Dawdling pilot= go around

gismo

gismo

Touchdown! Greaser!
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iGismo
Yesterday while flying back from an aviation seminar at a nearby airport I was forced to abort my landing when another plane took a few minutes to go from "cleared for takeoff" to actually rolling down the runway. I believe the controller's initial words to the other plane included a mention of a Baron turning base to final and he made two or three more calls to the pilot asking for "no delay" and repeating the fact that I was getting ready to land. But the progress from the hold short line to the runway was very slow and then the plane just sat there on the end of the runway until I offset to the left and started climbing back to pattern altitude.

I recognized the airplane as one I had often flown (and actually helped purchase) when I was in the club it belongs to many years ago so when I heard the plane coming back in on the radio in my hangar I went over to the club's hangar to have a chat with the pilot. I had suspected this was a CFI with student but it turned out to be a solo student. I explained that his actions had required me to abort a landing and waste $10 of fuel and advised him that when cleared for takeoff he should either do so without undue delay or stay put and decline the clearance, especially when the tower is telling him about traffic on final and asking him to expidite. He told me he didn't understand what the controller was saying and was trying to get the tower to clarify.

Even though I suspected as much, I didn't actually know he was a student until another club instructor (not his) who was about to go on a flight in the same airplane showed up and said he'd mention the episode to the student's instructor for further discussion. And as a student I know I have to cut him some slack (I sure needed some when I was learning to fly) but I'm hoping this student has or will learn something from this experience, especially given that I learned he's only a couple weeks from his PPL checkride. He did have a middle eastern appearance and slight accent so there might have been a language issue involved as well although his conversation with me was by no means impaired by language.

At this point my only concerns are that he seemed pretty emphatic that the problem was with the controller who "kept saying something" the student didn't understand, not the pilot's own actions. He did offer an apology but it too involved blaming the controller. I had thought of asking the tower manager for a copy of the relevant radio recording and asking the student's instructor to review that with the pilot to help him learn what to do better next time but that seems like a lot of bother for such a minor transgression.
 
If the instructor with whom you spoke talks to the student's own instructor, the situation should get resolved without any further involvement on your part. The only thing I'd say at this point is that if the tower's transmissions to the student were not proper phraseology spoken clearly at an appropriate rate, you might raise this with the tower chief as a contributing factor. Otherwise, you've done your part.
 
If someone is having trouble understanding the controller, an active runway is the absolute last place you belong. I think talking to his instructor is a good idea, that's not just annoying, it's downright dangerous.
 
I'm not sure teaching and blaming go well together. If the point was really to help the student I would have totally skipped the "you made me waste $10 in gas" spiel and gone straight to something a bit more constructive. Or just go straight to the instructor and let them do the teaching.

For me personally, when someone criticizes me I go straight on the defensive. I've tried to break the habit, but it isn't easy. I guess it's my single character flaw :goofy:
 
lionclaw said:
I'm not sure teaching and blaming go well together. If the point was really to help the student I would have totally skipped the "you made me waste $10 in gas" spiel and gone straight to something a bit more constructive. Or just go straight to the instructor and let them do the teaching.
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I tend to agree with that. Even if you are right, a complete stranger offering criticism with no particular authority over someone is not likely to achieve the desired result. Didn't the tower controller say anything? The ones around here aren't shy about telling pilots when they are displeased. The guy probably shouldn't have been soloing, however, even native English speakers sometimes freeze up in the face of pressure when they don't understand what the tower is telling them to do.

lionclaw said:
For me personally, when someone criticizes me I go straight on the defensive.
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I think that's a very natural reaction and not uncommon at all.
 
Interesting....and the tower didn't give you the heads-up to go around?
 
Having learned at Boeing Field, I can assure you that when my buck fifty is cleared for T/O on 16R with an added " Boeing Heavy on 5 mile final " I am OUTTA HERE!!! Unless instructed to 'line up and wait' one should enter the runway prepared for immediate take off. The instructions " without delay" should really never be needed. EVERY (normal) take off should be without(significant) Delay. The run up area is where ya goof off, read the manual & set up the instruments & gps . Dave
 
I think you were lucky it was a towered airport, since I have seen much worse behavior at uncontrolled fields: guys in 150's taxiing down a 5,000 foot runway instead of turning off and using a taxiway, or while on short final hearing someone say they are departing the runway you about to land on (with my Extra there is little forward visibility, and it has to fly faster than a Baron in the pattern in order to avoid a very high sink rate on final). There is still a moment when near the threshold when there is absolutely no forward visibility at all.

So, I think fly-ins at uncontrolled fields are even worse.
 
As an instructor at an airport that can get busy in an area where there are quite a few that always get busy, it will say this is an issue I wish was taken more seriously.

There is a fine line between not being rushed and not wasting time. We usually have time at our airport so I usually give the spiel about If you go to a busy airport you have to be ready to go, when the controller says "cleared for takeoff" start moving and keep listening. Don't dawdle but it's OK to say unable to an expedite request. (sorry Lance) I also say you're a student pilot once you cross that hold short line the runway is yours, don't rush and don't hesitate to abort the landing, screw the guy on final he can go around but once you commit you only get one chance.

Joe
 
Areeda said:
If you go to a busy airport you have to be ready to go, when the controller says "cleared for takeoff" start moving and keep listening.
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Doesn't matter whether the airport is busy or not -- you don't stop on the runway for any more time that it takes to run the engine(s) up.

Don't dawdle but it's OK to say unable to an expedite request. (sorry Lance)
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No argument there, but you have to say that before you cross the hold-short line. Once you do...
...cross that hold short line...
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...absent an emergency, you cannot stop and sit, even if you are a Student Pilot. Kinda like an intersection with a traffic light -- when the light turns green, you can enter the intersection, but you're not allowed to just stop in the middle and block traffic because you're not sure which way you want to go. You pull clear, pull over, and sort it out, after you get out of the way.

don't rush and don't hesitate to abort the landing, screw the guy on final he can go around but once you commit you only get one chance.
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This is about taking off, not landing. If you're landing, yes, you do what you have to do to complete the landing safely and if that's a problem for the next plane, that's another story entirely. But when cleared for takeoff, once you cross the line, you must get your rear in gear. If you can't do that, stay where you are and let Tower know you're not going, and they'll cancel your clearance and clear the next plane to land.
 
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I don't think we disagree Ron.

Certainly unable must be declared before crossing the hold short line.

Stopping on the runway during takeoff is only acceptable if you are disabled, even a aborted take off should clear the runway as quickly as safety allows.

My point about an airport that's not busy is more that tower doesn't complain. That's my job. Much of the don't waste time mind set comes from making fun, and complaining about people who do.

Given all that, I don't want to see student pilots applying full power before lined up with the centerline.
 
I have the mentality that once you pass the hold short line, you are dedicated to taking off. Which is why you do the before take off checklist before you cross that line. Once you cross that line, your only goal should be getting off the ground as quickly and as safely as possible.
 
I believe the post began about a pilot who took minutes. Even a student pilot should be able to advance to the center-line , pivot 90 degrees & line up on center. It is only a brief pause as power is applied and the roll begun. I bet it took longer for me to type it than it takes to do .From clearance to roll would easily be under a minute DAve
 
gismo said:
Yesterday while flying back from an aviation seminar at a nearby airport I was forced to abort my landing when another plane took a few minutes to go from "cleared for takeoff" to actually rolling down the runway. I believe the controller's initial words to the other plane included a mention of a Baron turning base to final and he made two or three more calls to the pilot asking for "no delay" and repeating the fact that I was getting ready to land.
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Being a student myself at a non-towered airport I have yet to deal with operations at towered airports. So I have some questions about what happened to determine how things may have appeared to the student:

Was the sequence of events such that the tower was transmitting after the airplane had taken the runway?

If you heard "cleared for takeoff," took the runway, and then hear further transmissions from the tower to you that you can't quite make out, should you take off anyway or first try to get clarification?
 
All I can say about how long is too long is that if I call midfield downwind, and get cleared to land, and then you call for takeoff, and Tower clears you for takeoff, and I have to go around because you're still on the runway, you took too long.

And in case you're wondering, I had someone do that to me three times in a row! We were doing T&G's, and the only other plane in the pattern was doing full-stop/taxi-backs. Each time they taxied back, called for takeoff, got their clearance, and pulled onto the runway, they stopped long enough to force us to go around. And since we were doing 180 power-off approaches, we didn't have the option of turning back out and in again without spoiling the training. After that, they accepted a "suggestion" from tower to do their training elsewhere, but it sure wasted a lot of our time.
 
Ddayle said:
I believe the post began about a pilot who took minutes. Even a student pilot should be able to advance to the center-line , pivot 90 degrees & line up on center. It is only a brief pause as power is applied and the roll begun. I bet it took longer for me to type it than it takes to do .From clearance to roll would easily be under a minute DAve
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I don't think there's any question that the student should not have taken "minutes", metaphorical or otherwise. The question is what, if anything, the person who had to go around can do about it. I think the best situation would be if the tower notified the flight school since it seems that the airplane is based at one on the field. In lieu of that, you could tell the flight school yourself and let them deal with the student. However, if you are going to confront the student yourself it might be better off to start out with, "may I give you some friendly advice" rather than mentioning the extra fuel you had to burn during the go around which would immediately put someone on the defensive.
 
Jim Logajan said:
Was the sequence of events such that the tower was transmitting after the airplane had taken the runway?

If you heard "cleared for takeoff," took the runway, and then hear further transmissions from the tower to you that you can't quite make out, should you take off anyway or first try to get clarification?
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Once you are told "cleared for takeoff," you need no further communication -- you're cleared for takeoff unless specifically instructed otherwise, and even then, if you're already rolling and can't stop safely, you continue and hope the controllers can clean up the mess they made. If after you enter the runway then say something and you can't tell what they said (which might not even have been directed at you), it's up to you as pilot in command to either take off (as you were cleared to do) or clear the runway because you suspect that taking off will compromise safety. Which you do depends on your perception of the situation and the safest course of action. But just sitting there while you sort it out isn't an option after you've heard "cleared for takeoff."

And there's no excuse for not understanding the meaning of "without delay." If the trainee was allowed to solo without being able to understand all reasonably foreseeable tower instructions, the instructor has screwed up. I once had to withdraw the solo privileges of a Student Pilot whose first language was not English because when he got excited, his English language skill deteriorated to the point that he could not understand and follow normal tower instructions, and when he flew solo, he got excited (as we discovered on his first, rather eventful, solo -- fortunately, I was in the tower and able to eventually reel him in).

As for whose responsibility it was to talk to the pilot in the OP, I'd say that in the interest of safety, someone has to do it, and if the Tower doesn't, I will try to find a way to make that communication in a friendly, nonconfrontational, nonjudgemental manner.
 
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I had this happen at Santa Monica not to long ago I was cleared to land on about a 5 mi final and a Hawker jet was cleared for takeoff. After pulling out and stopping he just sat there, tower was very apologetic when they called my go around "I didn't expect them to take THAAT long", and I said "I thought there was plenty of room when you cleared me". Hawker pilot was silent.
 
Ron Levy said:
Once you are told "cleared for takeoff," you need no further communication -- you're cleared for takeoff unless specifically instructed otherwise, and even then, if you're already rolling and can't stop safely, you continue and hope the controllers can clean up the mess they made.
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I was under impression that such clearances should be acknowledged (AIM 4-13-18 b.1).
-- Pete
 
You did good Lance. Only thing I would change is toggling to guns when you got within 1/2mile of the target.
 
gismo said:
Yesterday while flying back from an aviation seminar at a nearby airport I was forced to abort my landing when another plane took a few minutes to go from "cleared for takeoff" to actually rolling down the runway. I believe the controller's initial words to the other plane included a mention of a Baron turning base to final and he made two or three more calls to the pilot asking for "no delay" and repeating the fact that I was getting ready to land. But the progress from the hold short line to the runway was very slow and then the plane just sat there on the end of the runway until I offset to the left and started climbing back to pattern altitude..
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The guy was probably wondering if he had put the $20 and receipt for the gas for the crew car that he used from a hotel that he changed his mind about , but felt bad for using the car, where the hotel owner would find it. :D
 
Areeda said:
Hawker pilot was silent.
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Chances are he wasn't a student pilot.:D

WRT the "you cost me..." I agree that wasn't very productive, in my mind at the time I was feeling the pilot (didn't know he was a student at that point) didn't see anything wrong with taking his sweet time from clearance to rolling and I made that statement with the hope he'd realize his action had consequences for me. And after about two brief exchanges (none were really adversarial) I made the conversation turn pretty friendly and aside from the "blame the controller" aspect I don't think the student was being defensive.

As to the "minutes" I'm pretty sure it was truly 2 minutes or a little more from takeoff clearance to rolling although I didn't have a stopwatch on it. The sequence I recall starts with my making a requested report to the tower at 2 miles north at which point I was cleared to land. Shortly after that as I began my turn to midfield downwind the student was cleared for takeoff (I remember thinking "he'll be long gone before I turn final". My turn to downwind took at least half a minute and I believe I spent another 30 seconds on downwind. I actually extended the downwind a bit since I could see that the airplane at the hold short line was slow getting started towards the runway. The time on base was pretty short but two turns plus a mile final had to consume at least another minute as I was down to 100 Kt by then and making fairly shallow (20° bank) turns. During the entire time I was on final the pilot was just sitting on the runway. A few hundred feet from the threshold I asked tower if I could sidestep to the parallel (right) runway and he had time to say "unable" (due to a Cherokee that chose to roll the entire 5000 ft to the end, but to be fair the Cherokee likely knew he was the only traffic using that runway). Tower made two "no delay" calls prior to my asking for the sidestep, one before the student entered the runway and one after he stopped on it.

And FWIW, the student didn't believe he took "minutes" to start his takeoff roll, I believe that to him it all happened pretty fast as his confusion likely affected his sense of time. When I mentioned that if he'd just have started to roll once he was on the runway instead of sitting there he was pretty adamant that he "didn't stop at all" .

I also remember thinking the tower could/should have canceled the takeoff clearance rather than making the "no delay, I've got a Baron on base" call as I don't think the student had even started to move by then. And as an added complication the hold short lines have been moved quite a ways from the runway during a recent improvement project so even if you start to move as soon as you get cleared you do have to cover at least 150 ft to the runway center. But even at walking speed that shouldn't take more than 20-30 seconds.
 
This is something that should be put on the instructors shoulders. The instruction the student had been receiving appears to be inadequate at best, shoddy at worst. This is basic ground school stuff, it never should have happened.

The students instructor owes you ten bucks.

John
 
Baron pilots are notorious cheapskates. Getting ten bucks out of those guys is harder than thumping a fart out of a dead man.
 
Ron Levy said:
Once you are told "cleared for takeoff," you need no further communication -- you're cleared for takeoff unless specifically instructed otherwise, and even then, if you're already rolling and can't stop safely, you continue and hope the controllers can clean up the mess they made. If after you enter the runway then say something and you can't tell what they said (which might not even have been directed at you), it's up to you as pilot in command to either take off (as you were cleared to do) or clear the runway because you suspect that taking off will compromise safety. Which you do depends on your perception of the situation and the safest course of action. But just sitting there while you sort it out isn't an option after you've heard "cleared for takeoff."
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In another life, I was given a position and hold. Then Cleared for Takeoff (unintelligible sentence) :dunno: I asked if anyone in the cockpit understood. No. Tower please repeat (same) anyone understand? no Please repeat. Same thing. Let's just go. (It was the copilot's turn and I was on the radio.)

At the top of the hill everyone in the cockpit instantly knew what he was saying: "Use caution men and equipment on end of runway." :hairraise: They were extending the runway, and there were small cranes, dump trucks, concrete trucks, and more. Addis Abeba, Ethiopia, 7,600MSL, 7,500 ft long at the time, big hump in the middle. I am convinced that several people lost their hearing that day. (C-141A/H, hot day)

Since then, I make sure I understand what tower is saying. Cleared for takeoff and something else, I am going to ask if I don't understand. I will not enter the runway, but if I am on it, I will ask and sit until I understand.
 
zaitcev said:
I was under impression that such clearances should be acknowledged (AIM 4-13-18 b.1).
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Point taken. But once that's done and you taxi onto the runway, no further communication is required, and the controller will expect you to launch unless another instruction is given and acknowledged.
 
Ron Levy said:
Point taken. But once that's done and you taxi onto the runway, no further communication is required, and the controller will expect you to launch unless another instruction is given and acknowledged.
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The need to acknowledge lead to one of my radio screw-ups. On departure from APA ground instructs "hold short 17L, monitor tower" so I dutifully switch the panel to monitor tower. Tower calls with clearance and I acknowledge on ground because all I'm doing is monitoring tower. Finally switched over to the other com and got the heck out of there - held it low until I was about 120 knots indicated (Vy = 90). Ya just kinda let it float up to about 6 ft in ground effect and the Dakota will move right out at 41 inches and about 2400#...
 
gismo said:
Chances are he wasn't a student pilot.:D

Shortly after that as I began my turn to midfield downwind the student was cleared for takeoff (I remember thinking "he'll be long gone before I turn final".
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Quote from OP:

I believe the controller's initial words to the other plane included a mention of a Baron turning base to final
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I'm confused now, which was it? We're not very good at recalling exactly what happened in a lot of instances.

Locally our controllers pretty well know the training aircraft on the field and will usually not put them in such a position.
 
I disagree with everybody. I'd rather have a confused pilot work through his issue on the ground than in the air, especially a student pilot. Airplanes are less likely to crash when they're motionless on the ground. Unlike you shlubs I have no problem doing a go around and can perform one safely.
 
steingar said:
I disagree with everybody. I'd rather have a confused pilot work through his issue on the ground than in the air, especially a student pilot. Airplanes are less likely to crash when they're motionless on the ground. Unlike you shlubs I have no problem doing a go around and can perform one safely.
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I don't think anyone here would disagree with that (certainly I wouldn't). But there's a difference between working it out on the ground, safely behind the hold short line, and doing it while sitting on an active runway, especially with one's back to landing traffic.
 
steingar said:
I disagree with everybody. I'd rather have a confused pilot work through his issue on the ground than in the air, especially a student pilot. Airplanes are less likely to crash when they're motionless on the ground. Unlike you shlubs I have no problem doing a go around and can perform one safely.
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Lesson 1: This is an airplane, Don't sit on an active runway. Any questions?
 
from my time flying gliders from a fairly busy uncontrolled airport i developed a great awareness of wasting time on the runway. i prefer to treat them like railroad tracks, spend as little time on them as possible.
 
+1 for bad idea in mentioning your fuel cost. That is only going to have him thinking that that is worthy of putting into his thought process. It confuses the issue and detracts form the importance of your comments/questions.

Safety is the only thing that is the consideration here.

If you can't afford an extra $10 in fuel then you shouldn't be flying a Baron.
 
steingar said:
I disagree with everybody. I'd rather have a confused pilot work through his issue on the ground than in the air, especially a student pilot. Airplanes are less likely to crash when they're motionless on the ground. Unlike you shlubs I have no problem doing a go around and can perform one safely.
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I understand your point, but before releasing him for solo, the Student's instructor should have taught him that you never just sit on an active runway except when told "line up and wait."* You either go, or you clear -- no middle ground unless your airplane is unable to move.

*...or doing LAHSO, but Student Pilots aren't allowed to do LAHSO.
 
EppyGA said:
Quote from OP:


I'm confused now, which was it? We're not very good at recalling exactly what happened in a lot of instances.

Locally our controllers pretty well know the training aircraft on the field and will usually not put them in such a position.
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I'd have to listen to the tapes to be certain but I'm pretty sure the "Baron turning final" transmission was at least the second wake up call from the tower. I don't think the controller mentioned my plane in his initial takeoff clearance to the other pilot.
 
timrj said:
+1 for bad idea in mentioning your fuel cost. That is only going to have him thinking that that is worthy of putting into his thought process. It confuses the issue and detracts form the importance of your comments/questions.

Safety is the only thing that is the consideration here.

If you can't afford an extra $10 in fuel then you shouldn't be flying a Baron.
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I agree. I definitely could have been more diplomatic at first.
 
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