Do you think night flying should require a sing-off?

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drotto

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drotto
Do you think night flying should require a sign-off?

I had my oral yesterday for my PPL, and yes there were the obvious answering questions part of the exam, but there was also just some talking about flying. After some questions about night flying, the DPE comes out with the opinion that 3 hours of night flight and 10 landings is not enough. He actually thinks that night should be an additional sign-off that comes after your PPL. Do other agree with this?

I have to admit, I kinda do.
 
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drotto said:
I had my oral yesterday for my PPL, and yes there were the obvious answering questions part of the exam, but there was also just some talking about flying. After some questions about night flying, the DPE comes out with the opinion that 3 hours of night flight and 10 landings is not enough. He actually thinks that night should be an additional sing-off that comes after your PPL. Do other agree with this?

I have to admit, I kinda do.
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So, the obvious question, is what song do you plan to sing?
 
I'd fail that requirement in a heartbeat. Can't sing worth a darn. Doesn't matter if it's day or night.
 
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I have departed some airports at night and would have sworn that it required more concentration and skill than some IFR flights I have completed.
 
I had a very conservative primary instructor and we did a lot more than the minimums on almost all phases of flying so, I'm not sure I can give an honest opinion.

What I do know for sure is that the runway is 3' higher at night than it is during the day!

At least for me it is.
 
Re: Do you think night flying should require a sign-off?

We don't need any more regulation. I'd say leave it the way it is and let the pilot decide if he or she is fit.
 
Nope, I don't think night flight needs to be further scrutinized.
 
Re: Do you think night flying should require a sign-off?

If you're going to fly a plane, hopefully you have enough sense to judge your own competence for night flight.

No more regs needed.
 
The fact there is no night limitation on a certificate is a de facto sign off.

Now, if you want to increase the requirements for night training I may be open to that.
The first thing I did after my ppl ride (1985) was to grab my instructor and ask for some more night dual. Mostly what I was lacking was finding the airports in the jungle of city lights.
Now if you wanted to add some stall practice and such, that may also be a worthy idea.
 
Re: Do you think night flying should require a sign-off?

dans2992 said:
If you're going to fly a plane, hopefully you have enough sense to judge your own competence for night flight.

No more regs needed.
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+1 Amen
 
What does the data say? Doesn't make sense to change the rules if there is no underlying safety data to support increased training.
 
I do.
I wasn't ready for night flying after the min PPL requirements.

Depending on your location, night is bordering on instrument conditions.
The min for the PPL requirement is low IMO
 
After flying with my CFI to KLOL.... Lovelock, NV on a moonless night I said to him that I thought 3 hours were nowhere near enough. It is Dark out there.... No lights at all except for the runway, and obviously no horizon. Plus there are mountains all over the place. People from Nevada and Wyoming will understand... people from New York probably won't.

Not too far away, Austin, NV is considered to be one of the darkest skies in the the world... Dark enough that on a cloudy night outside of town (population 200) you can't see your hand in front of your face. The only place I have been that compares is in the middle of nowhere in Sudan.

Yep it should require more time.
 
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Depends on where you are. Up here in Chicago, night is no big deal because of tons of lights for 100 miles around. I was flying down in Miami a few months ago and when departure vectored me over the Everglades at night it was totally 100% IFR conditions. Pitch black.

Just depends.
 
I didn't have a problem flying over WV at night, or the eastern KY coalfields, or the mountain of NC, as a newly-fledged pilot. Study the sectional, the few lights down there look just like the yellow splotches on the sectional, and stay higher than the big numbers.

If you're uncomfortable, get more training, but don't make ME do what YOU want. Or we can put the shoe on the other foot and require all new pilots to make a monthly night VFR cross country trip.

Daytime is easier cause you can see better, but after that first dual XC at nig, I've never had a problem. Day, night, I don't care now and never have. Winds, weather, turbulence, static and chatter on the radio are often reduced at night, because so many people are uncomfortable at night. Do you drive at night? Why not fly? The concerns are still weather, visibility and pre-flight planning, but with slightly higher minimums at night.
 
I remember this discussion with my PPL instructor. He said that the minimums that we would log are just enough to get signed off...but in reality any amount of night flying would probably require more CFI time to be proficient and safe. Well, I took right to it and actually find myself landing BETTER at night and now do fly a lot of night ops.

So my answer is...it depends on the pilot. Should it require a sign off...probably not as there are a LOT of things that a newly minted PPL is NOT proficient at right outta the gate and hopefully the process of personal minimums and go/no go decision making has been instilled in the pilot to judge their own abilities and comfort more than a single technique sign off.
 
Depends on the night and the area, one size doesn't fit all..

Most of the "Night flying" that I see around here involves a well lit metro area after the return from a dinner, and a easy landing at a towered airport..
 
ahkahn said:
Depends on where you are. Up here in Chicago, night is no big deal because of tons of lights for 100 miles around. I was flying down in Miami a few months ago and when departure vectored me over the Everglades at night it was totally 100% IFR conditions. Pitch black.

Just depends.
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But, when one gets a ppl they are not limited to "night only over Chicago". The new pilot will be authorized to fly over the Everglades as well.
 
Sing-off: I would have passed that with flying colors, bring it on.
Sign-off: No...
 
I said it before, and I'll say it again... When your instructor endorses your log book and sends you for your check ride (without a night limitation), that is a de facto sign off.
 
Kritchlow said:
I said it before, and I'll say it again... When your instructor endorses your log book and sends you for your check ride (without a night limitation), that is a de facto sign off.
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It is but the question is about if we should have a system that is similar to the Canadian requirements.

I think we all understand that having your PPL is the same as a sign off.
 
Re: Do you think night flying should require a sign-off?

drotto said:
I had my oral yesterday for my PPL, and yes there were the obvious answering questions part of the exam, but there was also just some talking about flying. After some questions about night flying, the DPE comes out with the opinion that 3 hours of night flight and 10 landings is not enough. He actually thinks that night should be an additional sign-off that comes after your PPL. Do other agree with this?

I have to admit, I kinda do.
Click to expand...

It does have a sign off. You got it from the DPE, originally on a piece of pink paper.

If you're a pilot and you can't judge whether or not you can fly I. Certain conditions, there's a different problem.
 
Re: Do you think night flying should require a sign-off?

I always hold sing-offs in the cockpit. I'm a good singer.
 
Re: Do you think night flying should require a sign-off?

My instrument rating comes in handy at night,
Even if I can't pick out the runway from ground clutter, flying an approach gets me close enough and in correct position till I do.
Easy to accidently fly into a cloud

I wonder what % of accidents are at night?
I could agree added to the 3 hr hood work requirement, or adding a solo night x-country would be a good idea too.
 
I totally agree with that, the minimum requirement is definetly not enough
 
Your PPL is a license to learn. All through your training you are taught that, so the system works. Fly with instructor for reinforcement. Oh yeah, a big moon helps.
 
Kritchlow said:
But, when one gets a ppl they are not limited to "night only over Chicago". The new pilot will be authorized to fly over the Everglades as well.
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So how is that guy from Chicago going to get a sign-off that's worthwhile? Long cross-country to either the Everglades, the Mojave Desert, or Martha's Vinyard?

The Canadian requirements certainly don't require addressing that, either.
 
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Al P said:
Your PPL is a license to learn. All through your training you are taught that, so the system works. Fly with instructor for reinforcement. Oh yeah, a big moon helps.
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If paying for more instruction, you might as well start your instrument training.
If uncomfortable at night, kill 2 birds with 1 stone, do your instrument training at night.
 
I momentarily read the headline as "sing-off" and was briefly picturing pilots in the pattern belting out tunes on the CTAF. Time for that morning coffee...
 
Well, I'm going against the crowd here.
Statistically we know that night VFR flight is an extreme risk compared to day VFR flight.
So, on balance I am for having an additional 2 or 3 hours of dual at night before a non IFR certified pilot being signed off for night VFR flight.
Here in Michigan we lose a pilot and passengers now and then at certain airports on the shoreline where within seconds of lifting off the last lights pass under you and you are looking out at a 100 miles of unlighted lake with no horizon and the water being a mirror of the sky. Some don't make it.
 
MauleSkinner said:
So how is that guy from Chicago going to get a sign-off that's worthwhile? Long cross-country to either the Everglades, the Mojave Desert, or Martha's Vinyard?

The Canadian requirements certainly don't require addressing that, either.
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Lol!! No.. You're misinterpreting my post. That was in response to someone else's "it depends". I was pointing out that the FAA does not differentiate between a full moon night over a clear major city, and the mother of all pitch black holes.
My point is an authorization from your CFI that you are qualified for the ppl is in and of itself a sign off.
 
Are planes falling out of the sky at night more these days? Have I missed something?

BTW, you do not want me to be in a sing-off. :)
 
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