Crash near me

overdrive148 said:
That's some chilling audio indeed. :(
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MIHOKO TABATA

2-91-2-201 OTA
YAOSI 5810037
Country: JAPAN
Medical
Medical Class: Third, Medical Date: 8/2014
MUST WEAR CORRECTIVE LENSES.
Certificates
COMMERCIAL PILOT
Date of Issue: 4/14/2010
Certificate: COMMERCIAL PILOT
Ratings:
COMMERCIAL PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND
INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE

Limits:
ENGLISH PROFICIENT.
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That audio and her ratings, at reportedly 400 hrs total time logged, are in clear and complete contradiction.
I have heard audio from non-pilot passengers with an incapacitated pilot that sounded much more professional.
I'd love to hear what the CFIs and DPEs that signed off on her endorsements and ratings have to say, including about that final bolded bit.
 
N801BH said:
And she crashed in a little bit of fog ????
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Well, we don't know how much actual IMC she had. It could be a severe vertigo attack or the AI packed it in (I heard of such things happened, but the crash was on land and NTSB determined that AI was dead from bits they found). Of course if you're rated, you're suppoed to deal with partial panel, but you know how difficult that is in practice.
 
RotorDude said:
I'd love to hear what the CFIs and DPEs that signed off on her endorsements and ratings have to say, including about that final bolded bit.
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I know this - I'd sure hate to have my signature anywhere in her logbook.
 
RotorDude said:
That audio and her ratings, at reportedly 400 hrs total time logged, are in clear and complete contradiction.
I have heard audio from non-pilot passengers with an incapacitated pilot that sounded much more professional.
I'd love to hear what the CFIs and DPEs that signed off on her endorsements and ratings have to say, including about that final bolded bit.
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The bolded part she had to pass a third party test as well. The scary thing is, she probably passed the test that she had to take to get that. We didn't take the test at the grace of being native speakers. What you heard is indicative of what English Proficient means in the non English speaking world.
 
Henning said:
We didn't take the test at the grace of being native speakers.
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I'm not a native speaker, but I didn't take the test either. My DPE didn't ask anything about it, although my accent is obviously rather thick. I never even bothered to research the proficiency requirements. I have to say that hearing unfamiliar ATC instructions often confuses me. Every time I when I heard requests to maintain maximum forward speed, back-taxi after landing, exit to a high-speed taxiway, exit to intersecting runway, I had to request clarifications.

When I flew a glider in Japan, the ATC communications were done in rather passable English. I've not heard a word in Japanese in the air.
 
zaitcev said:
When I flew a glider in Japan, the ATC communications were done in rather passable English. I've not heard a word in Japanese in the air.
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ummm, we occupied Japan....
 
DFH65 said:
Something doesn't seem right here.





So she wasn't checked out but had the keys??????????????

Having said that if they have her log book that should give some more information like if she has flown this plane solo before.
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The club I belong to has around 70 planes. More than 50 of them are keyed alike to make it easier for everyone. There are many planes in the fleet that I'm not checked out in and almost as many that I'm certainly not qualified to fly, yet I have the keys to them. Coincidentally the 150 is one of them.
 
rchamble said:
I think this is the companies effort at thwarting liability lawsuits!!
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I was able to chat with some folks on at the airport yesterday and sadly this seems to be accurate. The story I got was that she was checked out earlier in the day and was cleared to use the aircraft. Now the company is going quiet to head off any liability...
 
There's no test to take for the "English Proficient", and especially in Florida this term can be used very vaguely.
I've spent alot of time in the foreign pilot mills in Florida, and sometimes you see people come in for hour building that are quite frankly shocking.
There was one guy from southern Europe, who took 30 hours before the school gave him his BFR for the 61.75. And he had a EASA Frozen ATPL from that same school.

The R/T can be scary too. I remember doing our night XC and touch and go stuff at KMLB, where there was an Asian pilot on the air who absolutely no-one could understand. His RT was so bad the ATC asked if he had an instructor on board, and then said the instructor will handle the radio from now on.
I am his school found him a DPE who gets enough business from that school to consider that "proficient".

So, yes it is entirely possible that you can have a 400+ hour commercial pilot, who will crash and die the second they end up in a crappy situation, and isn't proficient enough to communicate his troubles beforehand.
Sad.
 
mtuomi said:
There's no test to take for the "English Proficient", and especially in Florida this term can be used very vaguely.
I've spent alot of time in the foreign pilot mills in Florida, and sometimes you see people come in for hour building that are quite frankly shocking.
There was one guy from southern Europe, who took 30 hours before the school gave him his BFR for the 61.75. And he had a EASA Frozen ATPL from that same school.

The R/T can be scary too. I remember doing our night XC and touch and go stuff at KMLB, where there was an Asian pilot on the air who absolutely no-one could understand. His RT was so bad the ATC asked if he had an instructor on board, and then said the instructor will handle the radio from now on.
I am his school found him a DPE who gets enough business from that school to consider that "proficient".

So, yes it is entirely possible that you can have a 400+ hour commercial pilot, who will crash and die the second they end up in a crappy situation, and isn't proficient enough to communicate his troubles beforehand.
Sad.
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Those pilot schools don't care if their students can speak fluent english.. Their #1 concern is if the students check will clear the bank....

I too have heard POOR language in Fla and the Phoenix area and I always shake my head in disbelief on how an instructor would let pilots even start the motor, never the less fly when you cannot understand a word they say..

This is strictly my opinion but looking at that gal who died and how well groomed she looked in her Boeing Type rating pic is, she was well funded by someone ( her family , government. sugar daddy ) ???? It clearly shows that time and money will NOT buy a safe pilot... Better to have her crash by herself then take out a commercial plane full of paying passengers... IMHO..

Sorry if that comment seems cold and harsh..
 
N801BH said:
Those pilot schools don't care if their students can speak fluent english.. Their #1 concern is if the students check will clear the bank....

I too have heard POOR language in Fla and the Phoenix area and I always shake my head in disbelief on how an instructor would let pilots even start the motor, never the less fly when you cannot understand a word they say..

This is strictly my opinion but looking at that gal who died and how well groomed she looked in her Boeing Type rating pic is, she was well funded by someone ( her family , government. sugar daddy ) ???? It clearly shows that time and money will NOT buy a safe pilot... Better to have her crash by herself then take out a commercial plane full of paying passengers... IMHO..

Sorry if that comment seems cold and harsh..
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Sad thing is, those schools also will find DPEs who only care about the brown envelope containing practical test fees in cash, usually 50 bucks more than other DPEs charge in the area. Those DPEs are happy to say the candidates are English Proficient, and perform the practical test satisfactory.

In that area, I could name a few.
 
mtuomi said:
There's no test to take for the "English Proficient", and especially in Florida this term can be used very vaguely.
I've spent alot of time in the foreign pilot mills in Florida, and sometimes you see people come in for hour building that are quite frankly shocking.
There was one guy from southern Europe, who took 30 hours before the school gave him his BFR for the 61.75. And he had a EASA Frozen ATPL from that same school.

The R/T can be scary too. I remember doing our night XC and touch and go stuff at KMLB, where there was an Asian pilot on the air who absolutely no-one could understand. His RT was so bad the ATC asked if he had an instructor on board, and then said the instructor will handle the radio from now on.
I am his school found him a DPE who gets enough business from that school to consider that "proficient".

So, yes it is entirely possible that you can have a 400+ hour commercial pilot, who will crash and die the second they end up in a crappy situation, and isn't proficient enough to communicate his troubles beforehand.
Sad.
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There is most certainly a test to take for "English Proficient".

http://www.englishforaviation.com/ICAO-requirements.php
 
From the general eligibility requirements;

"(c) Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. If the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements due to medical reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating limitations on that applicant’s pilot certificate as are necessary for the safe operation of the aircraft."

The DPE establishes required language proficiency, and sadly, DPEs especially around big foreign pilot factories, seem pretty corrupt about this.
 
zaitcev said:
Well, we don't know how much actual IMC she had. It could be a severe vertigo attack or the AI packed it in (I heard of such things happened, but the crash was on land and NTSB determined that AI was dead from bits they found). Of course if you're rated, you're suppoed to deal with partial panel, but you know how difficult that is in practice.
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flying without and ai should be a none issue. you still have a dg and a turn coordinator to keep wings levels and an alt/vsi and asi to fly straight.
 
Henning said:
Is that true for non native speakers?:confused:
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Yes it is, my cert says that and I've never taken any tests.

I also know a couple of people whom with I can not hold a conversation, who are the same, "proficient".
 
As far as I've understood it, the DPE confirms the applicant is proficient. If not, I don't know if he can send the applicant to a language test, or if there can be a "seulement francais"-type of limitation in his FAA certificate.
 
Henning said:
Is that true for non native speakers?:confused:
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As long as they hold a certificate from the US that is true. Their English proficiency is determined by the DPE or FAA examiner, not by a test like in some other countries where English is not the normal spoken language. Maybe in some instances the DPE would administer a test but it is not a requirement. Some countries do not require their pilots to speak English. They just can't fly in other ICAO countries unless they do.
 
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guardrail said:
I was able to chat with some folks on at the airport yesterday and sadly this seems to be accurate. The story I got was that she was checked out earlier in the day and was cleared to use the aircraft. Now the company is going quiet to head off any liability...
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Anyone want to bet that they were also hammering on about their mandatory 6 flying hours a day minimum for hour-building pilots, making her feel that she absolutely had to fly that night?

All aircraft are dispatched to you the time builder upon you receiving your FAA PPL and the completion of your ground and flight checkout as necessary. After this time you are then the proud “owner” of the aircraft till you are done with your time block which we do look for a minimum of 6 hours per day or approximately 36 hours per week, we do not have a published maximum per day however you will know your abilities and safety is of utmost concern
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Katamarino said:
Anyone want to bet that they were also hammering on about their mandatory 6 flying hours a day minimum for hour-building pilots, making her feel that she absolutely had to fly that night?
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Oh, obviously. If they don't fly they lose their slot. Business as usual in the hour building industry.
 
Henning said:
Is that true for non native speakers?:confused:
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Yes, it is (or at least was until recently). I am German and was not even an US resident when I got my ticket almost 5 years ago. I was told that if someone is able to pass the written, the oral and the practical test, it can be reasonably assumed his English skills are proficient.

While I understand the idea behind this and generally agree with it, I still wonder how some foreign pilots, especially Asian, ever got their tickets. Quite a few of them are hardly able to have the most simple conversation. How are they able to answer the complex questions a DPE asks in the oral? Whoever flew out of Deer Valley or a similar airport with a lot of Asian students, probably knows what I mean... ;) :rolleyes: :eek: :hairraise:
 
German guy said:
While I understand the idea behind this and generally agree with it, I still wonder how some foreign pilots, especially Asian, ever got their tickets. Quite a few of them are hardly able to have the most simple conversation. How are they able to answer the complex questions a DPE asks in the oral? Whoever flew out of Deer Valley or a similar airport with a lot of Asian students, probably knows what I mean... ;) :rolleyes: :eek: :hairraise:
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The questions aren't that complex when the DPE does 5 PP checkrides a week for the same school, and knows if he starts failing them, they will call other DPEs in the area.
They make 100k+ in cash p/a, that sort of money makes asking complex questions hard...
 
Has anyone seen a transcript? I can pick up pieces of what she's saying but ?????

After listening to it all, I wonder if the controller's wordiness helped in this case? If I were the one disoriented in the clouds her message would have been reassuring, if I didn't speak English well it might have been overwhelming. :dunno:
 
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Everskyward said:
As long as they hold a certificate from the US that is true. Their English proficiency is determined by the DPE or FAA examiner, not by a test like in some other countries where English is not the normal spoken language. Maybe in some instances the DPE would administer a test but it is not a requirement. Some countries do not require their pilots to speak English. They just can't fly in other ICAO countries unless they do.
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Interesting, that is a serious flaw in the execution of the system. Non native speakers should be required the ICAO test regardless.
 
mtuomi said:
The questions aren't that complex when the DPE does 5 PP checkrides a week for the same school, and knows if he starts failing them, they will call other DPEs in the area.
They make 100k+ in cash p/a, that sort of money makes asking complex questions hard...
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Which is why it shouldn't be implemented in such a fashion that the question exists at all, that was half the intent behind the global convention.
 
Henning said:
Interesting, that is a serious flaw in the execution of the system. Non native speakers should be required the ICAO test regardless.
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The idea is that the DPE conducts the testing as required. ICAO level 4 is not hard.
Unfortunately a DPE who has a brown envelope with 5 Ben Franklins in it in front of him, has a tendency to understand certain accents better than others.

Same problem with the ICAO tests. Just fly around Spain and listen to the "level 4" they have there...
 
According to several articles in the news, most Asian airlines, including Air China, train their pilots in the US. For example: http://articles.latimes.com/1993-06-27/news/mn-7709_1_pilots-air-france-jal

Now, search Youtube for ‘ATC Air China JFK’. You’ll find several recordings which are at the same time creepy, hilarious and funny.
And these guys already made it all the way into the cockpit of an internationally operating airliner.
This one is my favorite: http://youtu.be/Ru8IbRaHC2g :D :hairraise:
 
cirrusmx said:
flying without and ai should be a none issue. you still have a dg and a turn coordinator to keep wings levels and an alt/vsi and asi to fly straight.
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Depending on the failure mode, loss of the AI can be extremely disorienting and has claimed many pilots.

It is decidedly NOT like having an instructor reach over and covering it.
 
Also if you lose your AI on most GA planes, the chances are better than even that you have lost the DG as well. Typically they are both vacuum driven, and the drive coupler on the vacuum pump is the weak link in the system and most common point of failure. When you lose it, you lose all the vacuum. Not saying this is unmanageable, I did 38 of my 40 hrs instrument training with the AI and DG covered, all cross country.

She was not well prepared, and her death is on the instructors and examiners who passed her along anyway, because that is how they make a paycheck. Some pay checks should be declined.
 
cirrusmx said:
flying without and ai should be a none issue.
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Recognizing that it is malfunctioning or has failed completely, and you need to switch your scan to the TC is the issue. Ever watched an AI "roll over" and found yourself wanting to follow it? Forcing your brain to ignore it "if" you recognize that it has malfunctioned is another issue. Connecting the fact that an underlying vacuum issue is also causing your DG to malfunction and you need to switch your scan to the MC is yet another issue.

Assuming that you have successfully blocked the AI and DG from your scan without inverting yourself, and you are flying on the TC and MC...have you ever tried this in hard IMC to get you to a place where you can successfully land? It is damned hard.

Every Instrument pilot should train for this every time they are flying under the hood at least 50% of the time.
 
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Wouldn't attaching a short string/weight in the cockpit be a good measure of which way is up? ...then again, Bob Hoover drinking while flying would pretty much invalidate that idea wouldn't it?
 
ggroves said:
Recognizing that it is malfunctioning or has failed completely, and you need to switch your scan to the TC is the issue. Forcing your brain to ignore it "if" you recognize that it has malfunctioned is another issue. Connecting the fact that an underlying vacuum issue is also causing your DG to malfunction and you need to switch your scan to the MC is yet another issue.

Assuming that you have successfully blocked the AI and DG from your scan without inverting yourself, and you are flying on the TC and MC...have you ever tried this in hard IMC to get you to a place where you can successfully land? It is damned hard.
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Yep, in fact, it sucks, but it is manageable if you are prepared. The issue here is she was unprepared for what she was rated to encounter, and had beed tested multiple times and found to be prepared.

This is what raises some questions. Did she react poorly and disassociate, a situation that would have ended the same regardless of preparedness; or was she truly unprepared. That she was talking to ATC indicates that she wasn't fully gone, and her speech says she was unprepared on multiple venues.

I would be interested in seeing the details of her training record. Was she in a "zero to hero" all in house 141 program or something similarly structured under Pt61?:dunno: This is the question I am most curious about.
 
"After listening to it all, I wonder if the controller's wordiness helped in this case? If I were the one disoriented in the clouds her message would have been reassuring, if I didn't speak English well it might have been overwhelming."

I agree completely. It was obvious the girl could only understand very primitive English yet the controller swarmed her with words in her downhome cracker accent - difficult enough for even native speakers to understand sometimes. She should have slowed her speech. She should have given the student a heading and altitude, repeating it until it was acknowledged on her display, and shut up about anything else until she had the student stabilized.

Hopefully the controller will learn something from this sad event. Seems like intuitive common sense would have kicked in.

Hindsight I know, but still . . . controllers are paid to think as well as talk.
 
MikeS said:
"After listening to it all, I wonder if the controller's wordiness helped in this case? If I were the one disoriented in the clouds her message would have been reassuring, if I didn't speak English well it might have been overwhelming."

I agree completely. It was obvious the girl could only understand very primitive English yet the controller swarmed her with words in her downhome cracker accent - difficult enough for even native speakers to understand sometimes. She should have slowed her speech. She should have given the student a heading and altitude, repeating it until it was acknowledged on her display, and shut up about anything else until she had the student stabilized.

Hopefully the controller will learn something from this sad event. Seems like intuitive common sense would have kicked in.

Hindsight I know, but still . . . controllers are paid to think as well as talk.
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I thought the same thing, too, but things like" turn left 3-6-0" and "maintain 1000 ft" should have clicked. At the end, the pilot was calling out lower and lower altitudes. :dunno:
 
Maybe the controller could have been better but this one is 100% on the pilot. If we are to hang anyone else then her cfis and dpes.
 
In the end, it is on the pilot and pilot alone, she is responsible for her own death in the end of it. Did others help her in the making of this mistake? Most likely the answer will be yes. But the ultimate failure in assessment was her self assessment. She was pushing hard for a goal that she most likely was not suited for. That other people may have been blowing smoke up her ass about the level of her ability having an effect on this self assessment is surely possible.
 
That was tough to listen to... My thought when listening was when the controller told her to climb to 1000, that is probably what did it and she probably stalled and spun it in getting too slow while climbing again. Pure guessing of course. She might have survived just staying low. Are there towers in the area? She seemed quite close to the airport.
 
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