Departure procedures and routes...

[TangoWhiskey]

Saturday morning armchair flying; playing 'what ifs' with a trip from Alliance Fort Worth (KAFW) to Centennial (KAPA) to see a friend.

FltPlan.com shows most common routing given to pilots under IFR is "WORTH5.CDS QUAIL.QUAIL6".

A number of questions arise. You can follow this route on SkyVector.com by entering this in the waypoints field, or clicking the link I provided for it: KAFW FERRA SCABI CDS LAA HGO QUAIL KAPA

Other docs:
WORTH5 DP PIC PAGE 1 / WORTH5 DP TEXT PAGE 2
QUAIL6 STAR

Questions:

• From Childress VOR (CDS), which is the terminus of the Worth5 DP, there are no low altitude airways to join Either Lamar (LAA) or Hugo (HGO) VORs on the Quail 6 arrival. If the FltPlan.com "issued clearances" are to be believed as written, is DIRECT TO from CDS to LAA assumed?
• The FltPlan.com arrival is listed as "QUAIL.QUAIL6"; I see QUAIL as an intersection in the arrival, and indeed it is the arrival name, but the transition to be used is not specified, nor is QUAIL a valid transition as best I can tell. Or is it? Are the valid transitions ONLY HGO, LAA, and TODDE, or all of those plus QUAIL, since the procedure is named QUAIL.QUAIL6? If QUAIL is not a valid transition (entry) to the STAR, then I presume the route I'm seeing displayed on FltPlan.com is incomplete and all of these questions are moot.
• In a WAAS GPS equipped plane, can you fly the WORTH5.CDS DP at, say, 8000 or 10000', if cleared by ATC and your filed altitude was that low? Terrain clearance isn't an issue, nor is NAV reception if you're using the GPS for guidance, but the DP shows "FL180" for the segment between SCABI and CDS, and "14000" for the segment inbound to SCABI.

 

[Everskyward]

From Childress VOR (CDS), which is the terminus of the Worth5 DP, there are no low altitude airways to join Either Lamar (LAA) or Hugo (HGO) VORs on the Quail 6 arrival. If the FltPlan.com "issued clearances" are to be believed as written, is DIRECT TO from CDS to LAA assumed?

Yes. You can file direct between waypoints without using an airway.

The FltPlan.com arrival is listed as "QUAIL.QUAIL6"; I see QUAIL as an intersection in the arrival, and indeed it is the arrival name, but the transition to be used is not specified, nor is QUAIL a valid transition as best I can tell. Or is it? Are the valid transitions ONLY HGO, LAA, and TODDE, or all of those plus QUAIL, since the procedure is named QUAIL.QUAIL6? If QUAIL is not a valid transition (entry) to the STAR, then I presume the route I'm seeing displayed on FltPlan.com is incomplete and all of these questions are moot.

You can file to start the arrival at QUAIL and they will usually give it to you that way unless they need you over one of the other fixes for traffic.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Yes. You can file direct between waypoints without using an airway.

You can file to start the arrival at QUAIL and they will usually give it to you that way unless they need you over one of the other fixes for traffic.

Great, thanks Mari!

And I think you can fly the WORTH5 at lower than charted... I know I've done it going south into Houston.

 

[COFlyBoy]

I thought the DPs don't really apply to us little guys. At least that was the topic of conversation with my CFII. Here in CO, it doesn't really matter, because we can't even get close to the charted alts in the DPs.

 

[taters]

I get fuz/010r.Grabe every time I head out of Dallas going north, I have recieved DP's many times in the the "little guy" bonanza

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I thought the DPs don't really apply to us little guys. At least that was the topic of conversation with my CFII. Here in CO, it doesn't really matter, because we can't even get close to the charted alts in the DPs.

I always get a DP departing Addison IFR anywhere. Going east, the first waypoint is one of the VORs near D/FW. Interesting, because when heading east, one would never go to that waypoint and approach has told me they REALLY wouldn't want me to if NORDO.

We are usually given instructions to turn to a heading after departure for radar vectors to the appropriate DP route. At some point, departure usually turns me to a heading which would intersect the DP published route and tells me to intercept and resume normal navigation, or to fly direct to a waypoint on the DP and resume normal navigation.

Altitudes are specified by departure; so, one wouldn't fly an altitude shown on the chart unless so directed. I hear departure say that on occasion, but not with me <g>.

The only experience I've had in the Denver area was when departing Rocky Mountain Metro and there was a DP, but they vectored me south east for quite a way until I could pick up my filed route. Still put the DP in the Garmin in case, but just flew vectors to my filed route each time I've left there.


Best,

Dave

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

DPs (departure procedures) apply to us little guys; I have been assigned them many times as a little guy and also multiple times at a lower altitude than charted. Keeps us out of the way of big (well, faster) guys, I suppose.

 

[Everskyward]

I'm not sure what they would give a "little guy" coming from that direction to KAPA. The chart on the QUAIL arrival says to expect QUAIL at 17,000' but that's only if you are going to KDEN. We always seems to get QUAIL at 12,000' going into KAPA. If you are slower you might get a lower altitude. Or they might have you bypass QUAIL completely and give you direct KAPA. I vaguely remember having a discussion with Denver TRACON once and they said that if your filed TAS is less than 210 knots (I think) that they would let you go direct rather than putting you on the arrival. Also an alternate route they will give you sometimes from the south is CHEBA BRK FQF KAPA. I know FQF is past KAPA but you never really get that far before they give you direct KAPA or CASSE (the outer marker).

 

[denverpilot]

You got me interested, since KAPA is home-base but be advised, I'm not Instrument rated.

Comments/Thoughts:
V81 seems to parallel your desired course to the Denver area, it's just further West. Would be nice if you could use that vs. doing your own obstacle clearance from CDS-LAA. Not a big deal, just a thought as I looked at the chart.

The problem becomes getting from V81 to the approach at KAPA. Obviously the "expect RADAR vectors" part factors in here when you're coming the other way from QUAIL... but if you go NORDO over in that area around HOHUM, you'd need a plan.

Most approaches into KAPA are going to be vectored over near the HOHUM intersection area, turned northbound, and cleared for the visual for 35R in good weather. Often "Direct CASSE" is heard from the south from the DEN TRACON after the get you within a few degrees of being aimed up the gun-barrel into the 35R approach.

Pay particular attention to the reception altitudes off of Black Forest, and the FDC NOTAMS in that area. They've moved some of the long-term NOTAMS about reception issues to the charts (note that numerous radials off of Black Forest are noted "unusable" on the north side).

The reason is that there's a ridgeline between the Denver Metro area and the Colorado Springs Metro areas which blocks the VOR below most altitudes you'd want to fly into KAPA at. Pattern altitude is 6885. The ILS/LOC 35R starts at 9000 over CASSE if you're flyin' the whole thing. Never heard anyone doing that... KAPA is usually too busy to authorize it. Vectors to final are far more common.

The "Monument Hill AWOS" depicted on the chart is up there close to the top of the ridge. The ridge often acts as a barrier for weather on either side of it, and/or as a place where wind forced upslope will drop precipitation in large quantities. The AWOS can give useful information about wind direction, cloud cover at the ridge top, etc. "Monument Hill weather" is often significantly different than COS or DEN weather.

You can easily have Monument Hill and the "Palmer Divide" (the name of the ridge line) socked in, and people are VFR at KAPA or at least shooting easy Visual approaches once the get past the ridge and down 1000' or so.

If you take a look at the VFR chart in that area too, there's a shelf of DEN's airspace overhanging KAPA and if you cancel IFR for some reason in that area, be aware that you need to basically shoot the gap between the terrain to the south, and the Class B to the north. It's not "tight" through there, but there's a lot of traffic stuffed into that VFR airspace on a good-weather day. It's pretty smart to be talking to DEN TRACON when you're doing that, there's a lot of north-south VFR traffic almost continuously in good weather between DEN and COS, crossing the Divide, and generally jammed into a small space.

Just thoughts. It'll be interesting to see what you decide to do.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

The only experience I've had in the Denver area was when departing Rocky Mountain Metro and there was a DP, but they vectored me south east for quite a way until I could pick up my filed route. Still put the DP in the Garmin in case, but just flew vectors to my filed route each time I've left there.

Jeffco is funny. I am always headed S from KBJC. But they always give you a North turn off 29(the typical runway). So, you start out going the wrong way. Usually they turn you back south, if they don't forget you, before the Wyoming border!
Anyway, after vectoring you around departures off DEN (the international apt) you get join the departure or direct to a wp down the road on that departure.

oops sorry, wp = waypoint
caps = airports

 

[TangoWhiskey]

DPs (departure procedures) apply to us little guys; I have been assigned them many times as a little guy and also multiple times at a lower altitude than charted. Keeps us out of the way of big (well, faster) guys, I suppose.

Yup, they sure do. If you don't want to be given one, you must put "NO SID/STAR" or "NO DP/STAR" in your flight plan comments area.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I thought the DPs don't really apply to us little guys. At least that was the topic of conversation with my CFII. Here in CO, it doesn't really matter, because we can't even get close to the charted alts in the DPs.

Need to read the notes to see if it says turbo jet or turbo prop only.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

You got me interested, since KAPA is home-base but be advised, I'm not Instrument rated.
<snip>
Just thoughts. It'll be interesting to see what you decide to do.

Thanks for all the good tips! I've always wondered why it was "Monument Hill AWOS" when the AWOS is at Kelly, the glider field. ???

 

[Ghery]

I thought the DPs don't really apply to us little guys. At least that was the topic of conversation with my CFII. Here in CO, it doesn't really matter, because we can't even get close to the charted alts in the DPs.

DPs (departure procedures) apply to us little guys; I have been assigned them many times as a little guy and also multiple times at a lower altitude than charted. Keeps us out of the way of big (well, faster) guys, I suppose.

Yelm 2 departure out of KOLM all the time. And that's flying a C-172. Often enough that this IR student has it memorized.

 

[COFlyBoy]

Yelm 2 departure out of KOLM all the time. And that's flying a C-172. Often enough that this IR student has it memorized.

Man, it looks like I'm gonna have to study the DPs.

We're going to do my first IFR x-country this week, so we'll look at departure procedures.

I'm glad this thread showed up, otherwise we might have just skipped the whole thing. I wonder if the no DP thing is Colorado specific. Maybe Denver approach doesn't like putting little planes on the departures. I looked at a few and I could see how a bug smasher could kinda gum up the whole system. A bunch of the DPs send you right over the Denver VOR to start, regardless of where you actually departed from.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Man, it looks like I'm gonna have to study the DPs.

We're going to do my first IFR x-country this week, so we'll look at departure procedures.

I'm glad this thread showed up, otherwise we might have just skipped the whole thing. I wonder if the no DP thing is Colorado specific. Maybe Denver approach doesn't like putting little planes on the departures. I looked at a few and I could see how a bug smasher could kinda gum up the whole system. A bunch of the DPs send you right over the Denver VOR to start, regardless of where you actually departed from.

A lot of the DFW ones initiate at Maverick (TTT), which is smack dab in the middle of DFW airport. It'll be the same at Denver as it is here; you won't actually fly over the VOR, you'll be vectored to join the radial that originates from that VOR, somewhere in the vicinity of your departure/satellite airport, then cleared on course.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Saturday morning armchair flying; playing 'what ifs' with a trip from Alliance Fort Worth (KAFW) to Centennial (KAPA) to see a friend.

FltPlan.com shows most common routing given to pilots under IFR is "WORTH5.CDS QUAIL.QUAIL6".

A number of questions arise. You can follow this route on SkyVector.com by entering this in the waypoints field, or clicking the link I provided for it: KAFW FERRA SCABI CDS LAA HGO QUAIL KAPA

Jeez, that looks like work. I just punched it right into ForeFlight as KAFW WORTH5.CDS QUAIL.QUAIL6 KAPA:

[*]From Childress VOR (CDS), which is the terminus of the Worth5 DP, there are no low altitude airways to join Either Lamar (LAA) or Hugo (HGO) VORs on the Quail 6 arrival. If the FltPlan.com "issued clearances" are to be believed as written, is DIRECT TO from CDS to LAA assumed?

Probably. If you're not equipped to fly direct *or* if you need an altitude that will require airways, you could probably file with the airways in the middle and still get "cleared as filed." In this case, I would go with KAFW WORTH5.PNH V81 TBE V169 TODDE.QUAIL6 KAPA at 10,000 if not IFR GPS equipped, and if I needed to go lower I'd have to go a bit more out of the way and do KAFW WORTH5.PNH V304 LAA.QUAIL6.KAPA. See my first comment to Nate's post below, though...

[*]The FltPlan.com arrival is listed as "QUAIL.QUAIL6"; I see QUAIL as an intersection in the arrival, and indeed it is the arrival name, but the transition to be used is not specified, nor is QUAIL a valid transition as best I can tell. Or is it? Are the valid transitions ONLY HGO, LAA, and TODDE, or all of those plus QUAIL, since the procedure is named QUAIL.QUAIL6? If QUAIL is not a valid transition (entry) to the STAR, then I presume the route I'm seeing displayed on FltPlan.com is incomplete and all of these questions are moot.

Page 4-16 from the Instrument Procedures Handbook says:

The STAR officially begins at the common NAVAID, intersection, or fix where all the various transitions to the arrival come together.

So, going straight to QUAIL is valid.

[*]In a WAAS GPS equipped plane, can you fly the WORTH5.CDS DP at, say, 8000 or 10000', if cleared by ATC and your filed altitude was that low? Terrain clearance isn't an issue, nor is NAV reception if you're using the GPS for guidance, but the DP shows "FL180" for the segment between SCABI and CDS, and "14000" for the segment inbound to SCABI.
[/LIST]

The DP states, "When entering controlled airspace, fly assigned heading and altitude to appropriate route." So, I would imagine that your clearance may include something to the effect of, "Fly heading 340 to join WORTH5 departure" or you may get an initial heading from tower and be given something like that when you contact departure.

V81 seems to parallel your desired course to the Denver area, it's just further West. Would be nice if you could use that vs. doing your own obstacle clearance from CDS-LAA. Not a big deal, just a thought as I looked at the chart.

There's nothing tough about "doing your own obstacle clearance" - Just fly at or above the OROCA's printed on the L-chart. That does bring up another issue, though - The OROCA near QUAIL is 12,100 feet, while all the OROCA's prior to that are below 10,000. So, it would be worth adding a few feet to the trip and filing CDS direct CONAL (or even HGO) to be able to stay down at 10,000.

The problem becomes getting from V81 to the approach at KAPA. Obviously the "expect RADAR vectors" part factors in here when you're coming the other way from QUAIL... but if you go NORDO over in that area around HOHUM, you'd need a plan.

Taking V81 to TBE and V169 north to TODDE and joining QUAIL6 from there is probably the best option. If you lose comm there, it's a simple matter of following standard lost comm procedures - In this case, it looks fairly simple - Assuming your timing is right, follow QUAIL6 to FQF and fly the published transition from there to the ILS 35R.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Man, it looks like I'm gonna have to study the DPs.

We're going to do my first IFR x-country this week, so we'll look at departure procedures.

I'm glad this thread showed up, otherwise we might have just skipped the whole thing. I wonder if the no DP thing is Colorado specific. Maybe Denver approach doesn't like putting little planes on the departures. I looked at a few and I could see how a bug smasher could kinda gum up the whole system. A bunch of the DPs send you right over the Denver VOR to start, regardless of where you actually departed from.

Couple of things:

I almost always get a DP when leaving KAPA IFR.

Look at the DPs -
many of them are beyond the capability of light airplanes, which is why they wouldn't be given

the departures themselves have a radar vector component. Look at the route description for any of them. The DENVER is a "pure" radar departure but check out the PLAINS departure (which you probably will be assigned if your ifr cross country takes to east say to Goodland). The decsriptive text starts with "Fly assigned heading and altitude for radar vectors to assigned transition." That's what you can really expect - radar vectors with an intercept to a leg of the procedure.

The DP legs are based on Denver VOR but the radar vector compopnent means that it is (almost) never flown that way (except in the case of lost comm)

Just a suggestion but you probably want to sit down with your CFII as part of your IFR planning lesson and go over this. It's not a mystery.

 

[taters]

A lot of the DFW ones initiate at Maverick (TTT), which is smack dab in the middle of DFW airport. It'll be the same at Denver as it is here; you won't actually fly over the VOR, you'll be vectored to join the radial that originates from that VOR, somewhere in the vicinity of your departure/satellite airport, then cleared on course.

This is really worth noting if you are loading the DP from a G430/530 or similar from the proc page. One could be easily fooled into thinking that you should navigate directly to the VOR or what ever the DP is based on . This is because the Garmin loads it that way. You need to "cursor highlight" the fix after the VOR on the FPL list and "menu/activate" to make the proper leg active in the GPS. This will correctly draw the procedure that you will intercept.

 

[COFlyBoy]

The DP legs are based on Denver VOR but the radar vector compopnent means that it is (almost) never flown that way (except in the case of lost comm)

Just a suggestion but you probably want to sit down with your CFII as part of your IFR planning lesson and go over this. It's not a mystery.

Yeah, we're going to have lunch together tomorrow to go over preflight planning. Then I'll get to plan the flight for Saturday (hopefully).

 

[midlifeflyer]

Yeah, we're going to have lunch together tomorrow to go over preflight planning. Then I'll get to plan the flight for Saturday (hopefully).

Sounds great!

Are you flying out of FTG or APA?

 

[W. Stewart]

A lot of the DFW ones initiate at Maverick (TTT), which is smack dab in the middle of DFW airport. It'll be the same at Denver as it is here; you won't actually fly over the VOR, you'll be vectored to join the radial that originates from that VOR, somewhere in the vicinity of your departure/satellite airport, then cleared on course.

DP's frequently do this, and it got me thinking about the repercussions of a lost comm scenario on ATC's end. I think that typically, one's takeoff clearance involves something like "runway heading to _,___, radar vectors to ___ (fix), . . ." If the plane loses comm ability prior to receiving those vectors, the pilot is expected to fly to the VOR from which the departure routes radiate, then fly the outbound leg.

My question is what would happen if, heaven forbid, ATC is the entity that loses comm ability (think some terrorist action like "Die Hard II", but instead of lowering the glideslope [not really possible], taking out the transmitter? Would not multiple aircraft (taking off from multiple runways in the area) converge on the central VOR?

I do hope that there are adequate back up transmitters, or that the Big Sky/multiple altitudes theory works.

Wells

 

[Dave Siciliano]

My question is what would happen if, heaven forbid, ATC is the entity that loses comm ability (think some terrorist action like "Die Hard II", but instead of lowering the glideslope [not really possible], taking out the transmitter? Would not multiple aircraft (taking off from multiple runways in the area) converge on the central VOR?

I do hope that there are adequate back up transmitters, or that the Big Sky/multiple altitudes theory works.

Wells

If you were NORDO, no matter which party is the cause, you'd fly your last clearance. That should include the vectors to an intersection as you stated. No vectors, you would fly the cleared route as well as you could. Hopefully, VMC is nearby and you know enough to stay clear of obstacles.

Best,

Dave

 

[Ted]

If you were NORDO, no matter which party is the cause, you'd fly your last clearance. That should include the vectors to an intersection as you stated. No vectors, you would fly the cleared route as well as you could. Hopefully, VMC is nearby and you know enough to stay clear of obstacles.

In this case, it's nice if you know the area and what they'll do, which you'll get if you've flown in the area several times before. Of course, if you haven't, well... just follow your clearance as best you can.