Do all PPL instructors hold instrument ratings?

azblackbird

azblackbird

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azblackbird
Just some random pondering... forgive me in advance if I'm not using the right wording.

I see in the regs they require a ppl student to have at least 3 hrs. training under the hood. Just wondering if all PPL instructors (or at least the majority) have the ratings to teach instrument, and if so, are they required to have more "current" hours vs. a non-CFI instrument rated pilot?

I guess the reason I ask is that ideally I'd like to find an instructor who can stay with me through my ppl and instrument training. Would prefer someone who flys actual IMC on a somewhat regular basis, or at the very least is adamant about staying proficient in either actual or simulated.
 
No. Instrument training is another certification.

And being instrument rated doesn't mean they ever fly in IMC, or were current six months after their rating.

The instrument rating is so different from private pilot training that it's not obvious you want the same instructor for both.
 
I guess what I'm asking is if a CFI is not a CFII, then how can a CFI legally teach the 3 hours of required instrument for the private?
 
azblackbird said:
Just wondering if all PPL instructors (or at least the majority) have the ratings to teach instrument, and if so, are they required to have more "current" hours vs. a non-CFI instrument rated pilot?

I guess the reason I ask is that ideally I'd like to find an instructor who can stay with me through my ppl and instrument training. Would prefer someone who flys actual IMC on a somewhat regular basis, or at the very least is adamant about staying proficient in either actual or simulated.
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There are many CFIs who do not have instrument ratings on their flight instructor certificate. No, there is no currency requirement for an instructor with an instrument rating on their flight instructor certificate.
 
azblackbird said:
I guess what I'm asking is if a CFI is not a CFII, then how can a CFI legally teach the 3 hours of required instrument for the private?
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It's not "instrument instruction". It's "flight by reference to instruments", or some such terminology.
 
azblackbird said:
Just some random pondering... forgive me in advance if I'm not using the right wording.

I see in the regs they require a ppl student to have at least 3 hrs. training under the hood. Just wondering if all PPL instructors (or at least the majority) have the ratings to teach instrument, and if so, are they required to have more "current" hours vs. a non-CFI instrument rated pilot?

I guess the reason I ask is that ideally I'd like to find an instructor who can stay with me through my ppl and instrument training. Would prefer someone who flys actual IMC on a somewhat regular basis, or at the very least is adamant about staying proficient in either actual or simulated.
Click to expand...

Anyone with a PPL can be a safety pilot for someone flying approaches for currency (under hood). So any CFI can do under hood training for PPL students in the same way. The PPL under hood portion is not instrument training.
 
A CFI can teach what's needed for PPL, including the instrument part of PPL. All CFI's have to have an instrument rating.
 
The CFI themselves have an instrument rating, that's a separate rating from the CFII certificate which allows for the instructor to give instrument training.
 
coloradobluesky said:
A CFI can teach what's needed for PPL, including the instrument part of PPL. All CFI's have to have an instrument rating.
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So basically a CFI with an instrument rating is allowed to instruct on what's required for a PPL, but is not allowed to instruct for an instrument only rating unless a CFII. Am I understanding that correctly?
 
azblackbird said:
So basically a CFI with an instrument rating is allowed to instruct on what's required for a PPL, but is not allowed to instruct for an instrument only rating unless a CFII. Am I understanding that correctly?
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You're confusing the terms a bit. The CFI must hold an instrument rating to qualify for a CFI certificate, this is a separate rating. The Instrument add-on to the CFI certificate, allows for that instructor to give instrument dual instruction.
 
Ryanb said:
You're confusing the terms a bit. The CFI must hold an instrument rating to qualify for a CFI certificate, this is a separate rating. The Instrument add-on to the CFI certificate, allows for that instructor to give instrument dual instruction.
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Yes I understand that. I'm just wondering what the fine line is. If I'm taking instruction under a CFI who is not a CFII, then is any instrument time under a regular CFI able to be logged as time towards an instrument rating?

I guess the bottom line is if I want a ppl followed by an instrument, then I had better be looking for a CFII that can do both if I want to stay with the same instructor. Would that be prudent?
 
During PPL, under hood time is not IR training

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
azblackbird said:
is any instrument time under a regular CFI able to be logged as time towards an instrument rating?
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You can put it toward the 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument flight time required for an instrument rating. You cannot put it toward the 15 hours of instrument training that is required for an instrument rating.
 
azblackbird said:
Yes I understand that. I'm just wondering what the fine line is. If I'm taking instruction under a CFI who is not a CFII, then is any instrument time under a regular CFI able to be logged as time towards an instrument rating?
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What dms said. Doesn't count as dual towards the IR rating, but you can log it as instrument time. It's the same as if you were flying with a safety pilot while you're under the hood.

The CFI is basically just acting as a safety pilot while you're under the hood.
 
dmspilot said:
You can put it toward the 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument flight time required for an instrument rating. You cannot put it toward the 15 hours of instrument training that is required for an instrument rating.
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Got it!
 
This is why I recommend you to train with a CFI-I. The time you spend under the hood will count as dual instrument received and instrument flight time.

Might as well get a little bit out of the way if you plan to earn your IR.
 
Ryanb said:
This is why I recommend you to train with a CFI-I. The time you spend under the hood will count as dual instrument received and instrument flight time. Might as well get a little bit out of the way if you plan to earn your IR.
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Thats the plan.
 
dmspilot said:
No it won't. The 3 hours of flight by reference to instruments required for a private pilot certificate is not instrument training, and cannot be used toward the 15 hours of instrument training required for an instrument rating, even if it is indeed given by a CFII. This is the FAA interpretation.
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Point is, I plan on hiring a CFII for my ppl and instrument. I'm sure he/she will set me straight on what I can legally log and what I can't through my different phases of training. I just wanted to get some clarification/verification on the matter.
 
azblackbird said:
Point is, I plan on hiring a CFII for my ppl and instrument. I'm sure he/she will set me straight on what I can legally log and what I can't through my different phases of training. I just wanted to get some clarification/verification on the matter.
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If they're a CFII, you can log the time towards your IR, that's the whole purpose of that rating. Good luck and enjoy the experience!
 
dmspilot said:
No it won't. The 3 hours of flight by reference to instruments required for a private pilot certificate is not instrument training, and cannot be used toward the 15 hours of instrument training required for an instrument rating, even if it is indeed given by a CFII. This is the FAA interpretation.
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Yes it can count towards instrument received for the IR, as long as it's given from a CFI-I. Read the 4th paragraph on your link.

"Therefore, the 3 hours of flight training on "the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments" in§ 61.109(a)(3) may be applied toward the 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument time under § 61.65(d)(2), but may not be applied toward the 15 hours of instrument training unless the flight instructor who provided the flight training under § 61.109(a)(3) held an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor cetiificate and otherwise meets the requirements of§ 61.65."
 
Ryanb said:
Yes it can count towards instrument received for the IR, as long as it's given from a CFI-I. Read the 4th paragraph on your link.

"Therefore, the 3 hours of flight training on "the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments" in§ 61.109(a)(3) may be applied toward the 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument time under § 61.65(d)(2), but may not be applied toward the 15 hours of instrument training unless the flight instructor who provided the flight training under § 61.109(a)(3) held an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor cetiificate and otherwise meets the requirements of§ 61.65."
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In fact, that letter reversed the status quo. Previously the consensus was that you couldn't count the 3 toward the 15 no matter what. Mea culpa.
 
Yes. All CFI must have commercial rating. Without the instrument, a commercial rated pilot is,limited to day
ight and no more than 50 nm away from base. Hence not possible to teach night flight.
 
What everyone else said. Also Sport-pilot instructors are NOT required to have an instrument.
 
Personally, I wish the FAA (and therefore instructors) would treat flight by reference to instruments for student pilots differently than what is taught for the instrument rating. If the intent is for use in an emergency, using techniques that require a scan that hasn't been practiced enough to be proficient and not emphasizing how the inherent stability of the airplane can be used to advantage seems just a bit useless to me. Especially when pilots get into airplanes that aren't fully instrument equipped.

I'd much rather see something along the lines of the procedure developed by AOPA & the University of IL in the 1950s that taught the pilot how to set the airplane up to fly itself for the most part, minimizing inputs (and therefore the potential of over-controlling) by the pilot.

Components of the technique would also possibly prevent some LOC accidents by instrument-rated pilots, all the way up into jets.
 
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Ryanb said:
Yes it can count towards instrument received for the IR, as long as it's given from a CFI-I. Read the 4th paragraph on your link.

"Therefore, the 3 hours of flight training on "the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments" in§ 61.109(a)(3) may be applied toward the 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument time under § 61.65(d)(2), but may not be applied toward the 15 hours of instrument training unless the flight instructor who provided the flight training under § 61.109(a)(3) held an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor cetiificate and otherwise meets the requirements of§ 61.65."
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Is this even a practical consideration?

I have yet to have an instrument student who only needed 15 hours of instrument training. Most need around that 40 hour number instead, but of actual training, not just instrument time. I can't see covering basic attitude flying, partial panel, holds, VOR/LOC/ILS/GPS approaches and departure procedures in just 15 hours. Has anybody seen this done?
 
RussR said:
Is this even a practical consideration?

I have yet to have an instrument student who only needed 15 hours of instrument training. Most need around that 40 hour number instead, but of actual training, not just instrument time. I can't see covering basic attitude flying, partial panel, holds, VOR/LOC/ILS/GPS approaches and departure procedures in just 15 hours. Has anybody seen this done?
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You have to go back and read Grayson to understand why it's worded so screwy.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...0/grayson-3 - (2010) legal interpretation.pdf

Grayson is 2010, and Rohlfing is 2015 "clarifying" (their word, in reality, often not so much) some of what Grayson "clarified".

Welcome to the joy of overlapping Chief Counsel letters. :p
 
Isn't it a good idea to learn from different CFIs instead of using the same one for both PPL and IR? I have always learned something new when flying with a different CFI. There are so many different techniques/styles out there.


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CrimsonFlyer said:
Isn't it a good idea to learn from different CFIs instead of using the same one for both PPL and IR? I have always learned something new when flying with a different CFI. There are so many different techniques/styles out there.
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I plan on flying with a few different CFIs here and there throughout my training just to check my proficiency. However, I do prefer to find one that's able to stay on my schedule (tons of flying) and stay with me until all my training is completed. Whether that's a reality is something I guess I'll have to find out.
 
@azblackbird here in Sarasota where I live and other places I've seen in the area you can't even get hired without the extra I.

Most schools want an instructor that can do the 3 hours of hood time and actually have it count as dual received towards instrument should someone want to move on. For schools that have a 0 to commercial program, etc, it makes more sense.

A CFI without instrument doesn't get you far around here, unless you are instructing freelance for the snowbirds and guys that want to do a BFR.

Had a friend recently get his CFI and he moved immediately into the -I addon.
 
RussR said:
Is this even a practical consideration?

I have yet to have an instrument student who only needed 15 hours of instrument training. Most need around that 40 hour number instead, but of actual training, not just instrument time. I can't see covering basic attitude flying, partial panel, holds, VOR/LOC/ILS/GPS approaches and departure procedures in just 15 hours. Has anybody seen this done?
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Most of the FAA minimum requirements don't seem very practical. I agree.

CrimsonFlyer said:
Isn't it a good idea to learn from different CFIs instead of using the same one for both PPL and IR? I have always learned something new when flying with a different CFI. There are so many different techniques/styles out there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
It probably isn't a bad idea, but regardless if you do choose to use two different instructors, the CFI who gets you through your PPL should be a -II, just so the time under the hood can count as instrument instruction received.
 
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azblackbird said:
Just some random pondering... forgive me in advance if I'm not using the right wording.

I see in the regs they require a ppl student to have at least 3 hrs. training under the hood. Just wondering if all PPL instructors (or at least the majority) have the ratings to teach instrument, and if so, are they required to have more "current" hours vs. a non-CFI instrument rated pilot?

I guess the reason I ask is that ideally I'd like to find an instructor who can stay with me through my ppl and instrument training. Would prefer someone who flys actual IMC on a somewhat regular basis, or at the very least is adamant about staying proficient in either actual or simulated.
Click to expand...

FAR 61.109 calls for three hours of FLIGHT training in the use of instruments. It is not instrument training.

Bob
 
Ryanb said:
the CFI who gets you through your PPL should be a -II, just so the time under the hood can count as instruction received.
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What is THAT supposed to mean?
 
JCranford said:
Its still logged as 'Simulated IMC', but is not loggable as Dual instruction TOWARD your IR rating
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I was asking Ryanb because he stated that it's not instruction.
 
dmspilot said:
What are the 3 hours of hood time logged as if the instructor is not a double I?
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dmspilot said:
I was asking Ryanb because he stated that it's not instruction.
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That's not what I said, don't take it out of context. We've had this conversation last night.

Fly with a CFII and that 3 hours can be counted toward the 15 hrs of dual for the IR. Fly without a -II and it cannot. If you're planning to go IR post private checkride, then you might as well fly with a CFII so those 3 hours can count towards the requirement.
 
Ryanb said:
That's not what I said, don't take it out of context. We've had this conversation last night.
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Actually, it is exactly what you said. I guess you just forgot a word. I suspected that's what you meant, which is why I asked.
 
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