Denver Pilots: New ground procedures for run-ups at KAPA

denverpilot

denverpilot

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There's now white-dashed-line painted north and south run-up areas at KAPA, and they've added to their ground procedures that you must notify ground control of...

- Direction of flight <- Already in place before this.
- Whether or not you need a run-up <- The new thing.

And of course, they still have the special procedure to notify ground when ready for departure... they'll switch you to Tower usually telling you "Monitor Tower", thus you're not to transmit -- after clearing you to the hold-short line or behind another departing aircraft.

Just a heads up... it's all on the ATIS. Listen carefully. :)
 
Totalitarian in control.

Most places, you just automatically swith to tower when you are #1 or next in line.
Then call them. N98189, #1 Rwy 7 @ Golf
 
BillTIZ said:
Totalitarian in control.

Most places, you just automatically swith to tower when you are #1 or next in line.
Then call them. N98189, #1 Rwy 7 @ Golf
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KAPA has had that other procedure for something like 20 years. I think it was instituted at that time because people would jockey for position at the hold line then someone would call ready from in back where they couldn't get access to the runway. It wasn't really apparent by looking who was number one. There was a lot of small airplane traffic in those days. Now it is more of a combination of small and larger but it's still pretty busy at times. Personally I think their procedure works pretty well, at least compared to what it was like before.
 
Yeah it works fine. Tower controller already has a strip in front of 'em with your direction of flight and they know where you're at in the conga line if one exists.

The new part is the designated run-up area and the requirement to tell them if you need to use it.

They're holding a WINGS approved annual "Tower chat" session next week. I'll be attending. There's usually good info at those about what kinda screw-ups us pilots all are. ;) ;) ;)
 
Did you also notice that you are now being cleared to "the Runway 17L runup area" rather than to "Runway 17L"?
 
Everskyward said:
KAPA has had that other procedure for something like 20 years. I think it was instituted at that time because people would jockey for position at the hold line then someone would call ready from in back where they couldn't get access to the runway. It wasn't really apparent by looking who was number one. There was a lot of small airplane traffic in those days. Now it is more of a combination of small and larger but it's still pretty busy at times. Personally I think their procedure works pretty well, at least compared to what it was like before.
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Interesting. I thought it was simply a way to further separate the duties of Tower and Ground at a busy non-radar airport so that Tower could concentrate on aircraft while in the air and not need to respond to people who were still on the ground until Tower was ready to deal with them.

btw, there are at least 3 other airports that use the contact-ground-not-tower procedure.
 
At other places they just ask "are you going to need a runup" during taxi if they care. This just formalizes the procedure at a busy airport. I don't know what the controversy is.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Interesting. I thought it was simply a way to further separate the duties of Tower and Ground at a busy non-radar airport so that Tower could concentrate on aircraft while in the air and not need to respond to people who were still on the ground until Tower was ready to deal with them.
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I'm sure that could have been part of the reason for the change too but I remember the days when airplanes tried to position themselves at the front thereby blocking airplanes behind them. That mostly went away with the new procedure. I can't remember if I was told one thing or another at the time although I vaguely recall being told a reason. That was a long time ago.
 
No controversy here. Just sharing.

Did my call-up to ground this morning with the radio turned down and stomped some guy doing an IFR release update.

Oops. Shame on me. :(

Then did the call again and the poor controller missed half of it anyway. Got quizzed. Ha. Sigh.

Headed back from KGXY soon. Have to avoid the stadium TFR going home...
 
denverpilot said:
Yeah it works fine. Tower controller already has a strip in front of 'em with your direction of flight and they know where you're at in the conga line if one exists.

The new part is the designated run-up area and the requirement to tell them if you need to use it.

They're holding a WINGS approved annual "Tower chat" session next week. I'll be attending. There's usually good info at those about what kinda screw-ups us pilots all are. ;) ;) ;)
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Understood that some towers have different call procedures. Most pilots know where they are in the conga line, and some finish their run ups sooner than others and move from run-up area to the hold line as they are ready.

Don't forget to take notes on tower scew ups for the Wings meeting. They cause problems too.
 
BillTIZ said:
Understood that some towers have different call procedures. Most pilots know where they are in the conga line, and some finish their run ups sooner than others and move from run-up area to the hold line as they are ready.
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Not when there's a mix of bizjets & spam cans. Half the time the jets don't even notice there's a spam can in front of them. Gotta remember that APA is one of the top 3 busiest GA airports in the country. Conga lines just don't work that well at APA. Don't know about you, but I sure don't like sitting behind a Very Large bizjet or 3. Not really that fond of jet fuel fumes.
 
cbmontgo said:
Is there a new diagram that shows where these areas are?

It has been about 2 weeks since I flew out of APA; somehow didn't catch this about the runup areas.

Edit: I think this is it:

http://www.centennialairport.com/PDF/Runupareas.pdf
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Aint any different that it has been for years, other than the runup at B4. Has B4 been a runup in the past? Unless the east runway (17L/35R) is closed, the west runway (17R/35L) is usually relegated to the student T&Gs and such, and all traffic initially departs on the east runway. Of course for us familiar with the Denver area, we prefer 10/28 to avoid the traffic jams.
 
I did two T&Gs on 35L today then asked for 10 for a full-stop since our hangar is down there in Area Hotel.

No one was around so they gave me a left turn off of 35L and I was off by C2. That was fun. Could'a flown down to C3 closer to our hangar but C2 is a fun challenge.

I kinda tried to make it a continuous left turn pretty much from liftoff off of 35L when the controller said, "I'll call your base"...

Oh okay, ruin all the fun. ;-) He read my mind. Heh. I'll square it up...

I think that dude likes watching me play with the STOL kit. ;-)
 
No, the other link is to an airport map with the current run-up areas depicted. Your PDF actually seems to have slightly newer/different information.

It will be interesting next week at the annual Tower talk meeting to see what they cover about this.

Today I just did my run-up in my hangar alley and then said "negative run-up" to the Ground position controller. Seemed easier.

Especially since they just re-paved and the never-ending disintegrating asphalt FOD is gone in front of our hangar and no one else was around in the row today or any close-by doors open.

The repaving isn't going to last the winter, though. Already spots where it's breaking up. Not very high quality but at least it's better.
 
The runup areas are in "about" the same location. The difference is that they are set off with broken white lines. In some cases, like at the A-1 run-up area, the designated area is a bit smaller, holding only 2-3 aircraft at a time, to leave the rest of the area open. It's intended to be temporary, with new work slated for 2012.

http://www.ia-kapa.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/APA-Run-Up.pdf

Yesterday, I was one of three aircraft in the A-1 run-up area. Ground informed the next airplane calling that the run-up area was full and to find somewhere on the ramp or wait.
 
denverpilot said:
No, the other link is to an airport map with the current run-up areas depicted. Your PDF actually seems to have slightly newer/different information.

It will be interesting next week at the annual Tower talk meeting to see what they cover about this.
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You must be talking about this.

http://www.faasafety.gov/SPANS/event_details.aspx?eid=40780

FAA Safety Team | Safer Skies Through Education
You have asked us to notify you when a seminar is scheduled that meets your criteria. The following seminar may be of interest to you:

"It's our Annual Centennial Tower Fireside Chat!"
Topic: Once again we get to find out what our Centennial Tower Controllers have been up to.
On Monday, October 17, 2011 at 6:00 PM
Location:
Ramada Hotel / Centennial Airport
7770 South Peoria Street

Englewood, CO 80112
Select Number:
NM0340780

Description:
Tonight we get to talk once again with the Centennial Tower Controllers. Find out about the latest changes to radio communications and surface movement at Centennial Airport, as well as the impending new run-up areas! As always, avoiding runway incursions and surface deviations will be a key topic of the night.

To view further details and registration information for this seminar, click here.

The sponsor for this seminar is: Centennial Airport ATCT & the FAASTeam

The following credit(s) are available for the WINGS/AMT Programs:

Basic Knowledge 3 - 1 credit

Click here to view the WINGS help page
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midlifeflyer said:
The runup areas are in "about" the same location. The difference is that they are set off with broken white lines. In some cases, like at the A-1 run-up area, the designated area is a bit smaller, holding only 2-3 aircraft at a time, to leave the rest of the area open. It's intended to be temporary, with new work slated for 2012.

http://www.ia-kapa.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/APA-Run-Up.pdf

Yesterday, I was one of three aircraft in the A-1 run-up area. Ground informed the next airplane calling that the run-up area was full and to find somewhere on the ramp or wait.
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What's the new work going to be/do/whatever?
 
midlifeflyer said:
Yesterday, I was one of three aircraft in the A-1 run-up area. Ground informed the next airplane calling that the run-up area was full and to find somewhere on the ramp or wait.
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One of those 3 won't depart before the 4th airplane can taxi that far to get there?

In regard to another post. I'm not keen on a run-up in the hanger row. How do you know you are alone? That someone did not open their doors behind you after you climbed in the plane?

I do know that some airports have local quiet procedures that force run-ups in certain areas. For a while our tower would direct everyone to Rwy 7 run-up area and then direct taxi to Rwy 30L for departure. Either Rwy 30 area was full, or noise to surrounding houses, or construction on an adjacent ramp.

Rwy 7 area is also for Rwy 12R, they want you ready to go when you cross Rwy 7 for Rwy 12R, there is only room for 3 planes to wait between the runways with no run-up.
 
BillTIZ said:
One of those 3 won't depart before the 4th airplane can taxi that far to get there?
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Sometimes yes and sometimes No. We're talking about an airport that is still probably one of the 5 busiest (at one time it was second only to KVNY) GA-only airports in the country. I've seen 6-8 airplanes in a run-up area there. The day I heard it, it was Sunday at about 11:30 am. Sunday mornings are not that busy and there was still a wait.

One thing that is helpful is that there are large, empty ramp areas where aircraft can run-up before taxiing to the runway without interfering with someone else. We used that for a while during some construction when both taxiway and runway access was a bit limited. Might make sense to use it more often. There's an added benefit also - find a problem and you have a shorter taxi back to the hangar or tiedown.
 
So when contacting ground do you just say "runup needed" after saying direction of flight? Guess I better brush up since I am flying out of there again next week. The 17L and 17R areas are the same, but the 10/28 new runup area looks to be in an odd area, especially if you are using Rwy 10 and taxiing from the east ramp.

Seems like this may lead to more runups at the hangars, and I am not sure that this is considered "okay" or not.
 
cbmontgo said:
So when contacting ground do you just say "runup needed" after saying direction of flight?
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Currently the ATIS asks you to say if a run-up is needed. But if you don't say anything, they ask whether you need one. So, what I'm doing is to let Ground know either way, "Run-up needed" or "Run-up complete" would do the trick just fine.

Seems like this may lead to more runups at the hangars, and I am not sure that this is considered "okay" or not.
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It's fine so long as you don't blow people and things over. There's plenty of room on most of the ramps to be able to complete your run-up before taxi if that's your preference. This isn't the first time - just a few years ago, they were working on 17L/35R and only using the parallel. With less available space, they were asking everyone to complete run-ups before contacting Ground for taxi.

This is one of those new things that pilots always complain about but is really not all that complicated.
 
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