Currency, Safety Pilot, & ATC

Cpt_Kirk

Cpt_Kirk

En-Route
Joined
Jan 20, 2014
Messages
3,296
Location
Georgia
Display Name
Display name:
Ted Striker
Pilot A is out of the 6-month currency but still able to go up in visual conditions with an appropriately-rated safety pilot. Pilot A does not need to contact ATC for vectors onto the practice IAP, correct? Can that be done by Pilot A himself? Can the safety pilot give vectors?
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
Pilot A is out of the 6-month currency but still able to go up in visual conditions with an appropriately-rated safety pilot. Pilot A does not need to contact ATC for vectors onto the practice IAP, correct? Can that be done by Pilot A himself? Can the safety pilot give vectors?
Click to expand...
Assuming we're not in Class B/C airspace, yes, that's legal. Might not be real smart (it's no fun when two or more planes are trying to shoot the same approach at the same time without being on the same frequency, and having ATC help sort it out really makes a difference), but it's certainly legal from both Part 91 and Part 61 perspectives.
 
Ted, I'm just curious, why would you want to get vectors from your safety pilot rather than ATC? What is the goal of the exercise?
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
Pilot A is out of the 6-month currency but still able to go up in visual conditions with an appropriately-rated safety pilot. Pilot A does not need to contact ATC for vectors onto the practice IAP, correct? Can that be done by Pilot A himself? Can the safety pilot give vectors?
Click to expand...

You never need to contact ATC to conduct practice approaches. It's perfectly fine to do them on your own.

It's also perfectly fine for a safety pilot to provide simulated ATC instructions. Problem is, simulated ATC instructions are a skill in itself and it can be had to find a safety pilot who can do it properly, using the appropriate verbiage, etc. Asking ATC for practice approaches is certainly easier.
 
coma24 said:
Ted, I'm just curious, why would you want to get vectors from your safety pilot rather than ATC? What is the goal of the exercise?
Click to expand...

In some places, ATC is too busy to provide the service. Its a particularily common problem around my neck of the woods.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
Pilot A is out of the 6-month currency but still able to go up in visual conditions with an appropriately-rated safety pilot. Pilot A does not need to contact ATC for vectors onto the practice IAP, correct? Can that be done by Pilot A himself? Can the safety pilot give vectors?
Click to expand...

We do it all the time for our quarterly training and annual part 135 rides in the 407. I'm on foggles and the IP is acting as safety pilot using the G500 for ATC vectoring purposes. Our aircraft isn't IFR equipped so we can't file and with TCAD there's really no need to contact ATC for traffic.

If it's an IFR aircraft, regardless of WX, I think the pilot would get more by planning and filing a flight plan or even at the very least, picking up a "local IFR" in the air.
 
Also, in some places, the ILS approach is at a non-towered airport.

No problem with your safety pilot playing ATC and giving you vectors to final.
 
Velocity173 said:
If it's an IFR aircraft, regardless of WX, I think the pilot would get more by planning and filing a flight plan or even at the very least, picking up a "local IFR" in the air.
Click to expand...
Except that in the OP scenario, pilot A is out of 6-month currency, so he can't accept an IFR clearance. Now if the safety pilot was willing to be legal PIC, that would actually be better practice, I agree.

(OTOH if the PF was very rusty, I might not want to be that safety pilot.)
 
Ron Levy said:
Assuming we're not in Class B/C airspace, yes, that's legal. Might not be real smart (it's no fun when two or more planes are trying to shoot the same approach at the same time without being on the same frequency, and having ATC help sort it out really makes a difference), but it's certainly legal from both Part 91 and Part 61 perspectives.
Click to expand...
Sounds good.

coma24 said:
Ted, I'm just curious, why would Pilot A want to get vectors from Pilot A's safety pilot rather than ATC? What is the goal of the exercise?
Click to expand...
FTFY. Ease of control, navigation, and coordination.

Brad Z said:
In some places, ATC is too busy to provide the service. Its a particularily common problem around my neck of the woods.
Click to expand...
This is similar to Pilot A.


Velocity173 said:
We do it all the time for our quarterly training and annual part 135 rides in the 407. I'm on foggles and the IP is acting as safety pilot using the G500 for ATC vectoring purposes. Our aircraft isn't IFR equipped so we can't file and with TCAD there's really no need to contact ATC for traffic.

If it's an IFR aircraft, regardless of WX, I think the pilot would get more by planning and filing a flight plan or even at the very least, picking up a "local IFR" in the air.
Click to expand...
Pilot A has done "Local IFR" in Florida (Class C), however, you have to be current in order to file and fly under an IFR flight plan. Had this not been the case, "Local IFR" would be the first choice for currency, every time.

MikeELP said:
Also, in some places, the ILS approach is at a non-towered airport.
Click to expand...
This is the case for Pilot A.
 
coma24 said:
Ted, I'm just curious, why would you want to get vectors from your safety pilot rather than ATC? What is the goal of the exercise?
Click to expand...

Isn't that what's commonly done on IR Checkrides?
 
Brad Z said:
You never need to contact ATC to conduct practice approaches. It's perfectly fine to do them on your own.

It's also perfectly fine for a safety pilot to provide simulated ATC instructions. Problem is, simulated ATC instructions are a skill in itself and it can be had to find a safety pilot who can do it properly, using the appropriate verbiage, etc. Asking ATC for practice approaches is certainly easier.
Click to expand...
I can give pretty good vectors as a safety pilot.
 
azure said:
Except that in the OP scenario, pilot A is out of 6-month currency, so he can't accept an IFR clearance. Now if the safety pilot was willing to be legal PIC, that would actually be better practice, I agree.

(OTOH if the PF was very rusty, I might not want to be that safety pilot.)
Click to expand...

Ops, forgot he wasn't current. Kinda the whole reason for the saftey pilot thing and VMC. Well, could still pick up vectors for practice approaches and remain VFR.
 
Are you looking to short cut part of the approach,by using safety pilot. Prefer to use ATC ,to make it as close as possible to real.
 
frfly172 said:
Are you looking to short cut part of the approach,by using safety pilot. Prefer to use ATC ,to make it as close as possible to real.
Click to expand...

Personally, I like to fly from an IAF. If an ILS has an arc, I'll fly the arc.

IMHO, FAF to MAP isn't doing yourself any good in the long run.
 
jordane93 said:
No. The examiner will usually call up approach and ask for practice approaches and missed approaches.
Click to expand...

Define usually. My DPE had me meet him at an airport outside of the DC SFRA specifically so we wouldn't have to talk to ATC during the check ride. He played the part of ATC the whole time.

On the flip side during training, I once called up Potomac TRACON VFR and asked for to shoot the ILS into Manassas. We were cleared into Class B and vectored onto the LOC. The only difference from doing under an IFR clearance was were directed remain in VFR conditions or something to that effect when he gave us our sqawk IIRC.
 
I fly safety pilot a lot for my instructors students. Class D tower where we shoot ILS closes at 7. I know what the controllers will do and just do this as if they were on freq.
 
jordane93 said:
No. The examiner will usually call up approach and ask for practice approaches and missed approaches.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't say "usually". I work with a wide range of DPE's around the eastern third of the country, and I'd say it's more an even split.
 
Ron Levy said:
Yes. Many DPE's prefer to leave ATC out of it so they can control the ride better.
Click to expand...

My IFR check ride was all with full ATC flight following guidance using VFR practice approaches. Did the same thing for most of training. Got all the vectors, clearances, holds and missed approaches just as we would being IFR just not under an IFR flight plan. DPE just told me which approach he wanted and I did the rest with ATC. Guess every examiner can be different.
 
The guy who gave me my ride (at an uncontrolled field), played ATC mostly because it let him run his very tight sequence of getting everything in the PTS in as short a time possible. My checkride was fast and furious.
 
The PIC instructor I used didn't know anything about the DPE I was to used other than he was OK. We showed up at the field KSHD to do some approaches (figured that chances are I was going to get at least one at the field we started/finished at). Ran into the examiner and did a little intelligence of our own. We introduced ourselves and I asked his weight for flight planning purposes and if there was anything he wanted me specifically to prepare before the ride started. He volunteered plenty of information as to how he did instrument rides (most specifically that I could expect all the approaches to be done at KSHD) and told me to plan a trip from SHD to ORF.
 
jordane93 said:
No. The examiner will usually call up approach and ask for practice approaches and missed approaches.
Click to expand...

It depends on the area. Our local DPE won't call up ATC because he needs to talk to the Canadian controllers and they don't give radar services for practice approaches, even though the A/P is in the US. The DPE will vector, give clearances, and hold instructions since he briefs the entire flight before hand so the applicant can get the necessary plates, etc.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Oh, I fully understand. Teach to proficiency then teach to the examiner.
Click to expand...
You got it. Some of them demand more than proficiency, including some really interesting series of events that even an experienced instrument pilot might find difficult to execute without some prior practice. And some ask some really off-the-wall questions, like why the GPS MEA on a particular airway is lower than the regular MEA but higher than the MOCA -- not exactly required knowledge to be a safe instrument pilot as long as you know what each item is and use it properly.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top