Looking at a CO nat'l parks trip. Thinking of flying into Denver area to start at Rocky Mountain, then driving the rest. FNL vs BJC? Other suggestions?
Denver area airports (CO trip planning)
- Thread starter Jim K
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I’ve been away so long, I can’t be of much tactical help. I will say that Estes is the eastern gateway and as close to there as possible would be my goal, even if that means landing north of town.
Love RMNP, and if you want to see the western side without driving around, keep an eye on the opening date for Trail Ridge Road. Bring winter weather gear thru June in my experience.
Happy to share more if you have specific things you want to see.
ETA: if you’re going to include Mesa Verde, you’ll want to fly instead of drive from RMNP. Also, don’t discount Black Canyon of the Gunnison if you’re going south.
Love RMNP, and if you want to see the western side without driving around, keep an eye on the opening date for Trail Ridge Road. Bring winter weather gear thru June in my experience.
Happy to share more if you have specific things you want to see.
ETA: if you’re going to include Mesa Verde, you’ll want to fly instead of drive from RMNP. Also, don’t discount Black Canyon of the Gunnison if you’re going south.
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I’ve been away for over a dozen years now, but for the park area, I’d go with FNL or LMO over BJC. But I’d also check about their rental car options.
My "want-to-do" list includes:
RMNP
Black canyon
Mesa Verde
Great sand dunes
Leadville
Durango & silverton RR
Probably only going to be a 7 day trip, so we're not going to make all of them. It'll be in August, and we'll be pretty heavy, so I'm not real excited about 10,500 mountain passes. Also, we'll be on a schedule, so I don't want to tempt the weather gods, and I hear the roads out there are a big part of the experience, hence the plan to park the plane for a week. Still trying to get a handle on how much we can do in one trip. I was a little surprised when I figured out Denver is closer than Florida, so if we miss something we can go back. Hot & heavy probably rules out Leadville. I think the kids would like sand sledding.
Other idea welcome.
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Great Sand Dunes is an awesome experience, although late spring is probably the best as the meltdown floods Medano Creek and produces this.
I will mention, don't mess with the summer mountains in a piston without some experience. And even on a good day, your family will not enjoy the afternoon turbulence.
I will mention, don't mess with the summer mountains in a piston without some experience. And even on a good day, your family will not enjoy the afternoon turbulence.
Yeah, we did Cody and Jackson WY in '22, but that was not quite as high, it was earlier in the year, and we were lighter. We also were in the northern AZ, southern UT area in '24 and learned the hard way about the "don't fly in the afternoon" rule.
Jim Carpenter
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I'd vote for FNL. Great FBO, good service, several rental car options, and closest to RMNP.
These 3 seem more like a Four Corners or Moab trip to me. KMTJ (Black Canyon) KCEZ (Mesa Verde) and KCNY (Moab) are only 40 minutes from each other in a piston single (versus 3 hours in a car).
Leaning towards dropping Mesa Verde and picking it up when we come back to get Canyonlands, Cap. Reef, and Arches. We have a 4th grader this year, so we get a free parks pass, which is part of the reason to try to hit multiple ones. This trip is short on time though, so some things will have to get left out.
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Does that pass include national preserves? Bandelier National Monument is on my short list to hit up. Fascinating what people were able to do. Plus Los Alamos and Oppenheimer museum is close by
No.. concentrating on the parks for now with the understanding that I'm missing a bunch of cool stuff. I do try to find other things in the area, but there's a LOT to see in this country.
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BTW, Canyonlands is a great airport to fly into. Flew there three times (in three different types of singles) when we lived in Denver. The scenery is to die for. If you have the time, go for the Moab Music Festival. It tends to be around Labor Day so the weather is about as perfect as it gets.
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If you're flying into the Denver area and just renting a car for a week, my choice would be Front Range (cough) Colorado Air and Space Port. Yes, it's on the "wrong" side of town, but they've got excellent service and great prices. My first time there was a great experience and it's become my go-to for overnights in that area because they continue to be that way every time I'm there.
FWIW, I once took off from LXV in late summer when the density altitude was 12,200 feet. It roughly triples the normal takeoff roll you'll see in the midwest.
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I honestly can't imagine choosing CFO when there are good choices on the "right" side of town. @murphey, what do you think?
Me? Definitely something on the west side. Saves 30-60 min EACH WAY slogging thru I-70 traffic thru town.
I'd give spouse and child the car for a day (Denver Zoo is fun, the Nature & Science museum is right next door), pick up a mountain instructor and get your certificate for landing at Leadville.
I'd give spouse and child the car for a day (Denver Zoo is fun, the Nature & Science museum is right next door), pick up a mountain instructor and get your certificate for landing at Leadville.
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You pay for it, though. Maybe I'm just a cheapskate.
Jim: What will you be flying?You pay for it, though. Maybe I'm just a cheapskate.
Advantage of KCFO:
No need to navigate around Class B or the multiple airports with lots of flight schools and lots of students on the weekends (KBJC, KLMO, KEIK, KBOU, KFNL, KGXY)
Disadvantage of KCFO:
That I-70 drive thru town is horrible during the weekday. And on weekends when everyone goes to the mountains and then comes back from the mountains.
Price of fuel isn't an issue right now. Everyone's gone up.
Really - you want to be on the west side.
I work downtown Denver which is midway between CFO and the hills. The rare times I need to get to CFO (mostly for night currency) it's an hour. Double that to get between CFO and the hills.
One option - park at CFO, get a car and stay at a hotel on the west side. Benefits of both options.
If you're using Foreflight, head to the Colorado Pilots Assoc website and download the many practice areas and freqs for reference:
Colorado Flight Review Practice Areas | CPA
Designated practice areas for flight reviews and training in Colorado: safe locations for maneuvers away from congested airspace.
coloradopilots.org
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Maybe, but I often wonder about that. Not about this particular trip, but when I look at an airport for a multi-day stay, I try to assess the value of the full package, For me "value" includes things like time, convenience, access, as well as cost. Even on the purely cost end, I've sometimes found the more expensive airport means less cost for car rental. I did a trip a few years ago where I chose a Class C over a smaller airport because, when I considered car rental costs, the Class C was actually cheaper.You pay for it, though. Maybe I'm just a cheapskate.
A quick comparison between CFO and FNL tells me that you are dealing with Enterprise at CFO. FNL is aiming for the jets, so they have Go! Rentals. Not always the case, but the last airport where I looked at GO!, they beat my discounted member pricing, including my old corporate account National Emerald, something I'd never seen before anywhere.
Seriously? I didn't even price Go, because last time I did they more than double any other option. At the moment I'm looking at a Turo car at FNL...3 row SUV for $80/day.
I'll look into CFO as I value @flyingcheesehead's opinion, but adding an hour to my drive time is a big negative in my mind. I fly mainly because I hate driving. BJC is $25/day parking. I haven't called FNL yet, but usually independents are cheaper... their gas is higher though, which is a bad sign.
My Lance. Which is NA, and why I'll be parking the plane and driving. Also why ramps fees and rental car availability/cost are big players. In the grand scheme though, it's a pretty small part of the trip.
I probably don’t hate driving as much as Jim, but I’m still in the same camp as far as mindset. I’d want to make the most of my time on a family vacation and that precludes sitting in traffic. Maybe if I were alone or the purpose of the trip were something else I’d try to optimize cost a little more, but not in this case.
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Seriously. It surprised the heck out of me.
Is Pikes peak worth the drive? Afraid it will be anticlimactic after all the other stuff, and it's not like seeing the world from 14,000' is exactly novel for us.
The cog railroad is running to the top of PikesPeak.
No and not just because I’ve driven it, taken the train up, and hiked it via Barr Trail. Even with the new visitor center.
The round trip from the entrance gate will take 2+ hours before you spend however much time at the new (and still small) visitor’s center.
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Probably not. OTOH I can tell you that flying past Pikes Peak at around 12,000’ on the west side is gorgeous.
MarkB
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No. RMNP is way more impressive. I would choose FNL vs. BJC just to stay out of the traffic and not have to deal with the Bravo. I would assume fees are cheaper too.
Well, we did the thing. To answer the original question, we used FNL. I got a bit of a nasty surprise though....at some point between the time I did my planning and when we left, they decided to tear up a bit over half of their runway, leaving 3750' available, which sounds like plenty until your realize they're at 5020' MSL, and it was 102 F when we landed. Of course landing was no big deal, but I was sweating (literally, it was insanely hot out there) it all week. High was forecast to be 96 today, but we made it to the airport at 0830 and it was 72 when we left. It was still tight, but I was at least 50' AGL by the time I passed the construction equipment. 11 hours on the Hobbs; less than 5 in the air today with nice tailwinds. We stopped in Beatrice, NE for Runza and gas both ways.
FNL was awesome. Quiet obviously with the shortened runway. They only charged $8/day parking. I didn't buy any of the $8.50 gas because I was trying to keep weight down, and because holy **** that's expensive. Wound up getting a Turo delivered right to the airport, which worked out well.
We did two days at RMNP, a few hours at Black Canyon of the Gunnison, one day at Mesa Verde, and made it out to Great Sand Dune in an evening after it cooled off. 8 days, 1500 miles of driving, although, the driving was some of the most scenic parts. I didn't know CO was so varied. The eastern half looks like just Nebraska, the NW looks about like I expected, and the south is definitely Southwest. I guess that all should've been fairly obvious, but I was expecting the whole state to be RMNP. The desert south/SW portion was the biggest surprise to me.
Definitely made a list to go back. I'm thinking next time it'll be a gold mines and scenic railroads focus. I have to go back at some point to get Leadville anyway. We did drive up to the airport, but obviously you gotta land (and takeoff again) there. No way I could've done it with this heat (and weight).
It was fun driving through all the towns I've always heard of...Estes Park, Aspen, Leadville, Durango, Breckinridge. I was planning to ride the alpine coaster at Breck until I found out it was $50 a head. Noped out of that one and rode the free gondola back down.
One other thing i didn't expect....I actually missed the humidity. It was SO dry all week. Made the heat more tolerable, but my nose and mouth felt like a dried out sponge. It actually felt good to get out into the humid air in Nebraska. Never did really acclimate to the altitude either...modest hikes winded us, even at the end of the week. How long does it take to get used the the thin air?
FNL was awesome. Quiet obviously with the shortened runway. They only charged $8/day parking. I didn't buy any of the $8.50 gas because I was trying to keep weight down, and because holy **** that's expensive. Wound up getting a Turo delivered right to the airport, which worked out well.
We did two days at RMNP, a few hours at Black Canyon of the Gunnison, one day at Mesa Verde, and made it out to Great Sand Dune in an evening after it cooled off. 8 days, 1500 miles of driving, although, the driving was some of the most scenic parts. I didn't know CO was so varied. The eastern half looks like just Nebraska, the NW looks about like I expected, and the south is definitely Southwest. I guess that all should've been fairly obvious, but I was expecting the whole state to be RMNP. The desert south/SW portion was the biggest surprise to me.
Definitely made a list to go back. I'm thinking next time it'll be a gold mines and scenic railroads focus. I have to go back at some point to get Leadville anyway. We did drive up to the airport, but obviously you gotta land (and takeoff again) there. No way I could've done it with this heat (and weight).
It was fun driving through all the towns I've always heard of...Estes Park, Aspen, Leadville, Durango, Breckinridge. I was planning to ride the alpine coaster at Breck until I found out it was $50 a head. Noped out of that one and rode the free gondola back down.
One other thing i didn't expect....I actually missed the humidity. It was SO dry all week. Made the heat more tolerable, but my nose and mouth felt like a dried out sponge. It actually felt good to get out into the humid air in Nebraska. Never did really acclimate to the altitude either...modest hikes winded us, even at the end of the week. How long does it take to get used the the thin air?
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Lawson_Stone
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I literally just got back from 2 weeks (all driving) in Colorado and Utah. We spent a week in Alma, CO which is just below Breckinridge, and found hiking and other events for myt 9 grandchildren and 3 adult kids and spouses. Then my wife and I drove to Moab, UT for Arches and Canyonlands, and then to Monument Valley. The whole time I had FltPlnGo up looking at airports and fantasizing about flying. This whole trip could have been flown and would have been fun... I just needed a plane... and, well, the PPL...
flyingcheesehead
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Are you sure? I took off from there once with my personal record 12,200 foot density altitude, in a normally aspirated 182. It'd eat up a lot of runway but I'd think a Lance should be able to do that just fine, especially if you got off FNL's shortened runway. Leadville's up high, but the runway is long and unobstructed, and there's a huge, wide, flat-bottomed valley that you can climb in for as long as you want.
Absolutely! This is why I don't like flying high without pressurization, even though the Mooney's got a factory O2 system - odd for a normally aspirated plane, but occasionally useful. Within about a half hour, my sinuses are dried out and on fire.
I added a whole-house humidifier to our HVAC system when we replaced it several years ago, makes winter much more tolerable.
Now, I could do with less humidity than we have during the summer, but when you get rid of most of it, it's definitely too dry. I'm sure you can acclimate to that too, since some people live in those places, but I don't know how long that would take for those of us who have lived near water our whole lives.
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You could join me this weekend... Flying into APA for the mountain flying course Friday. Ground Saturday. Hopefully xc Sunday weather permitting.
My nose does get dry when I'm in new Mexico. I don't really feel the thin air unless I'm really trying to catch up to a herd or steep mountain in a hurry
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I didn't run the numbers. It probably could've been done early in the morning. The climb rate gets real anemic above 10K DA when she's loaded up. I think it'd be a lot more fun when it's just Teresa & I and we're a lot lighter. We did drive up there. I was surprised how wide open it was. I was also surprised that it's higher than the town, but thinking about it, I suppose it gives you a guaranteed 50' AGL as long as you can get airborne.
flyingcheesehead
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Yup. If you're off the ground and flying fast enough to keep flying out of ground effect, you'll be OK there.
I had to look at my performance charts for comparison - It looks like at 10,000 feet pressure altitude, 40ºC (104ºF), max gross with no headwind I should be off in 4000 feet... And I can't even get out of 6Y9 except solo at min fuel.
my performance charts don't go that high. Above about 7000' DA you're on your own. I've had good luck with the Koch chart, and someone built a pa-32r-300 performance calculator online that works really well: https://www.piperperftools.com . My service ceiling is supposed to be 15,400, but in my experience it's more like 14, and I'd like to have a little more margin than a 50'/min climb.
flyingcheesehead
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Wow! I expected your ceiling to be higher than that, given your plane's "if it fits, it flies" reputation.
AlphaPilotFlyer
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Also, there is actually an alligator and crocodile reserve there, in the middle of the Rockies ! It’s built around a hot spring and a great stop, highly recommend it.
Lawson_Stone
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Strangely, the Piper Cherokee 6-260 can lift even more, but has a maximum service ceiling of about 12,000 ft.