Do pilots still navigate?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by CharlieD3, Apr 11, 2021.

  1. SkyChaser

    SkyChaser Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I'm weird, but I prefer the whole paper chart and whizwheel deal over the GPS. It's a lot harder to screw it up and forget how to fix it like I did to the GPS on one of my solo xcs. :oops:

    So yes, I'm living proof even some students still learn to fly with paper. Though it's really nice to hit direct to/enter after flying around under the hood until you're pretty messed up directionally. :)
     
  2. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    It was "fun" trying to get home from work the day that happened...
     
  3. idahoflier

    idahoflier Cleared for Takeoff

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    Not for me. I can't remember the last time I bought a chart. I just don't see any need, especially with resources like skyvector.com that's always up to date. I keep my EFB updated so I have all the charts and if GPS died, I could still navigate...
     
  4. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I do believe you have been a victim of ‘buttonolgy’
     
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  5. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    I don’t think that’s weird at all. I do, however, believe that pilots beginning today should learn both and learning paper and E6B first lays a good foundation to launch you into the EFB and GPS world.
     
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  6. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    Sounds as if you believe that it is impossible for electronics to fail. If so, are you willing to bet your life on that?
     
  7. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I'm amazed at the number of vors on the charts that are decommissioned, listed in notams. It is ridiculous and would make it difficult to navigate by vor in an emergency unless you took the time to cross each non functioning vfr off your charts before each flight.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2021
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  8. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    I know my area very well. I also geek out on foreflight and enjoy just panning around the sectional

    I don't carry paper charts
    My E6B is buried in a box of old flying memories
    I file /G
    I still navigate and know how to track a radial

    My last 50 hrs are in airplanes that are steam gauge (but have 430/530 or 650) after about 400 in various glass G1000 and Avidyne birds

    The magenta line on a 430/650 is a joke so I use those in nav mode.. effectively as if they were VOR radials

    I can't imagine any IR pilot who flies at least 100 hrs per year doesn't know how to navigate..
     
  9. idahoflier

    idahoflier Cleared for Takeoff

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    LOL! Being a little dramatic aren't you? I have two iphones (one is used as a backup AI if needed) and an ipad. The odds of all three devices failing is likely to be astronomical. But let's say they all three failed and I have absolutely no clue of my position or which direction I should go, I still have a radio to call for help don't I? When was the last GA fatality due to getting lost?
     
  10. Cykoguy

    Cykoguy Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Millennial checking in. Yes I use the GPS a lot along with my EFB with moving maps. That being said I am a VFR pilot and use it a ton to identify where I am at and what I am looking at out the window. Haven't used a paper chart since completing my private check ride in 2013 and have no plans to use any ever again. I have just as much if not more power quicker on apps on my phone and iPad. Go on and bash me now.
     
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  11. Shawn

    Shawn En-Route

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    Do people go to AAA anymore and get paper street maps?...no, but they are still navigating.
     
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  12. idahoflier

    idahoflier Cleared for Takeoff

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    Dude, you're gonna die! ;-)
     
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  13. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    That’s all well and good. What about a GPS black out? It won’t matter how many gadgets you have. A few old charts for your route within reach could make the difference. It happens.
     
  14. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    Getting lost on the ground has different potential consequences don’t you think?
     
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  15. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

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    Some of us do. Just like with flying, I prefer planning trips on paper and will transfer the trip to the GPS before leaving.

    I was going to mention the same thing though. People are still navigating when they are using the GPS. Some are just more reliant on electronic navigation aids than others. I knew one CFI who couldn't find their way back to the airport once they left the traffic pattern without using the GPS (no joke).
     
  16. Adam Weiss

    Adam Weiss Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Idahoflyer said that if GPS goes out, he’ll lose the moving map capability, but can still use the electronic charts to navigate. I agree. There’s not much need for paper charts anymore.
     
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  17. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    That’s sad. And scary. I had a student that didn’t want to fly with me anymore because I wouldn’t sign him off to solo because he could never find the airport on the way back from the practice area.:dunno:
     
  18. IK04

    IK04 Pattern Altitude

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    I can absolutely find my way home from McDonald's without GPS or a map.

    Baby steps...
     
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  19. idahoflier

    idahoflier Cleared for Takeoff

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    Well, I have my sectional on my ipad. True, I won't have a moving airplane or a magenta line, but it's still the same sectional chart you would have on paper. Worst case I can still dead reckon, but I'm a /A so I'm in a bit better shape...

    I'm not telling you or anyone else not to have a sectional, if it provides you peace of mind, by all means take one. I just don't find them necessary anymore...
     
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  20. CharlieD3

    CharlieD3 Pattern Altitude

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    ... Wanna bet? (NOT DIRECTED AT ANY POST ABOVE)

    Is it required to have a current paper chart aboard?

    Can you cite the regulation?

    Does it apply to you & your aircraft?

    What if you do get lost, and somehow run out of fuel before finding an airport? Could you be cited for not having a chart?

    https://airfactsjournal.com/2019/12/who-needs-charts-under-the-rules-you-probably-dont/

    Note even the title here says "probably."

    I really like all the responses above, lots to think about...

    Charlie, who still thinks E6Bs are cool little gadgets. (But has to read the instructions to remember how to use them)
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  21. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    I won’t bash you. I too want to never use a paper chart again. The difference between you and I, however, is that I believe that there may be an emergency some day where I will be very relieved to have a chart, even an expired one, within reach. Electrical and mechanical things spit up sometimes.

    Someone said that if the panel quit, they would have charts on their pad. Believe it or not, pads fail sometimes too.
     
  22. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    I suppose you can split hairs about whether or not you’re required to have charts onboard, but I wouldn’t want to have that discussion during a ramp check while having no chart covering my route of flight or proposed route of flight. That said, I read a few years ago that charts in electronic forum (EFB) are now acceptable to the FAA in lieu of paper.

    I even read or heard somewhere not long ago that they are planning to stop making paper charts available. I wouldn’t be surprised because they want to save money. They are shutting down our VOR’s to save money. As long as the 7 something 7’s have what they need to navigate, why spend money to support the handful of planes that make up our GA fleet?


    There are certain minimums when flying an approach, but it’s not always wise to fly to those minimums. You are free to add some safety factor and if you are wise you will wait until you are darn proficient before depending on published minimums. It doesn’t hurt to be more conservative at times. With charts, even if there is no longer a law requiring a paper chart, it doesn’t hurt to have paper charts for your route of flight within reach. Even an outdated paper chart could be very useful if all our modern gadgetry were to spit up. Will this ever happen? Probably not, but what’s wrong with having a fall back position in case it does?
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  23. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    ....and I hope that neither of us ever find a paper sectional necessary, but there could be a time when you would really like to have one handy.

    I’m a belt and suspenders kind of guy. Backup systems are the norm for me. Most of my career was in the automation industry. In automation, especially where human safety is involved, redundancy is everything,
     
  24. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    What if an Nuke goes off and the EMP kills all your devices? Yur gunna die!

    Salty, or how I learned to stop worrying and love the bomb.
     
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  25. Matthew Rogers

    Matthew Rogers Line Up and Wait

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    The chances of everything (devices, GPS, and radios) failing on the same day that you are also in a place that in unfamiliar to you, and in a situation where you don’t have enough time to just find a random airport or nearby city with an airport and land is astronomically small. If there is a massive failure, you just land and figure it out, no big deal.

    If it was a big risk, we would already be talking about “that one day where all the planes fell out of the sky”.
     
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  26. scarcherpilot

    scarcherpilot Filing Flight Plan

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    Got my license in a C152 that just had a VOR and ADF back in the late 90's, so i learned DR and Pilotage as a primary navigation method. Didn't get into GPSs equipped planes until mid 2000's. Flying one day using the magenta line, map tucked neatly away in my flight bag since i hadn't planned it the old school way (got lazy with all the new gadgets) and had a complete electrical failure. Lost comms, 430, VORs, everything. Didn't have an ipad back then or a smart phone, so I pulled out the old trusty sectional and found my way old school. Scared me more than i can say and since then, i always do a flight plan with my sectional picking out waypoints, measuring distance, using E6B etc and have map on my lap with flight plan using my watch as a guide for next waypoints. That being said, I still tune in my GNX375, have my ipad and phone up and running and have the magenta line up there, but i dont trust them to always be there after my incident with electrical failure. I tend to be a worst case scenario type of guy anyway, so having those backup sectionals and plan makes me feel more at ease. Plus, i actual enjoy spending time planning out my route and often marvel at how close i can get on timing and waypoints as I am flying. (VFR of course)

    I often laugh when we lose power at our house due to storms or whatever, my tweens panic when their ipads, computers and TV doesnt work (with internet). They walk around like zombies not knowing what to do. We pull out the old yahtzee game or something, light a candle and have old school family fun.
     
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  27. tspear

    tspear En-Route

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    Stop using the vacuum radio powered by a wet vacuum pump and use modern solid state electronics and failure rate will dramatically decrease.
    In reality, there are very limited reasons for modern electronics to fail. Heat, power, and software bug are the three most common. For the first, power off and let it cool off, or lower cabin temp. Second, you have backup sources right? Three, reboot.

    At the end of day, old avionics have actually much higher failure rates than modern solid state ones do. The issue is that the old ones are known, with these new fangled things are scary when they fail because I just spent $$$$ and do not understand why it failed.

    This largely is a known risk verses the unknown. Human nature prefers the known risk even if much higher than the unknown.

    Tim


    Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk
     
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  28. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I have not used an E6B for flight planning or in flight far longer than I've had GPS. I think the last time I used an E6B other than for a checkride or when teaching was 1990.
     
  29. JOhnH

    JOhnH Touchdown! Greaser!

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    We were there just last week, but not to get maps. We were there for the tour guides. Although my IFR rated wife finally succumbed to using the EFB instead of paper charts, she still prefers hard cover books and printed maps and tour guides.

    But as to your point, they told her that AAA will be discontinuing printed tour books soon.
     
  30. N1120A

    N1120A Pattern Altitude

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    The "children of the magenta line" thing is a crock. How dare we keep planes straight in the clouds and save gas using technology available. The comment isn't clever and shows a clear unwillingness to learn.

    That's a pity. You should be comfortable using everything in the flight deck.

    I knew these poorly taking hot takes were coming.
     
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  31. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    If you think that is what is behind the ‘children of the magenta’, then I would challenge you to actually WATCH the video.

    That was not the point Captain Vanderburgh was making.

    It is available online.

     
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  32. N1120A

    N1120A Pattern Altitude

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    I've watched the video. Everyone has watched the video. 1) It's a weasel term. 2) It isn't used to suggest anything other than everyone should continue to be a caveman using their KX80 RNAV...
     
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  33. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    Your inability to understand the point also explains your fandom. Not surprising.
     
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  34. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    I used a CR-5 for flight planning until about 10 years ago, and still have a CR-3 (the “old guy” size) handy in my flight bag. There are still things for which it’s the best tool.
     
  35. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    I still have a metal E6-B, plotter, etc...and I still know how you use them.

    Of course I also like to do mechanical drawings by hand rather than on CAD, even though I'm proficient on CAD.
     
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  36. Dana

    Dana Pattern Altitude

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    When I learned to fly it was dead reckoning, E6B, and VORs. Then strictly IFR (as in I Follow Roads) and paper charts in a NORDO T-Craft. In the windy open cockpits I fly in nowadays, paper charts are problematic which is the only reason I cheat with a GPS. Yeah. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

    But I do occasionally (should more often) leave the electronics (Avare on a tablet and my phone for redundancy) turned off and do short trips with a carefully folded bit of downloaded and printed paper chart.
     
  37. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Then you clearly haven’t watched the video.

    I’ve seen both sides of the argument misuse the term. Both sides apparently don’t have the attention span to get through a 25 minute airline training video.

    Midlifeflyer stated it well in post 12. It’s not about avoiding technology. It’s about using other tools to back up the single source.
     
  38. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    I will also make flights without a waypoint entered, turn the GPS to some page that provides no information except the time and fly IFR(R) (railroads) or IFSL (shoreline)
     
  39. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    He's Jerry Wagner's biggest fan and defendant. That's what you're working with, you're wasting your time.
     
  40. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I may have mentioned before I was a bit of a scofflaw in my younger days.

    I needed to prove I was a student to get a discount on an Icelandic Airways flight to Europe. I wasn’t, so I made my own ID. This was before home computers, so I used the emblem from a Pickett slide rule manual for my fake university.

    [​IMG]

    And it worked!
     
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