the pilot knows that means part time operation and the airspace changes based on what time it is.

 

[MAKG1]

Yes I do.

When the dashed blue line (or a solid one for that matter) is accompanied by a tower frequency with a star, yes, I do expect the pilot knows that means part time operation and the airspace changes based on what time it is.

If you want to really probe them, ask what happens if you contact Tower during effective hours, and no one answers.

Yes, I've had that happen. Apparently, they had trouble with their transmitter. No light gun signals, either. They just opened the tower two hours late, and everyone used nontowered procedures. Even with a DP that opposes normal traffic and very close by Class B airspace, it was a nonevent.

 

[midlifeflyer]

And, is that enough to determine the class of airspace?

I really don't understand what you are saying. You know a bunch of pilots without the basic knowledge to know what the combination of blue line and stared Tower frequency means and to check the Chart Supplement for hours of operation and the associated airspace change?

Or is it that you see something on the chart that indicates airspace changes based on weather conditions and to check the Chart Supplement for that? I'm curious what that is.

 

[MAKG1]

I really don't understand what you are saying. You know a bunch of pilots without the basic knowledge to know what the combination of blue line and stared Tower frequency means and to check the Chart Supplement for hours of operation and the associated airspace change?

Or is it that you see something on the chart that indicates airspace changes based on weather conditions and to check the Chart Supplement for that? I'm curious what that is.

Sometimes unscheduled stuff happens. See above.

While it's still technically Class D because the supplement specifies it by time, the procedures may or may not reflect that. It's not at all clear what ATC unit is in charge when Tower doesn't answer. In the case I had, neither neighboring towers, nor Approach had any idea there was a problem. Given that Approach had been handing out IFR clearances directly rather than from Tower, they really should have been aware, but they weren't.

ATIS said Tower would open at 7AM. It was 7:30.

Weather doesn't directly affect this to my knowledge, though a power outage due to weather might, I suppose. That wasn't the case at hand; weather was fine VFR with still air.

 

[tsts4]

Ask your friend to provide you the written references that back his position.

 

[FlyingJ]

Ask your friend to provide you the written references that back his position.

That is pretty much where it stands now.

 

[roncachamp]

If you want to really probe them, ask what happens if you contact Tower during effective hours, and no one answers.

In that event you have Class D airspace without an operating control tower.

 

[MAKG1]

In that event you have Class D airspace without an operating control tower.

Yup, but 91.129 still requires communication with "the ATC facility having jurisdiction." That's still the tower, based on the chart supplement, and the fact that none of the other facilities had a clue what was going on.

IMO, it's a lost comms scenario. But 91.129 doesn't consider the situation where the tower's radio fails. Only the aircraft radio (which was fine).

We all treated it as though it were before 7AM while keeping an eye on the tower, and there was no safety issue whatsoever. But the regs don't seem to cover it, at least VFR (19.185 just talks about "communications failure," which could cover any radio failure).

 

[NoHeat]

In that event you have Class D airspace without an operating control tower.

There have been some cases with controllers asleep in C and D class towers. For example Washington Reagan in 2011 and last month in Boise. Traffic nevertheless landed, without any contact from the tower, but I don't recall how the pilots got clearance.

 

[Palmpilot]

There have been some cases with controllers asleep in C and D class towers. For example Washington Reagan in 2011 and last month in Boise. Traffic nevertheless landed, without any contact from the tower, but I don't recall how the pilots got clearance.

I could be mistaken, but at the Reagan one, I think I remember reading that the pilots treated the tower frequency as a CTAF.

 

[FlyingJ]

He humbly accepted he was wrong today with the remark that we never stop learning. Does that mean I actually taught someone something?
Not quite sure what finally convinced him, haven't talked yet, just an email. Maybe he called the controllers, or maybe he found this thread.
Thanks for all your replies.

 

[roncachamp]

There have been some cases with controllers asleep in C and D class towers. For example Washington Reagan in 2011 and last month in Boise. Traffic nevertheless landed, without any contact from the tower, but I don't recall how the pilots got clearance.

A landing clearance is required at any airport with an operating control tower. If the tower controllers are asleep does the airport have an operating control tower?

 

[MAKG1]

A landing clearance is required at any airport with an operating control tower. If the tower controllers are asleep does the airport have an operating control tower?

Yes, because it is both scheduled and staffed.

That the staff might be incompetent does not change the fact that it is operating.

 

[roncachamp]

Yes, because it is both scheduled and staffed.

That the staff might be incompetent does not change the fact that it is operating.

They may or may not be incompetent but they are asleep. Please explain how a control tower operates with sleeping controllers.

 

[Palmpilot]

Yes, because it is both scheduled and staffed.

That the staff might be incompetent does not change the fact that it is operating.

I can't buy the idea that the control tower is operating if the staff are asleep.

 

[MAKG1]

I can't buy the idea that the control tower is operating if the staff are asleep.

It's operating because the chart supplement says it is. It's not functional, however. The problem is that there is no way to determine if staff is sleeping ahead of time. There IS (and needs to be) a way to determine if a tower is operating before arrival.

Is a gas station with a sleeping attendant open or closed? Same thing.

 

[Palmpilot]

It's operating because the chart supplement says it is. It's not functional, however.

That distinction between the two words is not consistent with how they are normally used. If my airplane ceased to be functional, I would not claim that it was operating. Same for a washing machine, or a car. When a component of an aircraft ceases to function, we placard it "INOP."

If the tower were evacuated due to a fire, flood or tornado, would you still claim it was operating?

 

[roncachamp]

It's operating because the chart supplement says it is. It's not functional, however. The problem is that there is no way to determine if staff is sleeping ahead of time. There IS (and needs to be) a way to determine if a tower is operating before arrival.

My thesaurus tells me inoperative and nonfunctional are synonyms.

Is a gas station with a sleeping attendant open or closed? Same thing.

I pay at the pump. A gas station with a sleeping attendant is functional and operational. But I repeat myself.