Cross Country Flights and GPS or VOR Tracking

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muleywannabe

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Cherokee235
As we approach cross country flights with my instructor, I wonder this...

*I will use a disclaimer first though, my instructor is teaching me maps and VOR tracking and using the E6B etc. we will not use a GPS for our training and I think this is important for the reason of what if...your batteries quit, your GPS quits, etc.*

How many of you have been taught to use the VOR and maps for long cross countries, VFR, yet you now use only a GPS? It seems like to me that the future of aviation is gravitating towards the use of GPS over any human related flight planning etc.
 
Learn the VOR and maps.. use GPS later.

Learning how to track a radial and use the VOR system is 100% relevant if you ever want to get your instrument rating.

Also, you'll need to demonstrate proficiency on the PP practical exam. Finally, VOR's compasses and maps are installed in most every airplane you'll fly. There's no good excuse for not learning how to operate common navigation instruments.
 
VFR only - GPS can be had for $150 in a used tablet and Avare for free. You fly direct, not VOR or NDB hopping, more accurate, and it's got DME built in.

IFR - GPS approaches are at almost every airport, and a lot even have WAAS. Plus you can file direct.

What's not to love about GPS?
 
I used GPS from the start, because all training airplanes were so equipped. Those weren't moving map GPS units, just ones that displayed position and course to a waypoint. I don't think my training suffered as a result.

Another thing, I see a lot of dead VORs nowadays. Sometimes they are located so I do not have coverage for 80 nm or more (like last time the PUB went down). Good thing I could just stick with the course in that case. But GPS is pretty much the thing even today.

I think you should ask your instructor to navigate with ADF, if your airplane has it (only one of my FBO's trainers did). Those are still used in international flying and will continue for a while yet.
 
I know how to do them all (VOR ADF DME). It was required for training and some for the checkride.

I use only GPS. The magenta line has never given me a calculation error and never accidentally been set to "to" instead of "from" by mistake, etc

I have a kln94 GPS which I love and I have foreflight on my iPad mini.
I always get flight following.

As an additional backup, I have a few apps on my phone.

I carry a sectional for shade when the plane is parked ;) and I use the ADF to listen to my favorite AM stations.

Honestly I have trouble imagining a scenario where I would need to complete a flight using a VOR. If my electrical system gets fried, I'm going to land the plane.

But know how to do that stuff incase you fly through a time portal and end up in the 1940s so you can pass your checkride though.


Edit: If that doesn't bring EdFred back, nothing will.
 
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So, from what I am seeing, the majority of you use a GPS now. My plane does have an ADF, its old school but kinda cool. thanks for the responses. I am sure the majority of you could use the VOR if you had to in an emergency case, but lets say your VOR quit working or the DME or ADF, quit working...good thing there is a GPS for backup, right>?
 
muleywannabe said:
So, from what I am seeing, the majority of you use a GPS now. My plane does have an ADF, its old school but kinda cool. thanks for the responses. I am sure the majority of you could use the VOR if you had to in an emergency case, but lets say your VOR quit working or the DME or ADF, quit working...good thing there is a GPS for backup, right>?
Click to expand...

I suspect a large majority of pilots use foreflight is their primary means of navigation.
 
muleywannabe said:
How many of you have been taught to use the VOR and maps for long cross countries, VFR, yet you now use only a GPS? It seems like to me that the future of aviation is gravitating towards the use of GPS over any human related flight planning etc.
Click to expand...

I primarialy use WingX when I fly. I have it on my iPad on the yoke and also on my iPhone as a backup. I do turn my VOR receiver on every month or two to check it out to ensure it is still working correctly just in case my GPS became unavailavle for some reason. That has not been the case for the past four or five years. Even though I keep a paper sectional and paper airport directory in my plane, I have not used either in years. My iPads and WingX have been very reliable. I also have an iLevil to provide ADS-B weather and AHRS information to my synth vision screen. So yes, I can navigate without WingX but I have to admit that I love flying with it. With WingX I am able to fly direct efficient routes and I know it has saved enough in gas costs to pay for itself several times over.
 
+1 for me too.

dell30rb said:
Learn the VOR and maps.. use GPS later.

Learning how to track a radial and use the VOR system is 100% relevant if you ever want to get your instrument rating.

Also, you'll need to demonstrate proficiency on the PP practical exam. Finally, VOR's compasses and maps are installed in most every airplane you'll fly. There's no good excuse for not learning how to operate common navigation instruments.
Click to expand...
 
I pretty much let NDB go by the end of instrument training (and pulled the ADF from the plane) in favor of a then-brand-new box called the GNS-430. I might still be able to fly an NDB as I used to do a lot of RF direction finding in the past, but would probably require a bit of work to become proficient. But there aren't a lot left in this part of the world.

VOR is a different matter. Still keep proficient & still use them. Generally practice at least one VOR approach (or more) as part of IPCs. And note that one usually-assigned departure routing (as opposed to DP) from home airport involves flying a radial from a VOR to intercept an airway (not a fix on the airway).
 
I split a flight with another recently ppl'd buddy this weekend. I had the 430 going along with my Nexus7/Garmin Pilot along with my iPhone/Garmin Pilot. I know it's hard to believe, but yes, we got to where we wanted to go using those.

oh, and I did have a sectional stuffed at the bottom of my backpack, I think.
 
Learn to use everything in the plane. Don't let your CFI skimp on teaching you the GPS use on your XC training.

I was tested on GPS use during my PP Practical.
 
muleywannabe said:
As we approach cross country flights with my instructor, I wonder this...



*I will use a disclaimer first though, my instructor is teaching me maps and VOR tracking and using the E6B etc. we will not use a GPS for our training and I think this is important for the reason of what if...your batteries quit, your GPS quits, etc.*



How many of you have been taught to use the VOR and maps for long cross countries, VFR, yet you now use only a GPS? It seems like to me that the future of aviation is gravitating towards the use of GPS over any human related flight planning etc.
Click to expand...


When I learned to fly, the true intent of VFR navigation was through the usage of ded reckoning and pilotage. The VOR & NDB technologies were there to provide backup in case I was lost. I spent many hours calculating routes & determining visual checkpoints.

When GPS technology became available, it made for a logical backup over even the NDB and VORs. But in the early days of GPS the portables and their batteries did die and I was left with the basics.

It may be old methods, but it sure was great when my ETA over a visual checkpoint was spot on.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Learn to use everything in the plane.
Click to expand...
I'd say learn to navigate without anything in the plane. Even a VOR can go T/U or give out bad info. Learn by pilotage, then dead reckoning, then the convenience gizmos after you know how to navigate.

dtuuri
 
On my student XC solo, I used the gear in the plane to backup what my eyes made out from my paper flight plan and my paper chart.
 
I found dead reckoning and pilotage enjoyable. Gave you something to do sitting alone on those XCs.

But by the end of my training, I was using the GPS mostly. My check ride did include me setting a diversion via the GPS before it "breaking" and having to intercept a radial.

Since getting my ticket? GPS, autopilot, and I have my iPhone as a backup for navigation. I keep a paper chart in the plane just in case I need to locate a nearby station.
 
I can count the number of times my GPS (either a panel mount 430 or Ipad running Foreflight) has crapped out on me on one hand.

But the next time it happens I'll need two hands. Yes these things go down. Heat, satellite positioning, interference, etc... rare but it happens. Be prepared for your fallback. There is no learning curve to speak of for a VFR GPS. I think you should train using your VORs. With no moving map and magenta line, you're forced to gain an independent sense of situational awareness. The time to learn how to how to use your VORs is right now, not when you're in the cockpit by yourself in MVFR trying to remember how to figure out what the to/from flags mean because you forgot that part of your training.
 
I learned to fly when the latest thing was-Gasp ! DME, magic. :) Learned to use basic VOR but mostly drew the course on a sectional and then aligned the sectional with the mile section roads on the ground. (Eastern Nebraska) now I use whatever is available.
 
muleywannabe said:
As we approach cross country flights with my instructor, I wonder this...

*I will use a disclaimer first though, my instructor is teaching me maps and VOR tracking and using the E6B etc. we will not use a GPS for our training and I think this is important for the reason of what if...your batteries quit, your GPS quits, etc.*

How many of you have been taught to use the VOR and maps for long cross countries, VFR, yet you now use only a GPS? It seems like to me that the future of aviation is gravitating towards the use of GPS over any human related flight planning etc.
Click to expand...

GPS is the wave of the '90s. Everyone uses it now... except during training! :D

Yeah you still have to learn pilotage, dead reckoning, VORs, nav logs and RTD calculations the old school way because that makes you a much better pilot in command as opposed to a button pusher who freaks out when the gadgetry fails.

You have an advantage over some of us who learned pre-GPS... as soon as you get your cert you will probably use GPS all the time and you should because it is more accurate and it makes planning much easier and improves SA. GPS is how the vast majority of flights are conducted outside the training world. Add an autopilot and life is easy.

I don't carry paper any longer, but I do carry a backup ipad.
 
petrolero said:
GPS is the wave of the '90s. Everyone uses it now... except during training! :D

Yeah you still have to learn pilotage, dead reckoning, VORs, nav logs and RTD calculations the old school way because that makes you a much better pilot in command as opposed to a button pusher who freaks out when the gadgetry fails.

You have an advantage over some of us who learned pre-GPS... as soon as you get your cert you will probably use GPS all the time and you should because it is more accurate and it makes planning much easier and improves SA. GPS is how the vast majority of flights are conducted outside the training world. Add an autopilot and life is easy.

I don't carry paper any longer, but I do carry a backup ipad.
Click to expand...

I will point out that GPS is more fragile than most folks think.
 
I'm a qualified celestial navigator, but I might need a few weeks of HOMOTO review if the Aliens wipe out the GPS constellation or the FAA engages in further time travel. The Archer that I fly will need a sextant port, the Cardinal, with it's greater upward visibility might suffice with a hand held sextant while we save up for the Garmin 999 Star Tracker.

Seriously, the gps is notam'd out from time to time, and in any case a good pilot uses all available aids.

When IFR I usually fly with the GPS on the #1 CDI, and track it with the STEC-30. If on a leg defined by a Victor airway I put the appropriate VOR settings into the second nav radio as a crosscheck and back up.

The STEC can't track a VOR for crap, but works well on a GPS or Localizer signal.

VFR I look at a planning chart and figure the most direct possible, routing around TFR's, Restricted Areas, etc. I follow the GPS and back it up by looking at the VFR chart depiction on my iPad or Nexus and match what is shown on the tablet to what I see on the ground as my backup.
 
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muleywannabe said:
How many of you have been taught to use the VOR and maps for long cross countries, VFR, yet you now use only a GPS?
Click to expand...
That would pretty much be me, although now and then I turn off the GPS (including the little blue plane on ForeFlight), "draw" an electronic line on the e-sectional, and finger navigate my way where I'm going.
It seems like to me that the future of aviation is gravitating towards the use of GPS over any human related flight planning etc.
Click to expand...
GPS does not have anything to do with flight planning. However, computers and e-charts are definitely replacing plotters and E6-B's for coming up with time, heading, distance, fuel, etc, during preflight planning. Likewise, DUATS and the other internet-based briefing systems are replacing phone calls and have replaced visits to the FSS for weather/NOTAM briefings. Good? Bad? :dunno: That's just the way it is in the 21st century.
 
Just be careful crossing southern New Mexico and Arizona. That's where the AF and Army fiddle with GPS. I assume the Navy does it too, but don't know where.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I suspect a large majority of pilots use foreflight is their primary means of navigation.
Click to expand...

Bingo! I've been flying non gps equipped 172's for about 2 months now. They are 20 dollars an hour less. Foreflight is an amazing app. No need for much else for me!

I did learn VOR's and could use them if required but I don't tune identify and twist very often! ;)
 
Dead reckoning, pilotage, and VOR's for primary training. Mostly GPS post private license. VOR's and GPS for IFR. I like to switch between a /U plane and /G for IFR. My instructor had me do one of my x countries via VOR's, cross radials, etc and no GPS. I like to be proficient in both
 
When I fly with the wife. .I use GPS for her sanity.
When it is me and 'the boys'.. we turn off the GPS..
I love the old school VOR:VOR navigation and pilotage.
 
I'm learning with both. On my first dual XC and solo XC I used dead reckoning and VOR nav going and then KLN94 plus ForeFlight coming back. It doesn't make much sense not to practice using it if you can manage it. I know the majority of my flights will be navigated using GPS with VOR/etc as backup.

The caveat is the iPad can trap your eyes inside the cockpit. Get comfortable with the GPS/iPad/etc. ahead of time and watch out for that.
 
On long cross countries, I use GPS because it makes things easier, but I still have a paper sectional and follow along to keep up generally with my position. I like redundancy, though. I have had enough problems with computers that I don't want to totally put my life in "their" hands.
 
I learned on steam gauges 2 years ago because it made more sense as there are more planes out there with those. When I fly now I do all three. Magenta Line on the phone, vor to find position, and pilotage. Why not it keeps all your skills sharp
 
Ron Levy said:
That would pretty much be me, although now and then I turn off the GPS (including the little blue plane on ForeFlight), "draw" an electronic line on the e-sectional, and finger navigate my way where I'm going.
Click to expand...

I personally think this is silly. I don't practice reciting the alphabet or multiplication tables either.

I fly with my GPS and have no question of my ability to do without. I learned VOR-VOR navigation using a paper chart in HS and that is my default. When I started flight training, I knew nothing of GPS until my instructor started playing with the box underneath the MX-20 and I wanted to know more about what it did.
 
A funny thing happened once.
We had a couple guys land at our airport.

They hopped out of the plane and said "Our GPS went out. What airport is this?"
 
It's good to know how to start a fire by rubbing two sticks together, but if you have a box of matches, you'd be crazy to keep it as a backup. Your instructor is doing well to make sure you're grounded in the fundamentals of map reading and navigating, but just like everyone else I fly by GPS and a moving map sectional display. I know where I am and usually have a VOR tuned just for sanity check, but nothing more.

There's also nothing wrong with occasionally flying VOR only, or even dead reckoning only (depending on airspace restrictions in your area) to do it the "old fashioned way" as practice or even for fun. But for everyday flying point-to-point? For me it's GPS all the way.
 
muleywannabe said:
As we approach cross country flights with my instructor, I wonder this...

*I will use a disclaimer first though, my instructor is teaching me maps and VOR tracking and using the E6B etc. we will not use a GPS for our training and I think this is important for the reason of what if...your batteries quit, your GPS quits, etc.*

How many of you have been taught to use the VOR and maps for long cross countries, VFR, yet you now use only a GPS? It seems like to me that the future of aviation is gravitating towards the use of GPS over any human related flight planning etc.
Click to expand...

Batteries? Laughing. A panel mount GPS is double backed up by the gernator/alternators and the battery, just as the other avionics.

Has anyone ever heard anyone complain, oh gosh, I lost my GPS? No.
 
CTLSi said:
Batteries? Laughing. A panel mount GPS is double backed up by the gernator/alternators and the battery, just as the other avionics.

Has anyone ever heard anyone complain, oh gosh, I lost my GPS? No.
Click to expand...

The Garmin 430 GPS in one of my flight school's planes likes to stop working for no apparent reason, for long stretches of time, and sometimes resets itself randomly and takes the radio down too for a few minutes. Annoying.
 
my friend borrowed my plane, and I forgot to tell him that the GPS card was at my house being updated. He had to use a VOR. lol
 
CTLSi said:
Batteries? Laughing. A panel mount GPS is double backed up by the gernator/alternators and the battery, just as the other avionics.

Has anyone ever heard anyone complain, oh gosh, I lost my GPS? No.
Click to expand...

register@teamandras.com said:
The Garmin 430 GPS in one of my flight school's planes likes to stop working for no apparent reason, for long stretches of time, and sometimes resets itself randomly and takes the radio down too for a few minutes. Annoying.
Click to expand...

I've had 430's in rental planes go out as well. I don't actually have a panel mount GPS in my own plane, so I use an IPAD with Foreflight for my navigation GPS. It's prone to shutting down from heat on hot days. Just happened to me over the weekend. Gosh, I had to look out the window.

And not that I particularly needed it, but there was a VOR ready to go just in case. Two of them actually.

The only time I feel a little nekkid without a GPS if if I'm operating in close proximity to busy airspace. If I'm chart nav, I'll give it wider berth than if I'm using a GPS.
 
muleywannabe said:
As we approach cross country flights with my instructor, I wonder this...

*I will use a disclaimer first though, my instructor is teaching me maps and VOR tracking and using the E6B etc. we will not use a GPS for our training and I think this is important for the reason of what if...your batteries quit, your GPS quits, etc.*

How many of you have been taught to use the VOR and maps for long cross countries, VFR, yet you now use only a GPS? It seems like to me that the future of aviation is gravitating towards the use of GPS over any human related flight planning etc.
Click to expand...
I think your instructor is taking a wise track, but maybe for a little different reason that people have yet said here:

Using conventional nav aids and using pilotage requires that you develop a good sense of urgency for situational awareness. You will develop the habit of always knowing where you are, especially relative to important things like airports, airspace, tall towers, and cities. If something bad happens, you will not have to fiddle with the GPS or a tablet to figure out where you are. You will also not be clueless about the airport codes that pop up on the NRST screen. You will also not risk bumbling into restricted or controlled airspace or crashing into a tower because you didn't notice the warning flashing on the GPS.

If you train with a GPS, I don't think this kind of sensitivity to situational awareness develops. I often fly with guys who just punch the Direct-To and motor along completely clueless as to where they are and what is around them. All they know is ETE and the destination airport code. IMO this is A Bad Thing.

All the other reasons cited here for starting with conventional nav tools are sound, but I think that developing an urgency for situational awareness during your training is the best one.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
The Garmin 430 GPS in one of my flight school's planes likes to stop working for no apparent reason, for long stretches of time, and sometimes resets itself randomly and takes the radio down too for a few minutes. Annoying.
Click to expand...

That's an equipment issue, not a GPS systems issue. My Garmin 796 has never burped once in 20 cross country trips.

Btw, consider how inefficient it is flying Victor airways ping/ponging between VORs? Yikes, double you distance and still fear the congestion at those choke points.
 
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