Do something or wait for the smoking hole

brien23

brien23

Pattern Altitude
Joined
May 31, 2005
Messages
1,624
Location
Oak Harbor
Display Name
Brien
Home Airfield
76S
I go by the fly and let fly, if someone does something stupid flying I just let it go rather than get into it. Local airport guy likes to takeoff lift off go into a 45 to 60 degree bank to the left then to the right. Accelerate about 20 feet over the ground pull up over the hangar about 50 feet not sure as most of us are just trying to get out of his way. I am sure he thinks it is well within his ability and it's fun too. I know others have expressed their view to him about this. Should this be something that I believe others have taken care of and just wait for the smoking hole.
 
If the smoking hole were to contain only his remains, that's one thing. What he's doing seems like it has the potential to create a smoking hole with multiple remains.
 
At what point do you say something. I am sure everyone has listened to some local pilot expert chastising some other pilot on the radio for some small thing. When is it right to speak up and say something.
 
Pilawt said:
Smartphones make nice videos. Seattle FSDO e-mail contact is here.

Just sayin'.
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Or mind your business, and if it's that bad talk to him?




To me, it sounds like he isn't hurting anyone, and he obviously is capabible of the maneuvers as he's been doing them long enough, I'd say worry about your own flying.







I should make little snitch video for the FSDO for every weekend Cirrus, Bo and 172 driver who floats down half the runway, at least the dude in question seems to be able to handle his aircraft.

People who cry to the government about everything :loco:
 
As long as your not in the smoking hole,not to worry. Fly and let fly.
 
James331 said:
To me, it sounds like he isn't hurting anyone, and he obviously is capabible of the maneuvers as he's been doing them long enough, I'd say worry about your own flying?
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Read some of Tony Kern's books...they're loaded with people who had been doing their maneuvers long enough to be capable by the time they died doing them.
 
At what point do I become my brother's keeper? If I dropped a dime on everyone I ever saw doing something stupid I'd not only be out of dimes but I'd not have changed a thing.
 
Even if the pilot is infallible, his engine certainly is not. Through no loss of skill, a loss of power may bring him and the hangar to untimely ends.

I'd initially have a quiet and respectful word with him on that basis.
 
I have seen a few of those guys at our local airports too.

To report or not to report? Pesky conundrum.

And like you mentioned, surely somebody else must have reported his crazy and dangerous behavior, right? It is the cellphone syndrome where everybody thinks "somebody else must have called it in" and nobody does. :)

Now let's see how many pages it will take for the personal attacks to start. We are very close, folks! :)
:popcorn:
 
91.303

the pilot of the aircraft in question i am assuming is a grown person and is therefore consciously choosing to violate

if the person gets reported then they fully deserve the consequences of their actions

i'm not generally a by the book doom and gloom kind of guy but for aerobatic flight this person is needlessly and recklessly putting unwilling participants into a potentially harmful situation, harmful enough and has happened enough that the FAA felt the need to write rules specifically for this situation
 
steingar said:
At what point do I become my brother's keeper?
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When it puts unwilling participants at unnecessary risk might be a good place to draw a line...


If I dropped a dime on everyone I ever saw doing something stupid I'd not only be out of dimes but I'd not have changed a thing.
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stupid does not necessarily equal blatant violation of regs and safety....
 
Personally, if I saw some guy buzzing, literally 50 feet over my hangar, especially knowing the history out there, I'd be PO'd big time. I probably wouldn't hesitate to give the guy a piece of my mind.

As far as calling the "gub'ment", that's just piling more horsemanure on an already steaming pile of crap.
 
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Matthew said:
If the smoking hole were to contain only his remains, that's one thing. What he's doing seems like it has the potential to create a smoking hole with multiple remains.
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This.
 
Hmmm. I guess it would depend on what regulations he's breaking. Is there a NOTAM or other regulatory statement at the airport in question that prohibits 45-degree banks after departing the runway? What about minimum distance over obstacles? Sure, it probably falls outside of what most would consider to be reasonable and prudent due it being so non-standard, but is it expressly prohibited?

If he has been spoken to about his actions and still continues, maybe threatening with FAA enforcement complete with video evidence would be enough for him to straighten up and flight right? I'm not an advocate of getting the gov't boys involved, especially when nothing egregious has occurred, but sometimes the threat of FAA intervention can serve the same purpose. Sort of like a "cease and desist" on legal letterhead.
 
I know who Brian is referring to, any conversation with him would be a waste of time and effort. Plus being laughed at and scorned for not minding your own business.
Anything he would hit, (on the airport) would only be considered a clean up effort, for the airport owner, and reason to collect the insurance and run.
 
brien23 said:
I go by the fly and let fly, if someone does something stupid flying I just let it go rather than get into it. Local airport guy likes to takeoff lift off go into a 45 to 60 degree bank to the left then to the right. Accelerate about 20 feet over the ground pull up over the hangar about 50 feet not sure as most of us are just trying to get out of his way. I am sure he thinks it is well within his ability and it's fun too. I know others have expressed their view to him about this. Should this be something that I believe others have taken care of and just wait for the smoking hole.
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Quit picking on Kirby Chambliss. Sheesh. ;)
 
brien23 said:
At what point do you say something. I am sure everyone has listened to some local pilot expert chastising some other pilot on the radio for some small thing. When is it right to speak up and say something.
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About two hours ago, center was chewing out a guy but fell short of the Copy Number transmission. This numb nuts decided to amend his own IFR clearance on the fly and they change headings about 60 degrees.

Center was like, Bro, you are way off course. He was like, no we are going to this spot now, they have a better restaurant. Center goes WTF, over. You can't do that. You need to clear that with me first. Dude was like, uh, yea, OK. Can we go here now instead of there? We already have it programmed in the GPS and stuff. Center says stand by.......I was waiting for it...... I so wanted to hear it.....damn...didn't happen.

Center says, ok you are cleared direct this fix, then direct to your biscuits and gravy stop as requested. Next time don't do that again.

Can't fix stooopid....not even with an Instrument rating.
 
James331 said:
I should make little snitch video for the FSDO for every weekend Cirrus, Bo and 172 driver who floats down half the runway, at least the dude in question seems to be able to handle his aircraft.

People who cry to the government about everything :loco:
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Snitch away. It isn't illegal to float down the runway, nor is it dangerous.

It IS illegal to fly 50' over people and buildings. And someone has pointed out 91.303, which is central to an interesting case from about 10 years ago - http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1164943.html. Then there is always 91.13.

Bottom line I think - unless the aircraft requires this kind of maneuver for operation, it's probably unsafe and illegal.
 
My CFI told me you NEVER report a pilot for ANYTHING. He said it's always the pilot who does the reporting who ends up getting scrutinized.
 
Can a youtube video be posted anonymously? Maybe things aren't what they appear.
 
bflynn said:
Snitch away. It isn't illegal to float down the runway, nor is it dangerous.

It IS illegal to fly 50' over people and buildings. And someone has pointed out 91.303, which is central to an interesting case from about 10 years ago - http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1164943.html. Then there is always 91.13.

Bottom line I think - unless the aircraft requires this kind of maneuver for operation, it's probably unsafe and illegal.
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Exactly, but it can be argued as to what constitutes "aerobatic flight" (91.303) as well as whether the pilot's actions are careless and reckless (91.13). I thought the obstacle clearance altitudes were only applicable to flight phases not including takeoff/landing?

Not defending the guy in any way, just looking at it from the actual regulation violation point of view. I doubt his procedure is necessary in any case.
 
steingar said:
At what point do I become my brother's keeper? If I dropped a dime on everyone I ever saw doing something stupid I'd not only be out of dimes but I'd not have changed a thing.
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Are you talking one-time stunts or something frequently recurring?

The latter encourages letting the dime loose; the former, keeping it in your pocket
 
MotoFlier said:
My CFI told me you NEVER report a pilot for ANYTHING. He said it's always the pilot who does the reporting who ends up getting scrutinized.
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Not true. I reported a guy for similar behavior a year or two ago. No scrutiny of me.
 
Unit74 said:
About two hours ago, center was chewing out a guy but fell short of the Copy Number transmission. This numb nuts decided to amend his own IFR clearance on the fly and they change headings about 60 degrees.

Center was like, Bro, you are way off course. He was like, no we are going to this spot now, they have a better restaurant. Center goes WTF, over. You can't do that. You need to clear that with me first. Dude was like, uh, yea, OK. Can we go here now instead of there? We already have it programmed in the GPS and stuff. Center says stand by.......I was waiting for it...... I so wanted to hear it.....damn...didn't happen.

Center says, ok you are cleared direct this fix, then direct to your biscuits and gravy stop as requested. Next time don't do that again.

Can't fix stooopid....not even with an Instrument rating.
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And on the other hand, a pilot I was flying with recently forgot to terminate flight following when he landed for fuel. He got the number from Center when he took off again and requested flight following.

I was floored. That's not against regs. It's certainly rude, and he felt real bad about it, especially as we'd just left a TFR (with clearance). I question the wisdom of giving him the number at that time, as it clearly distracted him and I had to warn him away from terrain (and the TFR -- we were not cleared that time) while he was heads down writing down the damn number. If they really had to do that, they should have contacted the tower where we landed.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Exactly, but it can be argued as to what constitutes "aerobatic flight" (91.303) as well as whether the pilot's actions are careless and reckless (91.13). I thought the obstacle clearance altitudes were only applicable to flight phases not including takeoff/landing?

Not defending the guy in any way, just looking at it from the actual regulation violation point of view. I doubt his procedure is necessary in any case.
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Normal and necessary are the point. Acrobatic flight is defined in 91.303 and supported by previous cases as abrupt maneuvers unnecessary for normal flight.

I linked a case where it was claimed to be necessary to bank left, then right in that type of aircraft, witnesses testified to that effect and the ALJ agreed. But if you're in an RV or Pitts or something similar...you'd have a hard time making the claim that a hard 45-left/45-right wig wag is a necessary and normal part of operations. Therefore it's acrobatic and a violation.

Now since we don't know the type of airplane the pilot was flying, we can't really say. But maybe it should be asked.
 
What I would like to do: Use my Sawzall on the underside of his wing spar, about 40% through should do it.

What I would actually do: Swear at him often, and post a thread about it online.

What I should do: Have a private chat with him, and about half of the pilots based there. However, given that Tom has said this is a waste of breath, that's good enough for me to scotch that idea.

What I would not do: Call/write and report him.
 
MotoFlier said:
My CFI told me you NEVER report a pilot for ANYTHING. He said it's always the pilot who does the reporting who ends up getting scrutinized.
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Ted DuPuis said:
Not true. I reported a guy for similar behavior a year or two ago. No scrutiny of me.
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Same here. That's an often reported myth.

To the OP: if you don't feel comfortable repeating it to the FSDO, report it to the airport manager. They may very well have a com to Jezus meeting with him, and they have the ability to kick him off the airport if he doesn't comply.
 
Brad Z said:
Same here. That's an often reported myth.

To the OP: if you don't feel comfortable repeating it to the FSDO, report it to the airport manager. They may very well have a com to Jezus meeting with him, and they have the ability to kick him off the airport if he doesn't comply.
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That's not going to work here. they are good friends.
The pilot in question believes he is the best Commercial pilot his 182 has ever seen.
The FAA is broke and has no money to investigate any thing but a smoking hole. So sending a Video of his take off is simply giving the FSDO entertainment.
What worries me more (and that ain't much) is his antics take his aircraft right thru the DZ for the jump club.
 
Tom-D said:
That's not going to work here. they are good friends.

The pilot in question believes he is the best Commercial pilot his 182 has ever seen.

The FAA is broke and has no money to investigate any thing but a smoking hole. So sending a Video of his take off is simply giving the FSDO entertainment.

What worries me more (and that ain't much) is his antics take his aircraft right thru the DZ for the jump club.
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Most jumpers I've met seem to have, shall we say, little patience for dumb idiots and not much concern for certain social norms.

I'd just let the jump guys know where his hangar is, and where a couple of baseball bats ought to be stored that the padlock was left mysteriously unlocked.

They'll "talk" to him. LOL
 
denverpilot said:
Most jumpers I've met seem to have, shall we say, little patience for dumb idiots and not much concern for certain social norms.

I'd just let the jump guys know where his hangar is, and where a couple of baseball bats ought to be stored that the padlock was left mysteriously unlocked.

They'll "talk" to him. LOL
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Every body around the airport knows who he is, nothing has happened yet, and probably won't.
 
Tom-D said:
Every body around the airport knows who he is, nothing has happened yet, and probably won't.
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Somebody has to be in charge. Sounds like he is the one in charge of this airport.
 
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docmirror said:
What I would like to do: Use my Sawzall on the underside of his wing spar, about 40% through should do it.
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Hmmm? You're worried about him killing himself/someone else, so you'd like to help him kill kimself/someone else? Or did I misunderstand?
 
F01LA said:
Hmmm? You're worried about him killing himself/someone else, so you'd like to help him kill kimself/someone else? Or did I misunderstand?
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I'm not worried about much of anything. I just want to saw his spar partway in half. I really can't make it any clearer. Use Sawzall(this is a slender, handheld saw with a reciprocating blade out the front), to saw spar.

QED
 
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