Dawdling pilot= go around

Ghery said:
Not to change the subject (once again), but if this is true, why does our club prohibit using anything other than paved runways?
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Because your club doesn't trust its pilots to check conditions and maintain soft-field proficiency?
 
Rotor&Wing said:
It is useful. As an example in the Air Carrier world we use "Reduced Takeoff Minimums" under OpSpecs (C078) which allowed us to depart with 500/500/500 RVR (Runway Visual Range). Of course we had to have runway centerline lights, runway edge lights, etc operating.
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...and, I should think, in view, hence the ATP PTS standard of up to 1/4 mile vis for this task in the sim, and up to 100 feet before donning the hood in the plane.
 
TMetzinger said:
I think there's a world of difference between being able to make out a centerline stripe or two ahead and the edge markings and lighting (I've taken off in conditions like those), and not seeing anything at all.
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I agree. I do 500 RVR takeoffs in the sim and you can see the centerline lighting all the way up until the time you rotate.

On the other hand I can vaguely remember doing a hooded takeoff or two back in the day. I don't remember much about them except I know that we didn't go off the runway. Of course there is some degree of risk but on a scale of 1 to 10 where taking off in your small airplane in the mountains in the snow is a 10, doing a hooded takeoff might be a 1.
 
Ron Levy said:
Because your club doesn't trust its pilots to check conditions and maintain soft-field proficiency?
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We have an annual check ride for the club that includes soft field operations. Just done on pavement. It isn't quite the same thing, I know.
 
Everskyward said:
On the other hand I can vaguely remember doing a hooded takeoff or two back in the day. I don't remember much about them except I know that we didn't go off the runway. Of course there is some degree of risk but on a scale of 1 to 10 where taking off in your small airplane in the mountains in the snow is a 10, doing a hooded takeoff might be a 1.
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I guess some folks think it's a good idea to demonstrate something for the purpose of convincing the trainee never to try it. I'm just not one of those folks. I figure if it's dumb to do for real something that no situation would ever require you to actually do (incoming Hovitos Indians notwithstanding), it's equally dumb to do that something in training. YMMV.
 
Ron Levy said:
I guess some folks think it's a good idea to demonstrate something for the purpose of convincing the trainee never to try it. I'm just not one of those folks. I figure if it's dumb to do for real something that no situation would ever require you to actually do (incoming Hovitos Indians notwithstanding), it's equally dumb to do that something in training. YMMV.
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In training, one intentionally stalls the aircraft. In CFI training, one intentionally spins the aircraft. Furthermore, both are actually allowed to progress to the point of a full stall or full spin. Can you tell me when, outside of training or for the sake of having fun, you would intentionally do either of those?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
In training, one intentionally stalls the aircraft. In CFI training, one intentionally spins the aircraft. Furthermore, both are actually allowed to progress to the point of a full stall or full spin. Can you tell me when, outside of training or for the sake of having fun, you would intentionally do either of those?
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Well, the difference, IMO is that in the stalls and spins scenario, they are done so students/CFIs know what conditions lead up to the event, know what they feel like, and know how to prevent them from happening UNINTENTIONALLY.

It is hard to UNINTENTIONALLY do a 0/0 takeoff. :wink2:
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Well, the difference, IMO is that in the stalls and spins scenario, they are done so students/CFIs know what conditions lead up to the event, know what they feel like, and know how to prevent them from happening UNINTENTIONALLY.

It is hard to UNINTENTIONALLY do a 0/0 takeoff. :wink2:
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In both cases you're ultimately practicing something you're not intending on doing because of the peripheral value learned, not because you're intending on going out and performing the actual maneuver. That's my point. :)
 
Ted DuPuis said:
In both cases you're ultimately practicing something you're not intending on doing because of the peripheral value learned, not because you're intending on going out and performing the actual maneuver. That's my point. :)
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To each his own, but I don't see the peripheral value in doing 0/0 takeoffs.
 
dmccormack said:
Because this usually happens (names removed but maybe you'll figure out who is in what role):

  • "And so I like to land on grass..."
  • "Go ahead, but I flew with the Wright Brothers and they preferred sand. And everyone in the FAA, TSA, CIA, NSA, GSA, DHS, NGB, PETA, NBC, CBS, CNN, and XYZ thinks it's stupid."
  • "Oh yeah? Well I have thirty for gazillion grass takeoffs and landings!"
  • "Well, you're a lucky idiot, but the owner of the FAA said 'No way!" So there."
  • "Here we go again -- Mister Perfection trots out his contacts. :rolleyes2:"
  • "I flew with the Wright Brothers. They preferred sand. Everyone in the FAA, TSA, CIA, NSA, GSA, DHS, NGB, PETA, NBC, CBS, CNN, and XYZ thinks it's stupid."
  • "I've done an analysis on grass coefficient of friction and {rest deleted for brevity] and I love the DA-40!! :D"
  • "My Comanche lands on grass in floods. And in Snow. And in Molten Lava. You're all wussies."
  • "My seven hundred year old airplane lands on grass -- crunchy, wet, green, brown, and legal -- every day. And twice on Sundays."
  • "Oh really? Have you flown with the Wright Brothers? They preferred sand. Ask everyone in the FAA, TSA, CIA, NSA, GSA, DHS, NGB, PETA, NBC, CBS, CNN, and XYZ what they think -- But don't ask, because they will say 'It's stupid.'"
  • "Grass landings are fine -- but in Texas we prefer mesquite."
  • "I have owned airlines, flown the Space Shuttle, and Mister Sikorsky swam in my pool. [Name deleted] is an idiot. I am right. That is all."
  • "So there I was, flying 13 inches AGL during the normal August frost when all of a sudden I saw a goose. Here are pictures of the goose:"
  • "The Wright Brothers preferred sand. I've logged every minute of IMC in coach and so I have more hours in the air than alive. Go ahead and be stupid -- just don't call me when you run into a log truck crossing the runway."
  • "I can't wait until Gastons!"
  • "I've logged 863 hours in the past month flying from Egypt to Missouri back to Antarctica and then Cozumel on the way to Cleveland. I'm carrying 323 dogs and they are getting tired. I use my twin to mow the grass because I don't have time for that sort of thing. I invented a new airfoil in my free time. And a perpetual motion machine. And shot fifteen 0/0 approaches into Philly. In a row."
  • "I paid for the servers so I say grass is fine. -- it's a landing, isn't it? Here is my latest gun."
  • "Can someone give me a ride to Gaston's? For free?"
  • "I'm in Lower Bagonnellatoonoo and flew [names removed]'s personal 767 here for their honeymoon. Yeah, had her. And I always land on grass. Never anything harder because it makes depth perception poor."
  • "Nancy Pelosi never, ever landed on grass: www.leftieblogosphere.org/moveon/colbert/foxisbad.jsp George Bush banned grass. Why are we afraid of grass? Is there a terrorist behind every blade?"
  • "The MC has closed this thread"
  • "Why? This is America -- or isn't it? Wii and Nintendo. Land of the Free! I salute every day! Come to my hotel. Don't ask for the car."
  • "So you think you're tough stuff because you land on grass? Big deal... ."
  • "I hand built an entire grass runway and supercharged it with nitrous methane hydrospheric acid."
  • "Oh really? Ask everyone in the FAA, TSA, CIA, NSA, GSA, DHS, NGB, PETA, NBC, CBS, CNN, and XYZ what they think -- But don't ask, because they will say 'It's stupid.' nitrous methane hydropsheric acid (moron!) reduces the friction coefficient by .0001%!"
  • "Good grief. As we all know:
    d231484d66aff48971fd3908498fe96b.png
    Therefore:
    fsta.gif
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That there is funny, I don't care who you are!:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
Ron Levy said:
You still haven't answered the question of what you'd do.
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And you have yet to demonstrate you understand the difference between "training" and "checking".

Ron Levy said:
And, to answer one of Dan's comments, what would you do if an applicant complained about an examiner requiring a hooded takeoff on an IR practical test?
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See Order 8900.1 and 8900.2
 
It does land in molten lava!

Oh, and I've done a 0 vis take off. Yawn!

(It was a fall morning, and the aiport was fogged in due to it's proximity to the river. the drive there was clear up to a 1/4 mile from the airport. I had a funeral to attend out of state, and I sat around for a bit waiting for the fog to lift/burn, but it didn't. I heard some guys over head and on unicom saying they couldn't see through the fog to see where the runway was. Finally hit the "must leave time" and taxiied out to the runway. I couldn't see to the next stripe on t/o roll, but could see to the runway edge. I just kept the same distance to the edge of the runway, and went. I figured since the guys couldn't land I wasn't going to have to worry about anyone landing on me while departing. As soon as we rotated, we were out of the fog. It was dense, but not very deep - maybe 25'. On climbout it was the only patch of fog for 20 miles in any direction.)
 
EdFred said:
It does land in molten lava!

Oh, and I've done a 0 vis take off. Yawn!

(It was a fall morning, and the aiport was fogged in due to it's proximity to the river. the drive there was clear up to a 1/4 mile from the airport. I had a funeral to attend out of state, and I sat around for a bit waiting for the fog to lift/burn, but it didn't. I heard some guys over head and on unicom saying they couldn't see through the fog to see where the runway was. Finally hit the "must leave time" and taxiied out to the runway. I couldn't see to the next stripe on t/o roll, but could see to the runway edge. I just kept the same distance to the edge of the runway, and went. I figured since the guys couldn't land I wasn't going to have to worry about anyone landing on me while departing. As soon as we rotated, we were out of the fog. It was dense, but not very deep - maybe 25'. On climbout it was the only patch of fog for 20 miles in any direction.)
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Yeah, but you didn't do it at Philadelphia... 15 times in a row.
 
EdFred said:
It does land in molten lava!
Oh, and I've done a 0 vis take off. Yawn!
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I'm sorry to hear of your passing. Was it painful when you rolled up in a ball of aluminum at the end of the runway?

I'm sure the probable cause was pilot error - careless and reckless operation.

Did you file a flight plan first? :loco:
 
Steve Foley said:
I'm sorry to hear of your passing. Was it painful when you rolled up in a ball of aluminum at the end of the runway?

I'm sure the probable cause was pilot error - careless and reckless operation.

Did you file a flight plan first? :loco:
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File a flight plan for what?
 
dmccormack said:
I'll correct my statement -- Of course CFR Part 135 ops permit circling approaches.

But which air transport (greater than 15 pax) carrier is doing circling approaches?
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I'd imagine all of them that have a need to.
 
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