Diesel motors for planes?

jhausch said:
...OK, last comment - too bad these guys seemed to have dropped off the map. I like this design and thought it might be even neater with the MUI approach....
http://www.aviationpros.com/article/10381231/gemini-100
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The Gemini project was led by Tim Archer, who told me the funding just wasn't there to complete development. (Tim went on to head Superior's Chinese operation.) With all the interest in Rotax alternatives, it would have been fun to have one that ran on Jet-A.

The OPOC diesel isn't dead, however. EcoMotors, a group which includes backing from Bill Gates, is working on this, and just acquired Katech, a Detroit-based engine prototyping company, to help it happen faster. The bad news - The modules are pretty big, ruling out an LSA-sized variant.
 
PW_Plack said:
The Gemini project was led by Tim Archer, who told me the funding just wasn't there to complete development. (Tim went on to head Superior's Chinese operation.) With all the interest in Rotax alternatives, it would have been fun to have one that ran on Jet-A.

The OPOC diesel isn't dead, however. EcoMotors, a group which includes backing from Bill Gates, is working on this, and just acquired Katech, a Detroit-based engine prototyping company, to help it happen faster. The bad news - The modules are pretty big, ruling out an LSA-sized variant.
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The Gemini with the two cranks just seems so much more elegant. The EcoMotor may by superior, but it looks much more complicated.
 
PW_Plack said:
The OPOC diesel isn't dead, however. EcoMotors, a group which includes backing from Bill Gates, is working on this, and just acquired Katech, a Detroit-based engine prototyping company, to help it happen faster. The bad news - The modules are pretty big, ruling out an LSA-sized variant.
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The usual crap. "Green" tech with promises to change the world. If you go to their "News" page, you'll notice that all the articles include the phrase "in China". Invest money, so we can take American tech, develop it in China and then make and sell it in China. Part of the new China first policy industry seems to have these days. Get your foot in China no matter what. It usually includes sharing all your technical innovations with the Chinese government. The OPOC deal is no different.

Awesome! China win! Short term profits all around! America number 2!! Planet saved! Yea!!!!

:mad2:
 
CR the injection is controlled at the nozzle like your car's EFI system, it's actually a much simpler system much easier to make redundant, also it makes more power, runs smoother and cleaner. At this point it's probably the only way to meet the new emissions standards. With Direct Injection pressure sitting behind the nozzle and a computer controlling it withe the ability to open and close it for various amounts of time per burn stroke and keep feeding fuel, one can optimize the injection profile in real time for the given needs and conditions.

DDEC just stands for Detroit Diesel Electronic Control IIRC, and all the new (past few years) Detroit/MTU engines are all HP Common Rail systems.
 
Henning said:
CR the injection is controlled at the nozzle like your car's EFI system, it's actually a much simpler system much easier to make redundant, also it makes more power, runs smoother and cleaner. At this point it's probably the only way to meet the new emissions standards. With Direct Injection pressure sitting behind the nozzle and a computer controlling it withe the ability to open and close it for various amounts of time per burn stroke and keep feeding fuel, one can optimize the injection profile in real time for the given needs and conditions.

DDEC just stands for Detroit Diesel Electronic Control IIRC, and all the new (past few years) Detroit/MTU engines are all HP Common Rail systems.
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Thanks.
 
jhausch said:
I don't see how losing an MUI would be any more vibration than losing spark on a cylinder.
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Much higher compression ratio than spark ignited engines = much more vibration with one cylinder off.

On automotive applications, 4cyl diesel running on 3 feels and looks like the engine will jump out of the engine bay.

I would be much more comfortable flying a diesel engined plane if they implemented cylinder shut-off technology as is currently being released to diesel engines by Bosch and Siemens as a fail-safe method. On a plane, losing a cylinder on a diesel engine without losing compression is a big problem and like Henning said, would probably require an immediate shutoff to keep the engine attached to the plane.
 
Henning said:
CR the injection is controlled at the nozzle like your car's EFI system, it's actually a much simpler system much easier to make redundant, also it makes more power, runs smoother and cleaner. At this point it's probably the only way to meet the new emissions standards. With Direct Injection pressure sitting behind the nozzle and a computer controlling it withe the ability to open and close it for various amounts of time per burn stroke and keep feeding fuel, one can optimize the injection profile in real time for the given needs and conditions.

DDEC just stands for Detroit Diesel Electronic Control IIRC, and all the new (past few years) Detroit/MTU engines are all HP Common Rail systems.
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You can pass EU5 with unit injectors, but only with piezo nozzles on them, which are very very unreliable.
CR is the way to go, especially if you don't have to care about NOx emissions. So it is the perfect technology for airplanes.
 
mtuomi said:
Much higher compression ratio than spark ignited engines = much more vibration with one cylinder off.

On automotive applications, 4cyl diesel running on 3 feels and looks like the engine will jump out of the engine bay.

I would be much more comfortable flying a diesel engined plane if they implemented cylinder shut-off technology as is currently being released to diesel engines by Bosch and Siemens as a fail-safe method. On a plane, losing a cylinder on a diesel engine without losing compression is a big problem and like Henning said, would probably require an immediate shutoff to keep the engine attached to the plane.
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Interesting.
How does cylinder shut off work?
 
jhausch said:
How does cylinder shut off work?
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In a car, it uses a VVT-like mechanism to move the cam along its axies. Usually it's done to switch lobes between power and economy timing, but can be done to leave intake valves permanently open. Thus way there are little pumping losses. The problem I foresee with this idea is that you cannot contol a cam per cylinder this way. Instead, we should look at the Jake Brake for a template of the solution. Have a solenoid which depresses one rocker on computer command, or something like that.
 
zaitcev said:
In a car, it uses a VVT-like mechanism to move the cam along its axies. Usually it's done to switch lobes between power and economy timing, but can be done to leave intake valves permanently open. Thus way there are little pumping losses. The problem I foresee with this idea is that you cannot contol a cam per cylinder this way. Instead, we should look at the Jake Brake for a template of the solution. Have a solenoid which depresses one rocker on computer command, or something like that.
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I would expect car cyl shut off to be nice and quiet. Jakes are not!
 
Yak-152 carried out the first flight at the Irkutsk assembly plant yesterday, powered by the Raikhlin RED A03 turbocharged diesel engine. Video provides the unusual sound of the motor. Test pilot was Vasily Sevastyanov (not if a relative of the cosmonaut, maybe son).

 
zaitcev said:
Yak-152 carried out the first flight at the Irkutsk assembly plant yesterday, powered by the Raikhlin RED A03 turbocharged diesel engine. Video provides the unusual sound of the motor. Test pilot was Vasily Sevastyanov (not if a relative of the cosmonaut, maybe son). [...]
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Very cool. Like quite a few other Russian developments. I wished more than once than they would be better at developing reliable, customer friendly products and efficient, sustainable sales and service networks.
 
zaitcev said:
Meanwhile, Lycoming lifts the kimono on DEL-120:
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Lycoming-Diesel-Details221664-1.html

"Speaking of civil use, would Lycoming consider certifying the DEL-120 for civilian use? Yes, it would, Kraft says, but the decision will be driven by OEM interest, which has thus far been lukewarm."
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Only 4 years down the road, and Lycoming posted a page for DEL-120 on their website:
https://www.lycoming.com/engines/del-120

Did I say 200 hp? It's only 180 continuous, actually.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
They've had that page up on their website for a while. The real question is if it'll end up in an OEM application at some point.
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I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Lycoming probably would want a commitment to a certain number of engines before they go ahead with the certification. With today's OEMs producing finished airplanes only in the double digits, what OEM would even qualify? Cessna? I think they already have some diesel deals, don't they? Cirrus? Do they make enough SR-20s to qualify? Don't know. Piper? Maybe...
 
As far as airplanes "rolling coal" .. don't B52s already do this?

Here comes 500,000 lbs of freedom!
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How the heck do they get turbine engines to burn that dirty?
 
^mind you, Jalopnik's write up isn't great.. the article can be summed up with "inefficient combustion and water injection" sounds like the older jets just ran more rich and had incomplete combustion
 
I'm surprised they haven't come up with a more modern power plant in all these decades.
 
Palmpilot said:
I'm surprised they haven't come up with a more modern power plant in all these decades.
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The "H" models, the only ones still flying, replaced the original turbojet engines with a cleaner burning turbofan.
 
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