Diesel motors for planes?

So the question becomes, shoot for the bigger (and more expencive) planes with a larger engine like a duramax or try and find an option to replace the 320-360 series engines found on many of the cheap planes running around?

Seems you can pick an engine and work back from there, or pick an airframe and work from there.
 
Skylane81E said:
So the question becomes, shoot for the bigger (and more expencive) planes with a larger engine like a duramax or try and find an option to replace the 320-360 series engines found on many of the cheap planes running around?

Seems you can pick an engine and work back from there, or pick an airframe and work from there.
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This gets to be a question. I'm an unashamed power junkie, so that makes me go for bigger every time. Plus, there is minimal availability of small diesels in the US. Importing one of the little European diesels with no state-side support doesn't seem like a great idea.

On the other hand, you could much more easily hit your weight target with a replacement for a 320-360, and since most experimentals are there, you'd have a bigger market. Practically speaking, it would likely make more sense to try to duplicate the small engine, but nobody else has a large engine.

They should build a DuraMin! :)
 
Small diesels are flying pretty well already. It's a 2-stroke, but the Wilksch Airmotive 3-cylinder inline is flying on some RVs and at least one (UK) Long-EZ:
http://wilksch.net/
http://www.longezediesel.com/

This appears to be a fairly simple technology to scale up. Basically each cylinder yields 40HP (their prototype was a 2-cylinder 80 HP) so theoretically a 4-cylinder version would be 160HP (perfect for a 172 or each side of a Twin Commanche or original Apache).



Back to the DuraMax concept, an old Cessna 210 would be an ideal and cheap test bed. After all, we know they run on 260 HP (the original engine) on up to 310 HP (the M variant, excluding the pressurized version).
 
From a business stand point targeting the EAB market first is probably advisable, what about a merc blue tec, those are available domestically?
 
Morne said:
Back to the DuraMax concept, an old Cessna 210 would be an ideal and cheap test bed. After all, we know they run on 260 HP (the original engine) on up to 310 HP (the M variant, excluding the pressurized version).
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Or a 182 for that matter, they have been fitted with 300 horse mills
 
Skylane81E said:
From a business stand point targeting the EAB market first is probably advisable, what about a merc blue tec, those are available domestically?
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I hadn't thought about that one, that might be a good option as well.
 
Especially if you are going to eat a redrive, IIRC that engine spins rather quickly.
 
Skylane81E said:
Especially if you are going to eat a redrive, IIRC that engine spins rather quickly.
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The gear reduction I view as undesirable, but may prove necessary, depending on the engine. That's one nice part with the Duramax - designed for the desired power in the desired RPM range.
 
I agree on redrives, weight and complexity better left off IF possible,
 
Looks like it is right above 4k for the redline on the merc engine. I remember I really liked the one I drove, smooth and quiet. I wouldn't have known it was a diesel if it weren't for the badging.
 
some of the marine diesel designs might work

The listed weights are all pretty heavy but they include a clutch, reverse gearbox, heat exchanger and freshwater plus saltwater pumps. Construction is all iron. If you pulled all that stuff off and made an aluminum head...

The Volvo lineup is what I was thinking about. Their designs for pleasure boats are compact. On vacation now so no time to research. Many of them redline at 3500 but are making 90 percent power at 2500 rpm. They are meant to turn a prop
 
N801BH said:
They illegally poached my pic and posted it to their site.... I am a big diesel fanatic.... But.. The Delta Hawk business model and marketing plans are right up there with Bennie Madoff... IMHO..

And we all know where that ended up..:eek:
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File a copyright infringement suit...intentional distribution of a copyrighted work (and a photograph is copyrighted the moment it's taken) is punishable by up to $250k per infringement, and technically, each time they send that pic to a viewer, it's a distinct infringement.

Or if you proceed with civil penalties, same rules, but the max statutory damages (and you have no need to prove actual damages) are only $150k
 
N801BH said:
They illegally poached my pic and posted it to their site.... I am a big diesel fanatic.... But.. The Delta Hawk business model and marketing plans are right up there with Bennie Madoff... IMHO..

And we all know where that ended up..:eek:
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I really liked the Delta Hawk and was thinking about putting into my Tango way back when I was still in the planning stages. Unfortunately, it wasn't available when I needed to install the engine and didn't want to wait. Now at $85k, they've pretty much priced themselves out of my market. If they could get the price <$40k then they might have a pretty good sales increase.
 
N801BH said:
They illegally poached my pic and posted it to their site.....:eek:
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That's what I thought. I couldn't figure out why you would be promoting a Deltahawk when your have your own engine/firewall business to promote. It's almost worst than copyright enfringement, it's more fraud since you are in a competing business.
 
JeffDG said:
File a copyright infringement suit...intentional distribution of a copyrighted work (and a photograph is copyrighted the moment it's taken) is punishable by up to $250k per infringement, and technically, each time they send that pic to a viewer, it's a distinct infringement.

Or if you proceed with civil penalties, same rules, but the max statutory damages (and you have no need to prove actual damages) are only $150k
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And this is why you shouldn't practice law without having gone to law school... :mad2:

Ben - just have an attorney send them a cease and desist letter.
 
Ateaist said:
And this is why you shouldn't practice law without having gone to law school... :mad2:

Ben - just have an attorney send them a cease and desist letter.
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I will do this one better.............

I am sure there are some damn good attorneys on this board... I apparently have a case against DeltaHawk and here is my offer...

File the papers, win a judgement, and you get 33%, I get 33% and 33% goes toward Pilots Of America to maintain this site...

Any takers:dunno::rolleyes:.....
 
N801BH said:
I will do this one better.............

I am sure there are some damn good attorneys on this board... I apparently have a case against DeltaHawk and here is my offer...

File the papers, win a judgement, and you get 33%, I get 33% and 33% goes toward Pilots Of America to maintain this site...

Any takers:dunno::rolleyes:.....
Click to expand...

Where's that remaining 1% go? ;)
 
N801BH said:
I will do this one better.............

I am sure there are some damn good attorneys on this board... I apparently have a case against DeltaHawk and here is my offer...

File the papers, win a judgement, and you get 33%, I get 33% and 33% goes toward Pilots Of America to maintain this site...

Any takers:dunno::rolleyes:.....
Click to expand...

Problem is that 33% of $0 is still $0. Unless you actually registered a copyright on the picture with the copyright office, you cannot get statutory damages and must prove actual damages. And may I assume you don't have any monetary losses (such as loss of business) that you can prove was caused by their use of it?

The best you can hope for is a permanent injunction preventing them from displaying the picture, and those are not done on a contingency fee basis. The cease and desist letter will accomplish the same, with far less cost.
 
Ateaist said:
Problem is that 33% of $0 is still $0. Unless you actually registered a copyright on the picture with the copyright office, you cannot get statutory damages and must prove actual damages. And may I assume you don't have any monetary losses (such as loss of business) that you can prove was caused by their use of it?

The best you can hope for is a permanent injunction preventing them from displaying the picture, and those are not done on a contingency fee basis. The cease and desist letter will accomplish the same, with far less cost.
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No cost to me.... I ain't paying a lawyer a dime to file the complaint... if there is a good lawyer out there who wants to roll the dice, then step up... And.... I bet I can show damages..;)
 
No surprise - Frank's always been a shady character.
 
Meanwhile, Lycoming lifts the kimono on DEL-120:
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Lycoming-Diesel-Details221664-1.html

"Speaking of civil use, would Lycoming consider certifying the DEL-120 for civilian use? Yes, it would, Kraft says, but the decision will be driven by OEM interest, which has thus far been lukewarm."

Not enough power for SR-22, and I suspect Cirrus would not re-engine just the SR-20 alone.
 
Quote from the article - " As rough cost predictor, Kraft says a certified civil diesel engine would cost more than twice as much as an equivalent gasoline engine, which more or less mirrors Centurion pricing. Lycoming expects to release more information on the DEL-120 and other engines later in the year."

And there's the rub, it'll never fly in the US, we don't have enough cost delta on 100LL versus JetA (or diesel) to make it worth buying. The rest of the world, maybe, but not here.

If by "more than twice as much" we can put even a conservative number of $40,000 extra on the price, and a 2000-hour TBO, then you would have to save $20/hr on fuel alone just to break even. At 10 gph that's a $2/gallon delta which you're not going to get in the US unless you certify it for automotive pump diesel (or non-tax red-dye diesel), and I seriously doubt it would get certified for anything but Jet-A.
 
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airguy said:
Quote from the article - " As rough cost predictor, Kraft says a certified civil diesel engine would cost more than twice as much as an equivalent gasoline engine, which more or less mirrors Centurion pricing. Lycoming expects to release more information on the DEL-120 and other engines later in the year."

And there's the rub, it'll never fly in the US, we don't have enough cost delta on 100LL versus JetA (or diesel) to make it worth buying. The rest of the world, maybe, but not here.

If by "more than twice as much" we can put even a conservative number of $40,000 extra on the price, and a 2000-hour TBO, then you would have to save $20/hr on fuel alone just to break even. At 10 gph that's a $2/gallon delta which you're not going to get in the US unless you certify it for automotive pump diesel (or non-tax red-dye diesel), and I seriously doubt it would get certified for anything but Jet-A.
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I disagree that it won't fly in the US. I think that diesels will make new planes more attractive to buy. If you're in the market to spend $700k on an SR22, $750k for a diesel probably won't phase you much. WAAS is a $50k upgrade on a DA42, for instance. At least that's what the owner of one told me.

Where it will be much harder to market is on STC'd retrofits, which will be difficult for many people to justify in this country.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I disagree that it won't fly in the US. I think that diesels will make new planes more attractive to buy. If you're in the market to spend $700k on an SR22, $750k for a diesel probably won't phase you much. WAAS is a $50k upgrade on a DA42, for instance. At least that's what the owner of one told me.

Where it will be much harder to market is on STC'd retrofits, which will be difficult for many people to justify in this country.
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Definitely.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I disagree that it won't fly in the US. I think that diesels will make new planes more attractive to buy. If you're in the market to spend $700k on an SR22, $750k for a diesel probably won't phase you much. WAAS is a $50k upgrade on a DA42, for instance. At least that's what the owner of one told me.

Where it will be much harder to market is on STC'd retrofits, which will be difficult for many people to justify in this country.
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Yeah, the small HP motors will only make sense on rentals that see a lot of hours, this particular engine exists because the military wanted it, and they spend our money much more freely than we do ourselves. Where the failure is is in the higher HP market, the 300-600 HP market it where adding the cost of the retrofit makes sense because those are the commercial operators where the fuel savings make it work because they are two fold, in the fuel price savings as well as increased revenue from being able to replace fuel load with pay load. They are also the engines where replacing leaded fuel will be the most difficult.
 
Henning said:
Where the failure is is in the higher HP market, the 300-600 HP market ...
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The higher in power you go, the more attractive an equivalent turboprop becomes. Rolls-Royce has a turboprop (M250), which goes as low as 317 shp.
 
Henning said:
Yeah, the small HP motors will only make sense on rentals that see a lot of hours, this particular engine exists because the military wanted it, and they spend our money much more freely than we do ourselves. Where the failure is is in the higher HP market, the 300-600 HP market it where adding the cost of the retrofit makes sense because those are the commercial operators where the fuel savings make it work because they are two fold, in the fuel price savings as well as increased revenue from being able to replace fuel load with pay load. They are also the engines where replacing leaded fuel will be the most difficult.
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Many of the world's militaries have been standardizing all their equipment to run on diesel or jet fuel for a number of years now, to simplify their fuel logistics.
 
FormerHangie said:
Many of the world's militaries have been standardizing all their equipment to run on diesel or jet fuel for a number of years now, to simplify their fuel logistics.
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Yep, the US Navy has a Diesel outboard that has a spark plug Wankel power head.
 
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