Do controllers get tired of Students?

I remember once coming back into KOLM with my son hearing the tower give hold short instructions to a pilot who did not acknowledge the instruction. Tower repeated, no response. The tower repeated the instruction once more and politely, but firmly, reminded the (obviously) student pilot that read back of hold short instructions was mandatory. He also commented that the student was lucky that he was learning this at KOLM as controllers at other airports might not be so forgiving. Yes, we have a fair amount of student traffic and I recall the old airport manager telling me that one of the criteria for their controllers was that they were user friendly. I certainly appreciate that attitude.

Now, do controllers get tired of students? I recall one evening when my CFII and I were shooting multiple approaches into KOLM while I was working on my IR that the SEA approach controller had a distinctly relieved sound in his voice when we told him that the next approach would terminate with a landing, rather than another approach. We had been up for a while. :D
 
is there a time when a controller has absolutely nothing to do? I know there are slow times b/c I've heard them strike up short conversations with pilots, but is there ever a time when you're just staring at a screen with nothing to do?
 
Yes especially the one cranky guy I dealt with when I was a student pilot. He yelled at me one time after I told him that I was a student pilot telling me "I don't care if you are a student pilot". What a jerk.
 
igorek82 said:
What do you guys think about controllers in training? They make mistakes too... we shake our heads and smile and move on ;-) although, i have to admit, i seem to make mistakes more often than they do!
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I've seen a bunch.

I've been cleared to land while on the taxiway. I've been cleared for takeoff with someone between me and the hold short line. I've been told to turn base while on a taxiway. The big one was when a controller unintentionally gave me taxi clearance and then called a possible PD when I taxied (it resolved fairly simply and just how it should have).
 
rbridges said:
is there a time when a controller has absolutely nothing to do? I know there are slow times b/c I've heard them strike up short conversations with pilots, but is there ever a time when you're just staring at a screen with nothing to do?
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Of course. At my brother's facility they're open 24/7. When he works mids, there isn't crap going on. He'll sit around and read a book. Not allowed to use cellphones which I think is a good thing. Years ago when I did ATC we could watch TV or have a radio going when there were no aircraft on freq. I believe that's been done away with as well.

What's weird is, when the traffic load is light, that's when you're most likely to have a "deal." Your guard goes down and you can sometimes get in a false sense of security. One time on approach I was working only two lousy aircraft and one of them had his transponder drop. I was sitting there with my feet kicked up talking to friends and completely forgot I was working him. Pilot reported field in sight almost on top of the field and 7,000 ft! That was a wake up for me to never let my guard down during low traffic and minimize outside distractions. It happens though and through the years controllers have made far worse mistakes during low traffic periods.
 
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rbridges said:
is there a time when a controller has absolutely nothing to do? I know there are slow times b/c I've heard them strike up short conversations with pilots, but is there ever a time when you're just staring at a screen with nothing to do?
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Show up at 7AM on a Saturday morning, just after the tower opens, and very little will be going on on the field.

I did that once while a solo student, to practice landings. Tower rated them….
 
skynewbie said:
Yes especially the one cranky guy I dealt with when I was a student pilot. He yelled at me one time after I told him that I was a student pilot telling me "I don't care if you are a student pilot". What a jerk.
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Who?

I've heard stories about the one Livermore controller, but I never experienced any crankiness anywhere in the local airspace.

The closest I got was a Class B transition where I think NorCal was transmitting on the wrong frequency. Apparently, they were trying to get ahold of me, but I didn't hear them. The radio was fine, as I got suspicious of the silence (that's rare in that airspace), so I asked for a comm check, and it worked fine with no adjustment. I then got told a 747 was restricted below me and I should turn to heading 360 right now. It was certainly urgent, but I wouldn't characterize it as "yelling." I complied promptly.
 
As it has already been pointed out several times, we are all humans and work together on the frequencies to create and maintain a safe environment.
Professionalism is key, for sure.

Visiting your local tower or approach facility is a very good idea to put faces to the voices. And to show the controllers that we are humans too and not all of us are clueless yahoos. :) Many controllers are licensed pilots, actually. I don't have any statistical data to provide more, though.

Blue skies!
Lou
 
Gucci Pilot said:
When the student clearly has no clue what he is doing and freakin derails...I can see how even the most patient controller can get upset.

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wow. that was painful to watch. The student really had no business flying to that airport.
 
I worked 30-years for CAA/FAA in the technical side in towers, flight service stations, three different ARTCC facilities, and RAPCON. I am a private pilot also.

The thing that I find not good in tower communications (comments are re towers only) is that there is a tendency to speak at a machine gun rate. That really makes understanding more difficult, particularly when at an unfamiliar airport where things are different. Fast speech does not make a controller a 'hot shot', it makes him/her less professional in my view. In years in ARTCC I have never heard this rapid fire speech, it seems only at towers. Its done far, far, too often, even when there is no need to rush things. I have encountered this at towered airports when I was the only plane in the area.

I know this rant won't help much, but it needs to be said.
 
MAKG1 said:
...And they know who the student pilots are without being told. They see the same tail numbers all the time.
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Many of us experienced pilots fly those same airplanes. I hope they can tell I have some experience! :D
 
igorek82 said:
I did this twice at KFRG and went to KCDW instead, not as busy and not as many students :wink2: but there are controllers "in training" which sometimes makes student pilot's life not as dull :eek:
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For my visits to Phoenix, I started using GEU instead of DVT when the lines of student pilots waiting to take off at the latter started to get ridiculously long. Never a wait, and I found out later that it's actually more convenient for my relatives who live in the area.
 
evapilotaz said:
Someday I would like to meet the controllers at my Home Base and shake their hand and tell them thanks for all their hard work.
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I went to Chandler tower not long ago. It was a great experience and so cool to watch the teamwork between the controllers. One of them even controlled at my old home base, Rapid City, when my mom was flying! I've also been to Rapid City's tower several times, mostly because I'm friends with a few of the controllers. It's worth it to go up there and put faces to the voices.
 
UND does a lot of training for chinese and middle eastern carriers. The students can be a bit of a challenge at times. I admire the patience the controllers in Grand Forks and Fargo have with the flood of students. But as mentioned earlier, students create 'movements' and 'movements' justify staffing. So if one of the chinese kids needs a bit of extra controller attention, it helps to maintain the traffic volume that keeps it a FAA tower.
 
bobmrg said:
Pay absolutely no attention to the controller's tone of voice. Controllers have a book of phraseology that they MUST follow, while pilots can use whatever phraseology they want to use...we have no such guidance. Suggestions, yes, requirements, no.

Just listen to what a controller says without reading anything into how it is said, and do not hesitate to ask for a repeat or say "I don't understand what you want me to do." That removes the handcuffs from the controller who can then use plain English without risking his/her job.

From their handbook:

"This order prescribes air traffic control procedures and phraseology for use by personnel providing air traffic control services. Controllers are required to be familiar with the provisions of this order that pertain to their operational responsibilities and to exercise their best judgment if they encounter situations not covered by it."

Bob Gardner
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You ought to write a book or something!
 
Palmpilot said:
For my visits to Phoenix, I started using GEU instead of DVT when the lines of student pilots waiting to take off at the latter started to get ridiculously long. Never a wait, and I found out later that it's actually more convenient for my relatives who live in the area.
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I'm in west Texas, but if you ever plan an NHL game at Jobbing.com or NFL game ... that's the field to land. Lineman are lazy there (you're on your own for parking et al), but the counter girl(s) really went out of their way for us.
 
BigBadLou said:
No worries, the controller can tell from your transmissions. :)
As you can tell from Gucci's second YT link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTZcViXWIB4
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There have been times when I have sounded that clueless, but not for that long!

The first time I made an IFR departure from SQL, the departure instructions were far more complex than I had ever gotten before, and what I wrote down when I copied the clearance turned out to be too cryptic once I got in the air. But at least I knew enough not to wander toward SFO's final approach course!

http://skyvector.com/?ll=37.55104846536965,-122.2987293029202&chart=127&zoom=3

The departure controller just asked my heading and put me on the correct one. Very professional, which of course he had to be, because he was also the one handling SFO's final approach traffic. (He wouldn't have had time for a lecture even if he had been so inclined.)

I should have taken the time to make sure that everything I wrote down was clear before calling ready for departure. Oh well, next time!
 
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In a case of the exception proves the rule...

Years ago I was on an instrument training flight with a student into the Tampa area. We were on an IFR flight plan, and put "Request practice approaches" in the remarks field.

When we contacted Approach inbound, we again advised we'd like to do practice approaches.

When we got handed off to the tower, a female controller said, "Cleared for the visual approach, RWYXX". I advised her we wanted to do practice approaches, and with a heavy sigh and obvious frustration in her voice she said, "You know, you might have advised us of that fact ahead of time..." and got us handed back to approach.

In any case, i did not appreciate the attitude and it was the one and only time I called a control facility to complain. I only asked that they review the tapes to see what I meant, and that I did not mean for anyone to get into trouble over it, just that they should be aware.

Anyway, in an entire career of flying, this is really one of the only times I can remember a controller having a real attitude with me. I've had them make numerous mistakes, like transposing RWY13 into 31 (mature onset dyslexia, I call it), but Lord knows I make my share of mistakes as well and so far, no harm no foul on either side!
 
Back when Japan Airlines had their training center at KAPC (Napa), the controllers would get so frustrated with the Japanese students in the pattern doing T&G's in their Bonanzas that sometimes they would just shut down all other traffic from entering the airspace until they could get things sorted out.
 
MAKG1 said:
I've seen a bunch.

I've been cleared to land while on the taxiway. I've been cleared for takeoff with someone between me and the hold short line. I've been told to turn base while on a taxiway. The big one was when a controller unintentionally gave me taxi clearance and then called a possible PD when I taxied (it resolved fairly simply and just how it should have).
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This happened yesterday after I touched down:

Tower: "Cessna three three foxtrot, I'll call your base."

Me: "Cessna three three foxtrot is on the landing rollout."

Tower: Correction, Cessna six charlie sierra, I'll call your base."

[Acknowledgement from six charlie sierra]

Tower: "Cessna three three foxtrot, contact ground, thanks!"
 
Palmpilot said:
The first time I made an IFR departure from SQL, the departure instructions were far more complex than I had ever gotten before, and what I wrote down when I copied the clearance turned out to be too cryptic once I got in the air.
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As a VFR pilot, I'm curious what complexity they threw at you. The DP looks pretty simple -- 30 not authorized, 12 straight out to SJC VOR.
 
Palmpilot said:
This happened yesterday after I touched down:

Tower: "Cessna three three foxtrot, I'll call your base."

Me: "Cessna three three foxtrot is on the landing rollout."

Tower: Correction, Cessna six charlie sierra, I'll call your base."

[Acknowledgement from six charlie sierra]

Tower: "Cessna three three foxtrot, contact ground, thanks!"
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Something similar happened to me. For a moment there I freaked out thinking I landed without a clearance.
 
MAKG1 said:
As a VFR pilot, I'm curious what complexity they threw at you. The DP looks pretty simple -- 30 not authorized, 12 straight out to SJC VOR.
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I doubt that the published DP ever gets used. (I've never heard the one for Palo Alto being used.)

Transcribed later from LiveATC:

"[Tail number], San Carlos Ground, cleared to the Half Moon Bay Airport. On departure, fly runway heading until past the diamond-shaped waterway. Then turn right heading 120. Keep your turn within two miles of the airport, for radar vectors to Woodside, direct Tails, direct. Maintain VFR conditions at or below 1,100 until crossing the Oakland 165 radial. Then climb and maintain 2,100. Expect 5,000 five minutes after departure. Norcal Departure Control frequency 135.65. [Squawk code]."

I think the ceiling was about 1,300. Runway 30 was in use.
 
Best advice I ever heard was keep a smile on your face and keep on flyin!
 
Palmpilot said:
I doubt that the published DP ever gets used. (I've never heard the one for Palo Alto being used.)

Transcribed later from LiveATC:

"[Tail number], San Carlos Ground, cleared to the Half Moon Bay Airport. On departure, fly runway heading until past the diamond-shaped waterway. Then turn right heading 120. Keep your turn within two miles of the airport, for radar vectors to Woodside, direct Tails, direct. Maintain VFR conditions at or below 1,100 until crossing the Oakland 165 radial. Then climb and maintain 2,100. Expect 5,000 five minutes after departure. Norcal Departure Control frequency 135.65. [Squawk code]."

I think the ceiling was about 1,300. Runway 30 was in use.
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Egads. That's a really complex way to describe a VFR right downwind departure from 30 compliant with their noise abatement.

I sure hope you got that 5000 before getting to OSI. It's only about a 5 minute flight from there, and 2100 MSL is around -300 AGL at the VOR. Might be a small problem.

I guess the field was VFR, but there are some tall buildings just off the DER of 30. Yecch.
 
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Palmpilot said:
I doubt that the published DP ever gets used. (I've never heard the one for Palo Alto being used.)

Transcribed later from LiveATC:

"[Tail number], San Carlos Ground, cleared to the Half Moon Bay Airport. On departure, fly runway heading until past the diamond-shaped waterway. Then turn right heading 120. Keep your turn within two miles of the airport, for radar vectors to Woodside, direct Tails, direct. Maintain VFR conditions at or below 1,100 until crossing the Oakland 165 radial. Then climb and maintain 2,100. Expect 5,000 five minutes after departure. Norcal Departure Control frequency 135.65. [Squawk code]."

I think the ceiling was about 1,300. Runway 30 was in use.
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:mad2:. I'm glad the published DP always gets used at FRG. Turn right or left heading XXX, maintain 3000. Easy.
 
My home airport is a training tower. When the controllers get behind we get a male voice that comes on and straightens things out with a quickness, he is a rockstar. I wanted to meet him so I asked ground got a tour when I knew he was up there. He was not what I expected at all, a young man i. His early 20's, shorter then expected and a 6 inch Mohawk. I really don't care what he looks like, I think he is the best controller up there.
 
danhagan said:
I'm in west Texas, but if you ever plan an NHL game at Jobbing.com or NFL game ... that's the field to land. Lineman are lazy there (you're on your own for parking et al), but the counter girl(s) really went out of their way for us.
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Wow, Dan...you never told me you guys had THAT much fun!! :D

Mike
 
If you are a student pilot please say so on initial call-up. That small bit of info goes into the mental formula as to where to you will fit in the overall plan. The pace of instructions will be tampered down and you'll normally receive more attention. We start learning from the basics and have been there in one way or the other.
 
JohnWF said:
I worked 30-years for CAA/FAA in the technical side in towers, flight service stations, three different ARTCC facilities, and RAPCON. I am a private pilot also.

The thing that I find not good in tower communications (comments are re towers only) is that there is a tendency to speak at a machine gun rate. That really makes understanding more difficult, particularly when at an unfamiliar airport where things are different. Fast speech does not make a controller a 'hot shot', it makes him/her less professional in my view. In years in ARTCC I have never heard this rapid fire speech, it seems only at towers. Its done far, far, too often, even when there is no need to rush things. I have encountered this at towered airports when I was the only plane in the area.

I know this rant won't help much, but it needs to be said.
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Very good point. R/T in general in the US is way too fast, as if there's some contest going on. Or they think they sound more pro the faster they speak. It's very easy to fall into that trap as well - one tends to speak faster if the controller sounds rushed or speaks fast. I try to deliberately slow down my R/T. I try to be on point and minimise the amount of words I use, but when I say them I say them at a normal pace.

I can't help but think of John Wayne's comment when they asked him about how to be an onscreen leading man. He said:

"Talk low, talk slow - and never say too much"
 
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So how do controllers keep track of tail numbers with aircraft in their airspace? Do they write them down or are they able to label the targets on their radar screens with tail number electronically. I really need to visit a tower.
 
weilke said:
UND does a lot of training for chinese and middle eastern carriers. The students can be a bit of a challenge at times. I admire the patience the controllers in Grand Forks and Fargo have with the flood of students. But as mentioned earlier, students create 'movements' and 'movements' justify staffing. So if one of the chinese kids needs a bit of extra controller attention, it helps to maintain the traffic volume that keeps it a FAA tower.
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Talked to a tower controller from GFK the other day and he said the Air China students really aren't that bad but before when he worked somewhere else he said British Airways was the worst.

evapilotaz said:
So how do controllers keep track of tail numbers with aircraft in their airspace? Do they write them down or are they able to label the targets on their radar screens with tail number electronically. I really need to visit a tower.
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They have a progress strip that lists the aircrafts tail and type along with route, then on the screen its tail number type ground speed and altitude.
 
evapilotaz said:
So how do controllers keep track of tail numbers with aircraft in their airspace? Do they write them down or are they able to label the targets on their radar screens with tail number electronically. I really need to visit a tower.
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At PAO, they have plastic strips, in one color for VFR and another for IFR, that they write the relevant information down on. They physically hand them between the ground and tower positions.

The radar feed from Moffett has the transponder code, type, and a few other things in it. Some may be blank if not known (e.g., squawking 1200, the type is not known).

Note that many towers do not have radar. PAO doesn't have its own, but it does have a display generated by a neighboring Federal airport. I believe it is required for Class B and C, but not D.

By all means, visit your tower. It will be an eye opener.
 
evapilotaz said:
So how do controllers keep track of tail numbers with aircraft in their airspace? Do they write them down or are they able to label the targets on their radar screens with tail number electronically. I really need to visit a tower.
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I've seen use of strips and scratch paper. And a few controllers I have met have it wired well enough to just use memory.

DTO (Class D) has radar display off of the feed from DFW. If you're on an IFR plan or FF, then your tail# appears as part of your target.
 
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