Dam in CA coming from together....

PaulS said:
This is very scary, hopefully it won't breach. Some heads should roll for this being even a possibility.

http://www.sacbee.com/news/state/california/water-and-drought/article132332499.html
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Pretty well every man-made object creates and carries new risks - including our airplanes. The ONLY way to ensure there is never a possibility of a dam failure is to avoid building any dams at all. Just like the only way to ensure there is no possibility of a plane crash is to permanently ground all airplanes.

This dam is nearly 50 years old since completion, and it is the auxiliary spillway, not the entire dam, that is at risk.
 
GRG55 said:
Pretty well every man-made object creates and carries new risks - including our airplanes. The ONLY way to ensure there is never a possibility of a dam failure is to avoid building any dams at all. Just like the only way to ensure there is no possibility of a plane crash is to permanently ground all airplanes.

This dam is nearly 50 years old since completion, and it is the auxiliary spillway, not the entire dam, that is at risk.
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They've known this dam was at risk for at 10 years and did nothing. Would you fly your airplane with huge defect that could cause catastrophic failure at the most inopportune time?

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/...tate-officials-ignored-warnings-12-years-ago/
 
The spillway eroded. The immediate problem is the backup spillway, which has never been used before, does not conform to modern regulations (but it did when it was built), and is not handling the load adequately.

It is MUCH too early to say heads should roll. In fact, it's irresponsible. We want those in charge to do the right thing to handle the emergency, not the expedient thing. Which they seem to be doing, but for the sake of all those downstream, do NOT attack emergency workers during an emergency.
 
GRG55 said:
This dam is nearly 50 years old since completion, and it is the auxiliary spillway, not the entire dam, that is at risk.
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The aux spillway is dirt and is eroding. But the main spillway is also failing: "Unexpected erosion chewed through the main spillway earlier this week, sending chunks of concrete flying and creating a 200-foot-long, 30-foot-deep hole."
 
It never rains in California, but girl don't they warn ya...
 
PaulS said:
They've known this dam was at risk for at 10 years and did nothing. Would you fly your airplane with huge defect that could cause catastrophic failure at the most inopportune time?/
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I fly knowing the engine(s) may fail unexpectedly...:loco::lol::lol:

(and I know what you meant...:))
 
There is deteriorating and failing infrastructure all over this country. It is way past time to do something. Hopefully the current administration isn't just blowing smoke about doing something.
 
GRG55 said:
Every non-seismic conforming building, bridge and highway flyover along the entire west coast is a known risk.
What would you suggest?
Call in the Red Queen?
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I would suggest that a dam with an emergency spillover made of earth be redone with concrete, pretty stupid if you ask me. I would suggest that a dam with a main spillway that has cracked the year before receive a more thorough repair job than a patch job. I would suggest that having an earthen dam that holds back that amount of water above a city with 190,000 people in it's path if it's failed should never have been built of earth. This reminds me of when New Orleans flooded, incompetence and corruption.
 
PaulS said:
I would suggest that a dam with an emergency spillover made of earth be redone with concrete, pretty stupid if you ask me. I would suggest that a dam with a main spillway that has cracked the year before receive a more thorough repair job than a patch job. I would suggest that having an earthen dam that holds back that amount of water above a city with 190,000 people in it's path if it's failed should never have been built of earth. This reminds me of when New Orleans flooded, incompetence and corruption.
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Whose checkbook do the improvements come out of? You can't go back and re-do every single piece of infrastructure and technology simply because it doesn't meet current standards. Unless you're okay with a giant WPA-project that the government funds (read: enormous long-term debt) in order to rebuild anything that doesn't meet current standards, then most things will have to wait until they have reached the end of their expected lives and be funded individually as-needed. I'm willing to bet that there weren't 190K people in its path when the dam was originally designed/constructed, so who do you blame when the dam breaks, the government or the people who chose to live there? The blame doesn't generally fall on the shoulders of any single person/entity.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Whose checkbook do the improvements come out of? You can't go back and re-do every single piece of infrastructure and technology simply because it doesn't meet current standards. Unless you're okay with a giant WPA-project that the government funds (read: enormous long-term debt) in order to rebuild anything that doesn't meet current standards, then most things will have to wait until they have reached the end of their expected lives and be funded individually as-needed. I'm willing to bet that there weren't 190K people in its path when the dam was originally designed/constructed, so who do you blame when the dam breaks, the government or the people who chose to live there? The blame doesn't generally fall on the shoulders of any single person/entity.
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Well, to start, I would say most of the money should come out of the pocketbooks of those who benefit from the dam. How much do you suppose it will cost should the dam fail? Never time (or money) to do it right, always time (or money) to do it over.
 
MAKG1 said:
You mean like the 172 seat rail AD? You inspect it periodically and limit its travel, but replacement and redesign was never required.
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Picky, I know, but it applies to a lot more than the 172. The list includes the 150, 152, 170, 172, 175, 177, 180, 182, 185, 188, 190, 195, 206, 207, 210, T303, 336, and 337. And the current AD was predated by ADs as early as 1987, after the legacy aircraft construction ceased. When it started again in '96, the airplanes had a far better system to which no ADs applied, and it's still clear of ADs.

Replacement and redesign of the old stuff would mean phenomenal expense for everyone concerned. It would write off a large percentage of the airplanes. Cessna built dozens of difference seats, all with different roller housings and locking pins and levers, some of them welded-up assemblies. The fact remains that with proper maintenance they work well enough, the same as any other part of the airplane.
 
PaulS said:
Well, to start, I would say most of the money should come out of the pocketbooks of those who benefit from the dam. How much do you suppose it will cost should the dam fail? Never time (or money) to do it right, always time (or money) to do it over.
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So, who benefits from it?

If it fails, it's a Federal disaster, and everyone loses money. So, every taxpayer benefits from fixing it.

Do you mean only those people who live downstream? Or those that use the power generated? Or the irrigation users? How about the people who buy the food? Recreational users from out of state?

It sure is nice to have a simple answer to a complex problem. Just, the real world doesn't cooperate.
 
MAKG1 said:
So, who benefits from it?

If it fails, it's a Federal disaster, and everyone loses money. So, every taxpayer benefits from fixing it.

Do you mean only those people who live downstream? Or those that use the power generated? Or the irrigation users? How about the people who buy the food? Recreational users from out of state?

It sure is nice to have a simple answer to a complex problem. Just, the real world doesn't cooperate.
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Your first sentence, perfect example of never time to do it right, always time to do it over. You listed all the people who directly benefit from the dam, except possibly the people down stream, they may only be threatened by the incompetence. People who buy the food? They would be covered by the farmers who use the water, recreational users? Most places I go to recreationally have user fees, registration fees, whatever. It's not difficult, it's simple. The tough part comes in keeping the politicians from diverting the funds to pay raises and pensions.
 
MAKG1 said:
So, who benefits from it?
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The people who receive their water from the water districts who are customers of the dam.

Do you mean only those people who live downstream? Or those that use the power generated? Or the irrigation users?
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Mostly the water users. If at the time of re-licensing, FERC had required to upgrade the emergency spillway by building a concrete chute similar to the regular spillway, those rate payers would have had to foot the bill. By doing it on the cheap, the dam owner was able to keep the cost of the re-licensing process low.

Yes dear, I know it was legal back in 1968, but a lot of stuff was legal back then and nuclear, coal and other plants were forced to upgrade their safety precautions wherever technically feasible.




Based on the footage, it doesn't look like the main earth dam is at risk of erosion. The emergency spillway is away from the main damface. So even if it starts to undercut and erode, it won't be a big kaboom with the entire dam washing out, it will be more of a gradual erosion until the water cuts its way down to bedrock.
 
PaulS said:
I would suggest that having an earthen dam that holds back that amount of water above a city with 190,000 people in it's path if it's failed should never have been built of earth. This reminds me of when New Orleans flooded, incompetence and corruption.
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Incompetence comes from ignorance...like statements like this. The damn is NOT at risk...the spillway release system is. Would not have made a difference if the damn was earth or concrete. The damn is not gonna fail and release all its contents, if the spillway "fails" they just loose control of the release rate out of the reservoir which was put in place to regulate downstream flood control...which was made of concrete BTW. If you read twitter and some of the sensationalism news you would think that Sacramento is gonna be wiped of the face of the earth...the ignorance about the facts of the situation and the political posturing is astounding and frankly pathetic.

We will be sure to remember those sentiments when your part of the country faces a disaster.

Who the heck builds houses in Tornado Alley anyway?
 
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PaulS said:
Your first sentence, perfect example of never time to do it right, always time to do it over. You listed all the people who directly benefit from the dam, except possibly the people down stream, they may only be threatened by the incompetence. People who buy the food? They would be covered by the farmers who use the water, recreational users? Most places I go to recreationally have user fees, registration fees, whatever. It's not difficult, it's simple. The tough part comes in keeping the politicians from diverting the funds to pay raises and pensions.
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Most places that have user fees lose money hand over fist because it's just not reasonable to charge someone $1000 to drop a fishing line in a lake.

The world just isn't that simple. The whole lake exists in the first place because of a Federal project run by the Bureau of Reclamation.
 
I saw this tape advertised on Tv that is water proof and will stop any leak.....
 
Here's a picture of the damaged concrete spillway a few days ago. The emergency spillway is to the left, that lower cutout that's barely visible along the upper edge. The dam itself is off the picture on the right.

The hole in the spillway is allowing water to undercut it and erode the hillside. The emergency spillway is just a lower wall that allows water to run over the top. Apparently the lake level has never been high enough for that to happen before. Now, water is running over and is also causing erosion to the hillside below.

KG_oro_spillway_damage_10235.jpg
 
Matthew said:
Apparently the lake level has never been high enough for that to happen before. Now, water is running over and is also causing erosion to the hillside below.
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The issus is not the lake level itself...I have been on Lake Oroville at 101% capacity and that is common in regular usage. The issues is the amount of water that is coming INTO the the lake due to the record rains and snowfall...and subsequent melting. There are three ways to get water out of the lake to prevent topping the damn...the hydro pumps which run water through the power plant and how water is typically send downstream, the main spillway which is a controlled release when the level gets higher then the emergency spillway which is designed as a last resort before topping the damn and never been used since the damn's construction.

This will probably make some of your ear's bleed just based on the presenter but here is an excellent video of the situation and how we got where we are now and will give you some perspective.

 
Shawn said:
Incompetence comes from ignorance...like statements like this. The damn is NOT at risk...the spillway release system is. Would not have made a difference if the damn was earth or concrete. The damn is not gonna fail and release all its contents, if the spillway "fails" they just loose control of the release rate out of the reservoir which was put in place to regulate downstream flood control...which was made of concrete BTW. If you read twitter and some of the sensationalism news you would think that Sacramento is gonna be wiped of the face of the earth...the ignorance about the facts of the situation and the political posturing is astounding and frankly pathetic.

We will be sure to remember those sentiments when your part of the country faces a disaster.

Who the heck builds houses in Tornado Alley anyway?
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The dam is at risk Shawn, why do you suppose they are evacuating 190,000 people? The crisis seems averted for now, but the fear was the hillside would be eroded by the spillover and the dam would fail. More rain is expected now and they are trying to repair the spillways. The main spillway was eroding at a fast rate, guess which direction the failure was headed? Ignorance is bliss.
 
Isn't the problem where the unarmored part of the spillway meets the armored part? I saw it eroding at that junction yesterday. The photos today are just photos of the general area. It seems like most of the media has no idea where the actual problem is... they just heard that there's an issue so they're filming the main spillway release.
 
PaulS said:
The dam is at risk Shawn, why do you suppose they are evacuating 190,000 people? The crisis seems averted for now, but the fear was the hillside would be eroded by the spillover and the dam would fail. More rain is expected now and they are trying to repair the spillways. The main spillway was eroding at a fast rate, guess which direction the failure was headed? Ignorance is bliss.
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The dam itself isn't at risk. The auxiliary spillway is. So is the main spillway. The major concern for the dam itself is that water and silt will back up into the bottom of the power station at the base of the dam and damage that.
 
ircphoenix said:
Isn't the problem where the unarmored part of the spillway meets the armored part? I saw it eroding at that junction yesterday. The photos today are just photos of the general area. It seems like most of the media has no idea where the actual problem is... they just heard that there's an issue so they're filming the main spillway release.
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Here is a link to a pretty good picture of one of the problem areas, you can see where it is failed and the water undercutting toward the dam.

https://twitter.com/CHPCommissioner/status/831207748004048896/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
 
ircphoenix said:
The dam itself isn't at risk. The auxiliary spillway is. So is the main spillway. The major concern for the dam itself is that water and silt will back up into the bottom of the power station at the base of the dam and damage that.
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You basically just said the dam isn't at risk but they are worried the dam is at risk.
 
Here is another image, notice the breech in the concrete and the erosion.

C4ig8K_VcAA40hv.jpg
 
Back in '93 we had heavy rains in the midwest. The Tuttle Creek dam near Manhattan, KS had to release so much water so quickly that the concrete spillway was eaten away. The erosion went way down into the rock. After it had drained, the result was a new canyon that archeologists and geologists had a chance to explore.

edit: That's an RC club air field on the left.


%25210_2011_0604_TuttleCreekDam_SpillwayDamage1993.jpg
 
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PaulS said:
The dam is at risk Shawn, why do you suppose they are evacuating 190,000 people?
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Where do you get your information? Twitter and Facebook? Educate yourself before you make arguments.

I opted to pay attention to CalOES, Department of Water Resources, and the agencies involved in the incident for the facts.
 
For those who enjoy technical background, here's a fantastic forum on the situation, with many photos and videos. Best source I've found. Try to read it all the way through to follow the situation as it developed. Well worth the time! Oh, and the media is getting many of the facts wrong (as expected.)

https://www.metabunk.org/oroville-dam-spillway-failure.t8381/

To make it aviation related, they are starting to airlift in large bags of rock fill to drop into some of the holes in the emergency spillway.

The engineers are really in a tough spot. They can no longer use the emergency spillway to shut down the main spillway for structural repair. They seem to be in a position where they will have to sacrifice the main spillway until drier weather occurs, then repair exponentially more damage than there is now.

Additionally, there is the drama of losing the power lines to the generating station (bottom photo), which will prevent starting up the hydro to relieve pressure on the dam. Need power to open the valves, and the turbines must be generating, and not freewheeling to prevent overspeed damage.

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