Diesel motors for planes?

Morne said:
Ford product? How about Ford? Lord knows they sponsor Airventure pretty well.
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Duramax is a GM engine (actually Isuzu). Ford sponsors AirVenture quite a bit, but actually doesn't have interest in getting into aviation again. Henry Ford realized early on that aviation was a good way to make a small fortune out of a large one.

Cummins turbo diesel would be another option, but then you have even more weight to attempt to lose.
 
Morne said:
Ford product? How about Ford? Lord knows they sponsor Airventure pretty well.
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A Ford ? In a plane ?:dunno:....

Who in their right mind would want that nightmare.:yikes::rolleyes::lol:..

ps... somewhere in one of my posts on an earlier topic I explained what Ford tried to do to me when I was at OSH with my plane....

Feel free to try and dig it up as I have no clue what topic it was..:dunno:
 
Some of the little 2.0l 4 cylinder TDI diesels in the european audis make 250ft.lbs @ 2k rpm

They weigh about 330lbs, they are cast iron block with aluminum heads.
 
dell30rb said:
Some of the little 2.0l 4 cylinder TDI diesels in the european audis make 250ft.lbs @ 2k rpm

Not sure what they weigh, they are cast iron block with aluminum heads.
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They weigh about as much as an O-360, and that translates into about 95 HP.
 
This is the spec I was reading

125 kilowatts (170 PS; 168 bhp) @ 4,200 rpm; 350 newton metres (258 lbf·ft) @ 1,800-2,500 rpm — BMN, BMR, BRD...
At 2400rpm, that is 118hp and around 70% of max HP

A 180HP O-360 would make 126hp at 70% power. No idea what the fuel burn is between the two, but i'd guess the diesel would burn at least 35-40 percent less fuel than a carb lycoming.

You would have to add a radiator but otherwise the weight seems okay. I believe the turbo is incorporated into the weight I posted earlier, as the turbo is integrated into the exhaust manifold.
 
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dell30rb said:
This is the spec I was reading

125 kilowatts (170 PS; 168 bhp) @ 4,200 rpm; 350 newton metres (258 lbf·ft) @ 1,800-2,500 rpm — BMN, BMR, BRD...
At 2400rpm, that is 118hp and around 70% of max HP

A 180HP O-360 would make 126hp at 70% power. No idea what the fuel burn is between the two, but i'd guess the diesel would burn at least 35-40 percent less fuel than a carb lycoming.

You would have to add a radiator but otherwise the weight seems okay. I believe the turbo is incorporated into the weight I posted earlier, as the turbo is integrated into the exhaust manifold.
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That motor would be a good candidate for a redrive and stuffed in the front of any plane needing a 0-360...... IMHO.
 
Yep, but the diesel will need a gearbox. What you're talking about is what Thielert did. The end result was a bit heavier than an O-360 for a bit less power on substantially improved fuel burn.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Alright, big question: who's going to fund the project? :)
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What we really need to do is partner with the A&P school you gave the Aztruck to. Formulate an agreement so they can add a airframe /powerplant mod class to their curriculam and use the aztruck as a test bed.....

They get hands on experience of the entire process.

We get to explore ,test and possibly produce a working prototype.

The world gets a viable diesel engine conversion....

Only thing missing is some idiot pilot who will test fly the creation..:eek:..
 
I'd test fly it, so that's not an issue. But with the school in Texas, the logistics would be pretty hard to work out on travel. For me to be involved would require someplace local, and they'd need engineering involvement at some level.

You make me sound like a nicer person than I am - I sold the school the Aztec, but they haven't paid for it yet. So maybe I unknowingly gave it to them! :eek:
 
Ted DuPuis said:
You make me sound like a nicer person than I am - I sold the school the Aztec, but they haven't paid for it yet. So maybe I unknowingly gave it to them! :eek:
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You didn't get the memo yet ??:dunno::dunno:..

The one I got says " Ted DuPuis's gift to our school was unexpected and highly appreciated"..:yes:;):lol:
 
N801BH said:
You didn't get the memo yet ??:dunno::dunno:..

The one I got says " Ted DuPuis's gift to our school was unexpected and highly appreciated"..:yes:;):lol:
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:rofl:

And I'd never win a war against the Republic of Texas...
 
There's an A&P school where the 310 is based, too, so might be able to convince them. But you'd still be talking $100k for a test bed aircraft that would be suitably flyable and enough to get a working prototype on it.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
There's an A&P school where the 310 is based, too, so might be able to convince them. But you'd still be talking $100k for a test bed aircraft that would be suitably flyable and enough to get a working prototype on it.
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Surely there are some oil barons , dot com, etc, guys and gals around who are tired of having the banks paying them .6% on their money and would be interested in investing some seed money into a viable prototype program....
 
N801BH said:
Surely there are some oil barons , dot com, etc, guys and gals around who are tired of having the banks paying them .6% on their money and would be interested in investing some seed money into a viable prototype program....
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Well, I'd be all for doing the engineering effort if someone wanted to fork over the cash.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Well, I'd be all for doing the engineering effort if someone wanted to fork over the cash.
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I am in for the machining and fabricating of the entire assembly if someone wanted to fork over the cash..

All we need is a sugar daddy /sugar momma..:wink2:;)

Let's look at this logically.. We can pull this off using nothing but POA talent...

Ben can do the machining/fabricating.

Ted can do the engineering and ...test flying...:eek:

Henning can be #2 test pilot and #1 promoter.

The guy in Texas with the recycling yard can be the core provider.

Ron and Steven can give us the FAA's regs.

Tom can tell us only certified things will work

David can be the pimp.. errrr.. provider of the "comfort" girls. to get us through those "lonely" times.

Jay can sponsor us during those needed relaxation days to refresh our brains and minds with a stay at his hotel.

Geico will be our best friend if we put a RV-10 decal on it.

All others... feel free to pony up with your expertise..

:rofl::lol::rofl::rolleyes:;)..

ps.. this post was done in jest.. please, don't anyone get their shorts in a wad ..:nonod::nono:
 
:rofl:

Actually my point was I'd do the engineering work pro-bono if someone wanted to fund the project. But then we'd have to figure out what to do with the finished product in the end.
 
Well, there we have it. Cessna is advertising the SMA diesel available in new 182s.
 
I bet if everyone on POA kicked in $100 we'd have it more than licked.

Of course then we couldn't ***** about 100LL going away.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I bet if everyone on POA kicked in $100 we'd have it more than licked.

Of course then we couldn't ***** about 100LL going away.
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Well, $100k will get you a flying prototype. You'll need to add another 0 or two to hit certified engines.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Well, $100k will get you a flying prototype. You'll need to add another 0 or two to hit certified engines.
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But...... if we can fly a prototype that demonstrates a viable, marketable product, then numerous entities around the world will be beating our door down to buy the concept...:yes::yes::yes:..

Then they get to pay the extra zero's for certification..;)

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
 
N801BH said:
But...... if we can fly a prototype that demonstrates a viable, marketable product, then numerous entities around the world will be beating our door down to buy the concept...:yes::yes::yes:..

Then they get to pay the extra zero's for certification..;)

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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Isn't that Moller's method?

Dan
 
Alexb2000 said:
I thought there were 10,000 members, obviously that isn't right.

Never mind.
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9242 according to the members list. So you are correct!

Alright folks, start chipping in!
 
Just a quick post as I need to head out to plow snow for my customers....

The initial part of a diesel development venture is pretty simple. We get a motor that runs, even if it is worn out.... Strip off the unnecessary components, get rough idea of weight. If that looks promising then move forward to build a redrive, or a direct drive. whatever the group votes to explore... Build a test stand with simple data reading stuff like a strain gauge or even a pull scale. Fit a prop to it since we need to experiment with thrust loads and gyroscopic loads... Run it for hours, move some serious air and burn up 50 -100 gallon of diesel fuel and then put our heads together and discuss the results.......

This preliminary testing could be done for a few thousand bucks and out of pocket expenses will be minimal... If it proves to be a viable concept, then move forward to build a flyable unit using a iron block.... if that goes well the only thing we will need for a true, lightweight powerplant is to switch the block to aluminum.... There are numerous foundries around that are hurting for work and my guess is finding one that is a good fit for our needs is good.

My gut feeling is the base engine is sound and will work perfectly, it is the components that need to be beta tested, as any auto engine has to overcome....

I will get back later today after the snow is all removed.... Lets keep discussing this so give some feedback... both good and bad.....
 
N801BH said:
My gut feeling is the base engine is sound and will work perfectly, it is the components that need to be beta tested, as any auto engine has to overcome....
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I believe you will be amazed if you have never torn a Duramax apart. Everything is designed to be very heavy duty. The water pump for example is a super heavy duty gear driven unit. The alternator is a heavy duty 105 amp with copper internals. Bosch makes the injection and it uses the proven CP3 pump.

The question in my mind, is there some way to reduce the weight enough to use the stock block? That would make this much more cost effective.

If there was some way to keep the cost to about $30K per engine and the conversion of a single to around $60K, twins maybe $110K. Some cost close to that would open up the widest market.
 
The question with use of the stock block comes down to what weight we're willing to accept. If we want to be able to fit in any current 300-350 HP experimentals without screwing up CG, that restricts us to matching the currentengine weights pretty closely. A 421 or Navajo makes an easy bolt-in because the weights would be closest, but then you have to convert that plane to experimental.

Now, that's not required for proving a concept on the ground, but CG needs to be respected for flying.

I think it'd be easy to do $30k per engine experimental. Doing it certified gets harder and would require the FAA to accept some things they haven't in the past.
 
One Duramax question comes in to electronics - the Allison transmission is closely integrated, how would the engine behave if the transmission was disconnected? Assuming stock electronics.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
One Duramax question comes in to electronics - the Allison transmission is closely integrated, how would the engine behave if the transmission was disconnected? Assuming stock electronics.
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The Allison runs off of a separate TCM with a data link to the PCM for he engine. With a custom tuner like EFILive you can separate the link and turn off any parameters that would cause codes.
 
guardrail said:
The Allison runs off of a separate TCM with a data link to the PCM for he engine. With a custom tuner like EFILive you can separate the link and turn off any parameters that would cause codes.
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Good to know, thanks. I had wondered how integrated they did that. Some are very connected, some aren't.
 
Skylane81E said:
Have tools will travel...
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Cincinnati would be an optimal location for this project. We have some great A&Ps (you, Moose, VanDy), a marginal engineer (me), plenty of airports, flat land, and Hartzell is up the road a few miles.
 
N801BH said:
Yeah... I cruise that site every once and and awhile... 99% of the people who post on there are keyboard engineers with ZERO real world experience.... Personally I would not move forward till we have a true and accurate weight.... The whole idea might be over before it even starts.
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Exactly. Need an actual weight and a target aircraft.
 
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