Do speed mods = increased fuel economy?

AggieMike88

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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
From early on in my interest in aviating myself, I saw and learned about the mods like Knots-2-U and LoPresti

I know these add some speed to the top end. But does addition of these items also improve the fuel economy for flights that are shorter hops (less than 100nm) and training?
 
From everything I have read, the speed mods will let you go faster using the same fuel, or you can throttle back to your old speed and use less fuel than you used to.
 
I would say speed mods are the biggest waste of money in aviation, except for one and that is buying a faster plane.

To answer your question 'yes' enough to notice 'no'.
 
Speed mods effect performance so much that they must replace all the performance data in the airplane flight manual. Oh wait, they don't, meaning the effect is negligible.
 
From early on in my interest in aviating myself, I saw and learned about the mods like Knots-2-U and LoPresti

I know these add some speed to the top end. But does addition of these items also improve the fuel economy for flights that are shorter hops (less than 100nm) and training?

For training, they have no advantage.
 
Maybe, depending on which product you buy, whether your plane happened to be one of "the fast ones" already (well-rigged, slick, good engine and prop, etc.) and which day you measure the speed.

The FAA criteria for such smoke and mirror products is that the addition of the device doesn't cause a material adverse change in performance, so comfort can't be found in the paperwork.

If/when it actually occurs, the reported cost/nm estimates seem to be ~$1,000/kt.
 
They do, but only rarely are they worth it cost wise. My flap gap seals took 160 odd hours to pay for themselves, and I didn't pay to install them. Had I needed to shell out several times the purchase price to get them installed, you do the math.

Now some of the other mods, like improved wheel pants, well if you need to buy a new set anyway why not get the best you can?
 
FYI; not planning to purchase them myself and install.

But several of the Cherokee's we're eyeballing have some of the popular mods.
 
I would say speed mods are the biggest waste of money in aviation, except for one and that is buying a faster plane.

To answer your question 'yes' enough to notice 'no'.
Best advice ever.
 
FYI; not planning to purchase them myself and install.

But several of the Cherokee's we're eyeballing have some of the popular mods.

You buy and sell cars. The answer is the same, as far as effect on price.

What does the hottest Magnaflow exhaust and a speed chip do to the value of a used car? What about the K&N sticker on the fender?
 
The two best speed mods for door to door times are as follows:

1. Extended fuel tanks. Skipping a fuel stop can save you 30 minutes on a trip. This can add 30-50mph to the average speed.

2. STOL capacity. Maybe not a factor with most singles but was a big time saver for me in choosing between a Baron 58 and Piper Aztec. I fly to a number of islands with 2800 foot strips.... well within the Aztec's accelerated stop distance distance but having the Baron in the fence line (or trusting bravado on the Beech Board that a newbie twin pilot could deal with this). With the Baron I was taking a ferry over from the mainland.
 
The two best speed mods for door to door times are as follows:

1. Extended fuel tanks. Skipping a fuel stop can save you 30 minutes on a trip. This can add 30-50mph to the average speed.

2. STOL capacity. Maybe not a factor with most singles but was a big time saver for me in choosing between a Baron 58 and Piper Aztec. I fly to a number of islands with 2800 foot strips.... well within the Aztec's accelerated stop distance distance but having the Baron in the fence line (or trusting bravado on the Beech Board that a newbie twin pilot could deal with this). With the Baron I was taking a ferry over from the mainland.


Most folks don't fly long enough legs to utilize what they have but I certainly agree with #1.
 
Most mods are a lot of money for a few knots,takes a long time to realize any savings.On the other hand if someone has already done all the mods to an airplane it could be a good deal for the next buyer.
 
FYI; not planning to purchase them myself and install.

But several of the Cherokee's we're eyeballing have some of the popular mods.

They're not a negative to have like some car mods. Wheel pants on the Cherokee are about the best speed mod I know of for it. They would be desireable IMHO except for making it a PITA to access the tires and useless if they're on the hangar shelf because there's 3" of snow on the runway. If the current owner was the one who installed them, it might be a good clue that he wasn't skimping since those puppies are $5-7K for a full set. Metco tips are nice, gap seals, VGs etc.. I'd take em. I found that a seller has a hard time forgetting the checks he wrote for all the mods when it comes time to sell. The best mod on the cherokee is the HP boost to 160 if you're in a 150HP model. Might not gain you any speed but it time not climbing is time in cruise. I certianly wouldn't buy any of them to save fuel.
 
I have ZERO real world experience, but for what it's worth I've researched this extensively as I'm the type that LOVES to spend money on going fast and improving whatever it is I'm "driving", and came to the conclusion that the ONLY mod I'd spend money on was the wingtips that added landing/taxi lighting. Speed was the secondary benefit to those and I'm really only paying for the redundant lighting. I may change my mind and simply do LED on the one light so I don't feel the need for redundancy though.
 
Trick is to be smart about it, don't just trust the vendor's claims

Some things, like these
http://www.knots2u.net/cessna-flap-gap-seal-kit-cessna-170-thru-210-models-cfgs/
actually work, but even just the parts cost takes a long time to recoup if you only gained ~2% in speed, add in install and painting costs and cost/benefit goes sideways fast.

Some, like this
http://www.knots2u.net/modified-nose-gear-fairing-5-00-x-5-tire-cngf/
are going to have a hard time paying off but, if like me, you have a damaged pant anyway to replace it can be cheap by comparison to factory new parts.

It also depends on the particulars of your plane, my 182 has fairly good wheel pants, but the 60-70s were mediocre at best, so the owner of one of that vintage would get more out of upgraded pants than I would.


Now if you can get a LoPresti cowl, those can really help but are far from cheap.
 
And some of those mods are going to add time to an annual inspection and the shop is not likely to write off that extra time. One customer had a LoPresti cowling that was a who** to remove and reinstall. We charged him for that.
 
And some of those mods are going to add time to an annual inspection and the shop is not likely to write off that extra time. One customer had a LoPresti cowling that was a who** to remove and reinstall. We charged him for that.

Lance?

Did a pre buy on one (rejected the plane for numerous reasons) and boy howdy! You would have to save a hell of a lot of fuel to make up for the extra time involved with that cowl at every annual.

Contrast that with the ones on our Seneca that are a breeze.
 
Do you know if those hoerner style tips are any better/worse than the knots2you versions with the lights?

I could be convinced to do the hoerners and just do LED landing light probably :)
 
Do you know if those hoerner style tips are any better/worse than the knots2you versions with the lights?

I could be convinced to do the hoerners and just do LED landing light probably :)

I would imagine any difference would be minor, you will obviously pay a weight penalty with the lights however.
 
I've been trying to figure out how to remove the tip tanks on the 310. Since they're the mains, that would require converting it to a glider.
 
Cool, so we can ditch those drag inducing engines too! That should really make it scream!
 
They're not a negative to have like some car mods. Wheel pants on the Cherokee are about the best speed mod I know of for it. They would be desireable IMHO except for making it a PITA to access the tires and useless if they're on the hangar shelf because there's 3" of snow on the runway. If the current owner was the one who installed them, it might be a good clue that he wasn't skimping since those puppies are $5-7K for a full set. Metco tips are nice, gap seals, VGs etc.. I'd take em. I found that a seller has a hard time forgetting the checks he wrote for all the mods when it comes time to sell. The best mod on the cherokee is the HP boost to 160 if you're in a 150HP model. Might not gain you any speed but it time not climbing is time in cruise. I certianly wouldn't buy any of them to save fuel.

Have you been looking over my shoulder? You've pretty much described the items on the Cherokee we're likely to buy. (Metco tips, 160hp, VG's, pants)
 
Have you been looking over my shoulder? You've pretty much described the items on the Cherokee we're likely to buy. (Metco tips, 160hp, VG's, pants)

Nah, that's just the typical offenders. Art Mattson recently passed away suddenly (cancer sucks) but he seemed to be the guy who understood the cherokee airframe and claims some impressive numbers on a 140. see www.pipermods.com he was a good guy who'd talk to you on the phone about mods. There's a couple of guys into modding cherokees on piperforum.com one is an engineer who understands flight concepts well and is very versed on the aerodynamics of the Cherokee and has some homebrewed mods of his own. A Cherokee might get the best bang for it's buck out of mods.There's certianly a lot of room for improvement on them. The early ones even more so. If a reasonably priced cowl had become available for my B model, I might have bought one. That thing probably cost 10 knots over a better designed one. Art had one plus an exhaust designed that wish had come to market. K&N's HP claims spawned an epic thread on the old forums. Powerflow, the jury's still out on IMHO but nothing could be worse than the piper exhaust system except the earlier model piper exhaust system.
 
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Do you know if those hoerner style tips are any better/worse than the knots2you versions with the lights?

I could be convinced to do the hoerners and just do LED landing light probably :)
This.

With Cherokees, Hoerner tips and aeileron gap seals do have a significant impact on slow speed handling and rate of climb, marginal in speed. They are worth it for the handling improvement.

Get the LED landing light (I did). you're not running wires out to the tips, you have less expensive choices in wingtips, and it's a dead-simple drop in replacement.

My understanding is the biggest speed mods on a Cherokee are:
1 - The pants
2 - Removing the giant rotating beacon and putting on strobes

Otherwise, stay light, and get your CG as aft as possible.
 
If the powerflow actually saves fuel as it advertises, that's a pretty worthwhile modification to me. Pricey, but theoretically pays for itself in 500 hours (roughly) if you don't use the extra speed.
 
Have you been looking over my shoulder? You've pretty much described the items on the Cherokee we're likely to buy. (Metco tips, 160hp, VG's, pants)

You get a mogas stc for just paying for the paperwork on a low compression engine but if you get the 160hp or 180hp now there is about $2200 worth of plumbing to get the STC. So for me, I would not be interested in the 160hp mod at all.

Either get the 180hp or 150hp and when you need a new exhaust get the powerflow.
 
Either get the 180hp or 150hp and when you need a new exhaust get the powerflow.

+1 on the powerflow. Know that in Cherokee 180s below serial number ~4000, there is no powerflow available. There wasn't enough performance increase available to be worth certification.
 
Wheel pants on the Cherokee are about the best speed mod I know of for it.

Very true, this. Wheel pants on/off my old Cherokee 140 was good for about 8 MPH difference. BTW, my wheelpants were made by Van's Aircraft in 1973 and STC'ed for the PA28. They were very much like the stock Pipers, but shaped just a little differently on the aft ends. When I met Van in person at Oshkosh 2012, I mentioned these wheelpants to him, and the fact that the original sales receipt for them was still with the old Cherokee's logbooks, he smiled and laughed and said that he made those wheelpants personally himself, and that maybe someday someone would consider them a collector's item!

Metco tips are nice, gap seals, VGs etc.. I'd take em. I found that a seller has a hard time forgetting the checks he wrote for all the mods when it comes time to sell. The best mod on the cherokee is the HP boost to 160 if you're in a 150HP model. Might not gain you any speed but it time not climbing is time in cruise. I certianly wouldn't buy any of them to save fuel.

Metco tips really do work well. I don't know about other brands of Hoerner-style wingtips, but Metco's are solidly constructed and cost less than K2U's and LoPresti's renditions. I had Metco's on my old Cherokee 140 and they made a very noticeable difference in handling over the stock round Piper tips.

All that gap seals do is give you a bit crisper control authority, they don't do much of nothing really for speed.

One other speed mod that does work (2 MPH, maybe 3 if you're lucky) and is fairly cheap, is the nosegear scissors fairing from LFS. I had one installed on my old Cherokee 140 and it did work... but it made my nice collapseable tow bar with spring clamps unusable and I go back to the original plain "2-fingered" tow bar. It also made doing any preventive maintenance on the nose gear a royal pain since you had to remove it first. It looked cool on the plane though, but if faced with the choice again, I'd skip it.

Also, if you have a 150/160 hp Cherokee with the single big cannister muffler behind the engine up against the firewall with single narrow tailpipe pointing downwards out of the right lower side of the muffler, the Powerflow exhaust system really will give you back a lot of power that is being robbed by the restrictive factory exhaust, but man those PFS exhaust systems are breathtakingly expensive. If you have the later style exhaust, like a Warrior, or the Cherokee 180, then the stock exhaust already works about as good as you can get.

Lastly, a good slick paintjob and making sure your flaps and ailerons are rigged correctly will help. When my old Cherokee 140 was stripped of its stucco-finish-like orange and white 33-yr old checkerboard paint and repainted with AcryGlo polyurethane, that was good for 5 MPH and re-rigging the ailerons and flaps to book specs using a tool described on Art Mattson's website was good for another 3 MPH.


I would say speed mods are the biggest waste of money in aviation, except for one and that is buying a faster plane.

Absolutely. Look what I'm flying now. :D :lol::yes:
 
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Have you been looking over my shoulder? You've pretty much described the items on the Cherokee we're likely to buy. (Metco tips, 160hp, VG's, pants)

VGs on a hershey bar Cherokee wing do 2 things.

1) diddly
and
2) squat

I take that back... they're great for one thing: cutting your hands open when you wash the top side of the wings :devil:
 
You get a mogas stc for just paying for the paperwork on a low compression engine but if you get the 160hp or 180hp now there is about $2200 worth of plumbing to get the STC. So for me, I would not be interested in the 160hp mod at all.

Either get the 180hp or 150hp and when you need a new exhaust get the powerflow.

Engine is an Pierce Conversion O320-E3D.

We are interested in doing Mogas once we get a few supply and logistic details worked out.
 
VGs on a hershey bar Cherokee wing do 2 things.

1) diddly
and
2) squat

I take that back... they're great for one thing: cutting your hands open when you wash the top side of the wings :devil:

This is an "E" model, so I think it's a tapered wing.

But I agree with the comment on the Hershey bar wing.
 
By the way Neal... I still think the paint job you had on your Cherokee way back when was one of the coolest ones out there :D :yes: :D
 
This is an "E" model, so I think it's a tapered wing.

All models known as "Cherokees" had hershey wings. The taper wings were on 1974 and later Warriors (150 and 160 hp) with stretched fuselages and three windows down each side. On 180 models, the taper wing came about with the Archer-II name change in 1975 and was called a PA28-181. The 180E model (1971-72?), I believe was still a hershey wing with the original 30' wingspan.
 
Cool, so we can ditch those drag inducing engines too! That should really make it scream!

That'd work great. Just attach a couple of CJ610s. Oh wait, fuel...
 
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