Diamond DA40 or Cessna Skyhawk PPL training Question

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Aspiringpilot, May 26, 2018.

?

Should I stick with the cessna or go with the DA40?

  1. Cessna

    25 vote(s)
    73.5%
  2. DA40

    9 vote(s)
    26.5%
  1. JustinD

    JustinD Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    662
    Location:
    Port Orange, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JustinD
    I know some things vary in some countries, but in the united states if you have a PPL for ASEL you would not need a "type rating" to fly the 172. A type rating is only required if the airplane weighs more than 12,500Lbs at MTOW and/or is powered by a turbofan or turbojet engine. While legally you could get your private in a diamond today, and tomorrow go fly a 172 with no instruction, I'd probably say generally not a good idea and would probably be safest to do a flight or two with an instructor first, but it is legal, and no type rating is required
     
  2. N1120A

    N1120A Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    216
    Location:
    AG5B MYF
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    N1120A
    Neither. Train in Cherokees.

    I agree that you should learn on steam gauges/G5s, including doing your instrument training on them. Flying the glass in IMC is a piece of cake, while steam gauges challenge even veterans in the soup. I had to have my instructor bail me out on an approach I did in a Cherokee, in actual but just through a layer, with steam gauges that I had handled perfectly in a G1000 DA40, to minimums, despite the fact that there is no question that I fly Cherokees much better than Diamonds.

    Flying the dials makes you a better pilot. Glass makes flying in IMC easier and safer, but that isn't how you learn .
     
  3. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    5,766
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    Here's a fairly comprehensive article about the 172 safety record from Richard Collins. He mentions the Diamond, and you pretty well summed it up regarding the confidence interval on a small sample size:

    "As a matter of record, Diamond currently claims to have a better record than the 172. I have looked at their numbers and if everything is accurate they are probably right. The Diamond fleet is, however, much smaller so the inevitable yearly changes in the number of accidents would cause big changes in accident rates."

    https://airfactsjournal.com/2016/07/whats-wrong-cessna-172-pilots/
     
  4. tspear

    tspear Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,685
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timothy
    LMAO. This is a typical grandiose statement by most older pilots who have not thought it through.
    Glass is much more sensitive, therefore it is much harder to keep the needles on the mark.
    The real difference is in how a pilot interprets the information combined with the skill of the instructor. Therefore always have the pilot try both and see what his/her brain can gleam the information most quickly.
    By far, it is older more experienced instructors who teach steam gauge planes. It is also the older instructors that demand better skills.
    So always ask yourself, how does steam gauges affect stick and rudder?

    Tim

    Sent from my LG-TP260 using Tapatalk
     
  5. jarinawoz

    jarinawoz Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2017
    Messages:
    17
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jarinawoz
    dont tell me, if you are certified to a 150/152, you can sit and fly in a 172 just like that :O
     
  6. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Ejection Handle Pulled PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    12,146
    Location:
    My own special place.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Old dog w/o new tricks
    Not sure what point your ridiculous post is trying to make but my statement is factual. You do not need a type rating to fly a 172.
     
  7. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    3,057
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    Where do I go to get certified to a 150/152?
     
  8. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    3,057
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    Looking at your post history, it looks like you are a student pilot so we should be more helpful.

    Yes, if you have a valid private pilot single engine land certificate, and medical, and meet the other qualifications to fly that day, you can exercise those privileges in pretty much any small piston aircraft unless it requires additional endorsements such as high performance, tailwheel, complex, or pressurized. The owner of the plane, your instructor, or your insurance company may not let you, but there are no type certifications required for small piston GA airplanes such as 152, 172, etc.

    For example, this winter I climbed into a Piper Cherokee solo and flew it without ever having been in one before. I read the operating handbook and went flying. Totally legal. Maybe not smart, but legal.
     
  9. N1120A

    N1120A Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    216
    Location:
    AG5B MYF
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    N1120A
    1) I'm not an "older pilot"

    2) My instructor was/is 2 years younger than me

    3) I have experience flying in actual IMC in both G1000 and steam gauge/no HSI planes. It is night and day.
     
  10. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    18,382
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    The G1000 has a HSI
     
  11. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,011
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dmspilot
    Richard Collins has put "not statistically significant" in layman's terms with that statement. In other words, any perceived superiority in accident rate is statistically indistinguishable from random chance.
     
  12. N1120A

    N1120A Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    216
    Location:
    AG5B MYF
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    N1120A
    No, really?

    Yes, I'm aware of that.
     
  13. tspear

    tspear Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,685
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timothy
    So tell me. How does steam make you a better pilot?

    Tim
     
  14. N1120A

    N1120A Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    216
    Location:
    AG5B MYF
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    N1120A
    By forcing you to work harder to process the same amount of information.
     
    flyingcheesehead likes this.
  15. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    21,270
    Location:
    UQACY, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iMooniac
    It forces you to build that big pretty picture in your brain, rather than spoon feeding it to you.
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  16. tspear

    tspear Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,685
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timothy
    What information?
    Reminder, steam gauge is ONLY the six pack of information.
    How does this improve basic flying skill.

    Tim
     
  17. tspear

    tspear Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,685
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timothy
    What information is that?
    Attitude is spoon fed in both.
    Altitude. Both.
    Airspeed. KIAS is both. Maybe KTAS, but how does that affect flying skill?
    Turn/Slip: Both

    Give me a point where steam makes you actually work harder than glass for PPL?

    Tim
     
  18. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    21,270
    Location:
    UQACY, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iMooniac
    Two big things, one of which doesn't apply if you have a nice color moving map GPS in the panel:

    1) Attitude, attitude, attitude. The glass has a giant display, such that you can easily determine your attitude from peripheral vision while you're doing something else. On steam, you need to maintain a higher level of concentration on the AI, and come back to it frequently. Glass also has a much higher resolution, such that you can easily see a half-degree variation in pitch, whereas in a steam gauge airplane you'll catch that first on the airspeed indicator, then the VSI, then the altimeter, and THEN the AI. Meanwhile, the glass pilot made an immediate correction to attitude before altitude or airspeed varied significantly, while the steam pilot will have the higher workload of returning to the desired altitude and then re-establishing truly level flight.

    2) Situational awareness. Again, a big color moving map GPS will spoon feed that to you, but every full glass panel (ie, not just a basic G5 type thing) is going to have that, while there are plenty of steam gauge planes without it. Plenty of IFR GPS units still don't have that, such as the very-common KLN 89B. If you learn on steam without a fancy GPS, you'll learn to build that map in your head.
     
  19. tspear

    tspear Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,685
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timothy
    If you are looking inside that much flying VFR than you are not flying the plane. You are flying the instruments. Eyes out the window.
    Now when you talk IR, glass is so sensitive that most people actually over correct and chase the needle. So you must learn primary instruments, secondary and watch for trends.
    Different skills for both. Some find one easy, others find the other easy, and a few are lucky and find both easy.

    Tim

    Sent from my LG-TP260 using Tapatalk
     
  20. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    21,270
    Location:
    UQACY, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iMooniac
    I was talking about instrument flying, for attitude at least. Situational awareness applies to both - Even VFR, if you have the big shiny map to glance at whenever you want, you won't be keeping track of your situation the way you *have* to if you don't have that big shiny map available.
     
  21. tspear

    tspear Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,685
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timothy
    The big shiny map is part of the MFD or Nav/COM. It is not part of the PFD (normally).
    As such, a "steam gauge" with a GNS530 has the big shiny map....
    The J3 cub with a tablet has the big shiny map...

    Tim
     
  22. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    21,270
    Location:
    UQACY, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iMooniac
    Which is why I said...

     
  23. tspear

    tspear Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,685
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timothy
    And brings us back to the OP. This is for a PPL. Not IR....

    Tim
     
  24. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    21,270
    Location:
    UQACY, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iMooniac
    The OP, which said...

    ... which means that IR will follow.
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  25. N1120A

    N1120A Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    216
    Location:
    AG5B MYF
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    N1120A
    There is a reason glass panels are built around a significantly larger attitude indicator - because that is the single most important piece of information when you are in the clouds and the one your senses will fool you on. The OP wants to make flying a career, which means getting an IR. Better to learn on something harder.
     
  26. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2013
    Messages:
    3,593
    Location:
    A Rubber Room
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cli4ord
    Save your money.
     
  27. easik

    easik Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2017
    Messages:
    168
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    easik
    Any of the 2 aircraft is as safe as you fly it.
    - Train in the DA40 because it does have one of the best safety records in GA, and yes statistically better record than the 172. Also it's a more modern airframe. Most of my hours are in the DA40 so I'm obviously biased.
    But if I had a do over, I would definitely
    - Train in the Cessna because it's cheaper and it's widely more available if you need to fly, own or rent after getting your license
     
  28. jaymark6655

    jaymark6655 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Messages:
    257
    Location:
    Bedford, IN
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jaymark6655
    Train in the 172, transition to the DA will be easy, short, and cheaper than doing all your training in it.

    When I started I had a choice between a more expensive 172 or a cheaper Piper. I chose the shorter drive because after 40+ trips to and from the airport, the cost of auto fuel cancelled out the cheaper airplane and I ended up with an awesome instructor.
     
  29. Sonoran

    Sonoran Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2017
    Messages:
    3
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Sonoran
    Don't make the decision on how to train for an initial PPL based on avionics packages. Your PPL training is all about VFR flight and trying to "future proof" yourself by starting with a more advanced avionics package is not really important enough to be your deciding factor. At this point who knows what your first airplane will be (if you buy)?

    My advice is to consider the instructor and the school first: Find out about their approach to training and interview the instructor to see what their training philosophy is, ask when their student's typically solo (hours), and how many students have to take their check-ride a second or third time. Ask about their average hours to check-ride. Ask them if you can expect to keep the same instructor throughout your training program (small schools employing older instructors are usually better about this). Find out if the instructor's personality works with yours. Ask your instructor how he handles time conflicts, you don't want someone who's constantly canceling flights. Find out how many aircraft they have, how they handle a situation where an aircraft is out of service for an extended period due to maintenance. Find out if they might have a better rate to offer if you pay for blocks of time ahead of time (although I wouldn't do this until you've had a few lessons and are satisfied that the school/instructor are a good match for you).


    The good thing for you is you have two schools you like right next to each other, so if one doesn't work out you can easily transfer to the other.

    Both of these two aircraft are excellent trainers with airframes and handling characteristics that are really well-suited for training a new pilot. Worry about avionics, and which aircraft makes the best IFR platform, after you get your PPL.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018