Cutest ATC clip of all time

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

Without a doubt. I hear it with controllers all the time. D, C, B, Tower, TRACON, Ground, Center...

The guy that pronounces it "Shah-tahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh-quah 5050."
The lady who says , "Hey didn't I just hear from you."
The guy that laughs says, "No, no, no, no it's not a big reroute...."

They were definitely having fun with their job, nothing was ever compromised, and you could tell it put a smile on their (and other pilot's) faces.

I agree (and with what Ted posted somewhere above). But, do these types of "fun" compare with the "fun" had in the instance that's the subject of this thread?

Like I said, don't mistake the seriousness that I'd treat this incident with - all I'm saying is that I see exactly where Harry and others are coming from, and agree absolutely with those concerns.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

...
I guess since I think a controller should focus on controlling, I must clearly hate butterflies and unicorns.

....

We used to call cute girls "unicorns" in college, because they were mystical creatures that would be there when you were sober, but never when you were drunk.

 

[mantakos]

It is routine for surgeons to have students sitting and watching what's going on, and there's no problem to me with kids being there as well.

I don't know why this is such a difficult concept to grasp. There is a line. It's okay to be on this side of that line, it's not okay to be on the other side of that line.

It's okay to bring your kid up into the tower and show him where you work. You do this when you're not on duty. You can sit him down at a station that isn't being used, and let him push the buttons. He can watch the other controllers do their thing, from a respectful distance. You can play ATC with the kid in the car on the way to the airport.

It's okay to let a kid observe surgery (sometimes, I'd think that the patient should have some say in this), if the kid is older and mature and keeping a safe distance. It's not okay to hand a 6-year-old a scalpel.

This isn't a black and white issue. To say "Daddy shouldn't be fooling with the kid while on duty" isn't the same as saying "all children must be banned from workplaces". It's about knowing where the line is. This guy crossed that line. You can understand the concept of "boundaries" for children without being a fun-hating child-oppressor.

When I was a kid, I didn't need to be handed the controls of a 767 in order to play pilot, I just needed my imagination and a Playskool airplane. I visited my Dad's office, but I didn't need to make a presentation to the Board of Directors.
-harry

 

[Ted]

Like I said, don't mistake the seriousness that I'd treat this incident with - all I'm saying is that I see exactly where Harry and others are coming from, and agree absolutely with those concerns.

Having concerns that things were not being done properly I agree is valid. However when you listen to the clip and see that the kid wasn't doing all traffic direction and was only doing what his dad told him to do when his dad told him to do it, that should assuage all concerns.

 

[flyersfan31]

It doesn't matter if it was fun.

It doesn't matter if it was cute.

Harry isn't arguing to execute the guy for it. He's saying it was a lapse in judgement, which it was. I agree. He should be counseled, then everyone should move on. Don't do it again.

 

[mantakos]

You don't think. That's the problem.

Yes, we already determined that the reason my opinion differs from yours is because of my significant character flaws.

Did any of the pilots have a problem with the kid? Certainly doesn't sound like it.

They didn't say so out loud. Perhaps that's because they're professionals, and they just do their job, which doesn't entail giving lessons to controllers over the frequency.
-harry

 

[EdFred]

Yes, we already determined that the reason my opinion differs from yours is because of my significant character flaws.

They didn't say so out loud. Perhaps that's because they're professionals, and they just do their job, which doesn't entail giving lessons to controllers over the frequency.
-harry

Ah, so you KNOW that it bothered the pilots. Must be great to be omniscient. Seriously, you need counseling on how to enjoy life.

 

[EdFred]

I don't know why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.
-harry

Yes, you are having trouble grasping the concept. Let's break it down to how simple this is when there isn't a push...

Without kid:

Tower controller checks for spacing between arrivals and departures.
Tower controller makes decision that plane is cleared for take off.
Tower controller tells plane it is cleared for takeoff.

With kid:

Tower controller checks for spacing between arrivals and departures.
Tower controller makes decision that plane is cleared for take off.
Tower controller tells kid to tell plane it is cleared for takeoff.
Kid tells plane cleared for takeoff.

ZOMG!!!!!!!!!!! The world is going to end, the child was put in charge of the entire nuclear arsenal of all the western countries, we are all going to die!!!!!

 

[Trapper John]

Yes, we already determined that the reason my opinion differs from yours is because of my significant character flaws.

Maybe it's oak poisoning...


Trapper John

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

Having concerns that things were not being done properly I agree is valid. However when you listen to the clip and see that the kid wasn't doing all traffic direction and was only doing what his dad told him to do when his dad told him to do it, that should assuage all concerns [about this incident].

If we added what I put in brackets/bold above, I agree completely. Even without it, I don't think it's a terribly big deal - but I do think it underscores a need to adhere to very high standards of professionalism in jobs that have a lot riding on them. That does need to be taken seriously - and I think that little dinky incidents like this provide the perfect opportunities to impress that on everyone, without a significant cost to anyone (nobody got hurt, nobody's the worse for it, and all that should result here is a stern talkin'-to).

But yeah, my thoughts on this particular incident are: whoopty-bleepin'-doo. As Harry said, have a talk with the guy, and move on.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

Maybe it's oak poisoning...


Trapper John

Or maybe the tree was poison oak? Scary, itchy, and painful, particularly as "sodomis arbore" was involved. I don't know if that's really a term, but it's funny to me.

 

[mantakos]

Ah, so you KNOW that it bothered the pilots.

Usually, when somebody says "perhaps", it's not considered logical to respond with "so you KNOW".
-harry

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

Yes, you are having trouble grasping the concept. Let's break it down to how simple this is when there isn't a push...

Without kid:

Tower controller checks for spacing between arrivals and departures.
Tower controller makes decision that plane is cleared for take off.
Tower controller tells plane it is cleared for takeoff.

With kid:

Tower controller checks for spacing between arrivals and departures.
Tower controller makes decision that plane is cleared for take off.
Tower controller tells kid to tell plane it is cleared for takeoff.
Kid tells plane cleared for takeoff.

ZOMG!!!!!!!!!!! The world is going to end, the child was put in charge of the entire nuclear arsenal of all the western countries, we are all going to die!!!!!

Did you see Harry's response to my earlier question re: an appropriate remedy? I think he made clear that he didn't consider this to be an overly big deal.

 

[Trapper John]

Or maybe the tree was poison oak? Scary, itchy, and painful, particularly as "sodomis arbore" was involved. I don't know if that's really a term, but it's funny to me.

Now I'm thinking Cartman and the satellite dish!


Trapper John

 

[mantakos]

Tower controller tells kid to tell plane it is cleared for takeoff.

Can I replace this line with "controller sends brief text to girlfriend", or "controller checks email", or "controller writes in 11-letter word for 'draws away attention' into 7 down", or "controller writes in number 3 into sudoko square"?

ZOMG!!!!!!!!!!! The world is going to end, the child was put in charge of the entire nuclear arsenal of all the western countries, we are all going to die!!!!!

I think there's a possibility that you might be expressing a level of drama that intentionally exaggerates my position.
-harry

 

[dmccormack]

Can I replace this line with "controller sends brief text to girlfriend", or "controller checks email", or "controller writes in 11-letter word for 'draws away attention' into 7 down", or "controller writes in number 3 into sudoko square"?

-harry

So this never happens?

 

[flyersfan31]

So this never happens?

It did. At TEB. Then a Saratoga and a helo collided.

(Remember - tower controller flirting with a line girl on the phone?)

 

[EdFred]

Can I replace this line with "controller sends brief text to girlfriend", or "controller checks email", or "controller writes in 11-letter word for 'draws away attention' into 7 down", or "controller writes in number 3 into sudoko square"?
-harry

No. All of those are much more distractive and require more brain processing power than telling a kid to say "x y z" Him telling his kid to say whatever was about the same as saying "Hey Joe, hand me my coffee" so I suppose we should outlaw coffee in the tower now too.

 

[mantakos]

Him telling his kid to say whatever was about the same as saying "Hey Joe, hand me my coffee" so I suppose we should outlaw coffee in the tower now too.

In my experience, children are a significantly greater distraction than coffee. Perhaps your experience differs.

I would guess that most Kindergarten teachers would agree that managing a room filled with 25 mugs of coffee would require significantly less effort on her part than her usual pupils.
-harry

 

[EdFred]

In my experience, children are a significantly greater distraction than coffee. Perhaps your experience differs.

I would guess that most Kindergarten teachers would agree that managing a room filled with 25 mugs of coffee would require significantly less effort on her part than her usual pupils.
-harry

I didn't realize there was 25 kids in the tower at one time.

 

[flyersfan31]

I would guess that most Kindergarten teachers would agree that managing a room filled with 25 mugs of coffee would require significantly less effort on her part than her usual pupils.
-harry

I am going to be laughing at this one long into the night!!

 

[mantakos]

I didn't realize there was 25 kids in the tower at one time.

And another notch in the loss column for analogies...
-harry

 

[Amelia]

If I understand the argument, we have a concern about professionalism, and that professionals, that is, PAID professionals, should be expected to exhibit this sterling quality. I'll grant that. One place we part company, I think, is the idea that paid professionals have a higher standard of responsibility than people who aren't being paid, and yet who have undertaken a responsibility for other people's lives.

I THINK I take my responsibilities to my passengers every bit as seriously when I fly them as a volunteer, as I would if I ever were to fly for pay. I have no problem with flying a little kid for Young Eagles, and letting them manipulate the controls under my direction when it's quiet and easy. When it isn't, I take over, but at no time am I not in charge, any more than the controller was not in charge at any time. I do everything I can to bring the passengers and my airplane back to terra firma in no worse shape than I found them. It takes concentration, training, and attention to detail. So does being an air traffic controller. There are slow times in both tasks, obviously, when the radio is utterly quiet. May I use this time to converse with my passenger? Maybe even joke or point out some scenery? I think so, but not if I'm in the soup 14 miles from a low approach. Can the controller chat with his girlfriend? Not if he has traffic on his scope. Can he invite his well-behaved kid to 'repeat after me' during a slow spell? Obviously, I don't have a problem with that. Like most people, I'd have a problem if he'd let the kid have any latitude for decisionmaking or room for judgment calls. As it was, it seems to me a completely harmless thing.

If everybody else is hyperventilating about it, it would seem more than sufficient that the powers that be should just quietly tell Dad what the rule from now on is and let it drop, so in that, I can agree even with those who think it was an egregious and stupid violation of regulations.

What do you bet, though, that somebody has to hang for this, preferably several somebodies? Substantial swaths of our populace seem to have a mighty vindictive blood lust these days, and only the poor miscreant's head on a pike will do. I do hope I'm wrong.

 

[EdFred]

And another notch in the loss column for analogies...
-harry

Yeah, I was trying to figure out how you equated one kid in the tower to 25 kids in a class room. Your fail count is becoming asymptotic. You may want to just leave the thread

 

[TMetzinger]

So, then, because a person's job to ensure the safety of thousands of travelers is shared with other people, therefore when he does something that diverts his attention from his duties in order to entertain his children while on the job, and some people say "he shouldn't be doing that, slap him on the wrist so he stops, and others understand not to do it", then these people are expressing hysteria?
-harry

What makes you think his attention was diverted?
How would this be different if he was supervising a trainee and not his child.
Please document your "facts" and explain your answers.

 

[flyersfan31]

What makes you think his attention was diverted?
How would this be different if he was supervising a trainee and not his child.
Please document your "facts" and explain your answers.

You mean, like an adult with a significant amount of training to begin with, versus a child off from elementary school for the day looking at all the pretty screens?

No, I can't see any difference in those scenarios.

 

[alaskaflyer]

What makes you think his attention was diverted?
How would this be different if he was supervising a trainee and not his child.

So...any difference between supervising a "trainee" and a child in my profession?

 

[alaskaflyer]

Perhaps as long as his dad was standing behind him...

 

[Clark1961]

So...any difference between supervising a "trainee" and a child in my profession?

No, absolutely none. Get mad all you want, it doesn't change anything...

 

[alaskaflyer]

No, absolutely none. Get mad all you want, it doesn't change anything...

No? Trainees (presumably) have an inherent capability to exercise judgement as an adult. Also, they possess the basic tools necessary to do the job, even as they increase in experience and training.

Don't get me wrong, I think this was a bit of harmless fun, but no one should be shocked at the consequences here and some of the rationalizations above are...well, just not rational.

 

[Clark1961]

No? Trainees (presumably) have an inherent capability to exercise judgement [sic] as an adult.

So you are saying that you don't have to closely supervise trainees?

 

[alaskaflyer]

So you are saying that you don't have to closely supervise trainees?

*Rereads post again* Nope, didn't say that.

Are you saying untrained elementary school age children have the same capabilities as untrained adults? Outside of programming home electronics, that is?

Or perhaps you are saying that an air traffic controller trainee fresh from their basic training and in their first day in the chair has no better capacity to handle tower duties than the average child?

 

[TMetzinger]

So...any difference between supervising a "trainee" and a child in my profession?

When all you are asking is for someone to "Repeat after me", I think you'll get better results from a child. An adult "trainee" is likely to know better than the trainer, or at least think so.

My point is that controllers who are senior (and by the accounts I've read this guy was the ATC equivalent of a CFI) are used to supervising someone else, and that's not considered a "distraction".

 

[dmccormack]

Or perhaps you are saying that an air traffic controller trainee fresh from their basic training and in their first day in the chair has no better capacity to handle tower duties than the average child?

The child in the case in point was not "handling tower duties."

He was simply delivering common, oft repeated phrases under the direction and supervision of the acting controller.

 

[TMetzinger]

No? Trainees (presumably) have an inherent capability to exercise judgement as an adult. Also, they possess the basic tools necessary to do the job, even as they increase in experience and training.

Don't get me wrong, I think this was a bit of harmless fun, but no one should be shocked at the consequences here and some of the rationalizations above are...well, just not rational.

Nobody was asking the kid to exercise judgement, that's the point.

Telling the kid 'The next six airplanes are yours" would have been a whole different story and more inline with what you appear to be implying.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Nobody was asking the kid to exercise judgement, that's the point.

Telling the kid 'The next six airplanes are yours" would have been a whole different story and more inline with what you appear to be implying.

No, the point of the controversy is that a child was speaking on the radio instead of a trained and authorized ATC'er

 

[SkyHog]

Or perhaps you are saying that an air traffic controller trainee fresh from their basic training and in their first day in the chair has no better capacity to handle tower duties than the average child?

Bingo. Really how hard could a job that is as regimented as ATC really be?

The hardest decision is whether its close enough to :50 to record the ATIS.

 

[Aztec Driver]

With all of this "banter" back and forth, no one has indicated whether the controller in question got supervisor's permission to do what he did. It would be unlikely that he could have brought his child into the tower cab and set him up at a station undetected, and allowed this to go on without someone at least asking if it was OK. Someone would have noticed and questioned him if they thought there would be any diminished capabilities.

And as far as taking children to work not being professional, that is simply not true at all. There are many professionals who take their children to work with them, many who have "important" jobs. I took both of my daughters to many of my jobs in the past, and they were under strict "professional" rules of conduct, not unlike what is heard in this recording. No one knows the preparation that went into this, so saying it is "unprofessional" is unjustified. On the other hand, IF rules that were known were broken, then some sort of punishment is warranted.

Someone please state the rules that were violated. You can't say that "unauthorized personnel are not permitted in the tower cab," because once they are admitted, they are authorized. Same with speaking on the radio. Once a person is admitted and allowed by the supervisor, they are "authorized."

 

[fgcason]

In my experience, children are a significantly greater distraction than coffee. Perhaps your experience differs.

That's totally dependent on the individual kid. They are not all identical.

I've known several kids over the years that should have been thrown into a running tree shredding machine head first to insure they don't survive if the machine were to jam or break down before it finished with them. To do less is borderline treason. Those are the ones you don't want anywhere near a tower or anything else for that matter..except for the inside of a running tree shredding machine.
OTOH, there are kids that are far far better behaved than most adults you'll ever meet. Those are the types that you can have in the tower every single day for years on end and even during an all out emergency and they won't be in the way at all.

If unconditional safety is the goal, where precisely should the line be drawn? At perfect controllers who don't have any fun at all because fun and anything less than absolute perfection is a bad thing? No matter what rules anyone implements or how gustappo anyone becomes, unconditional safety just isn't going to happen.

 

[Trapper John]

You mean, like an adult with a significant amount of training to begin with, versus a child off from elementary school for the day looking at all the pretty screens?

No, I can't see any difference in those scenarios.

How big is the stick in your butt?


Trapper John