Could'a, Would'a, Should'a (Escaping Thermals)

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tpowers

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tpowers
I had the bumpiest, most nauseating flight so far last Friday going from KRLD to 4S2 (Richland, WA to Hood River Or) in a 180HP C172. Friday was the start of a heat wave and the rapidly increasing temperature made for high density altitude, poor engine and flight performance (plus I was carrying 3 pax besides myself and a load of camping equipment with only about 140 lbs to spare before hitting max gross) and heavy thermal activity.

I thought I could climb out of it but the climb rate was so low that by the time I had gotten above the thermals I would have to start descending again. In addition to this I had to balance my desire to climb with the oil temperature gauge which was looking about as happy as my passengers.

My daughter started vomiting almost immediately, my wife held it until we were nearly there but eventually even she succumbed to the roller coaster effects. Even I was starting to feel a little queasy and I was trained in these thermals.

But the lesson that was learned, and something my CFI mentioned to me in training, sadly did not occur to me until today: The whole time I was following the V520 vicor airway if I had just turned south and descended a bit I could have flown straight down the gorge over the nice wide, cool, and most importantly evenly temperature'd Columbia River. Probably avoiding most if not all thermal activity.

Of course the gorge can pose its own problems, heavy winds (probably head winds) are common (though not always present) but still it's an option I could have tried that had a good chance of success.

The second lesson learned was learned the easy way, by listening to my co-worker's suggestion: Don't tell your wife that you could have gotten out of the thermals.
 
time of day is also important. My wife and I have a rule. Unless we are going to fly pretty high, we try to land by 11am and not take off again before 5ish in the afternoon. Everything in between can be awful, especially if you don't get much altitude.
 
Is there a "rule of thumb" altitude that thermals generally break up at? I havent been able to really get out and figure it out for myself during an afternoon because on those days I've been free there's been an AIRMET for moderate turbulence up until 10000
 
Mornings get you the smoothest ride. Look at the clouds, if they all are at a nice even altitude, the turbulence stops there. If not, it'll be a bumpy day, you also have to figure in the mechanical turbulence from the mountains. Some days there just is no where to get away from it though. Some days even airliners have turbulence at their cruise.
 
The skew-T will tell you where the instability stops.

If you have cloud tops, the top of instability is why they are there.
 
That is why you hear over, and over, and over again............Fly early in the morning.
 
I flew virtually the same route with my wife on Mother's Day and we got banged around quite a bit both ways even at 7500 mask. I am not sure that turbulence over or near the Gorge ever goes away. Same with the wind at Hood River. Seems like it's always blowing there, and in the wrong direction. All that said, it is a very pretty flight and the museum at Hood River is fabulous- worth the trip!:)
 
Is there a "rule of thumb" altitude that thermals generally break up at? I havent been able to really get out and figure it out for myself during an afternoon because on those days I've been free there's been an AIRMET for moderate turbulence up until 10000

The SkewT data with forecast high for the day will let you know what altitude the thermals will top out at. Soaring pilots rely on it.
 
Is there a "rule of thumb" altitude that thermals generally break up at? I havent been able to really get out and figure it out for myself during an afternoon because on those days I've been free there's been an AIRMET for moderate turbulence up until 10000

Ill echo what the other glider pilots said. Learn to read a skew-T. Its daunting at first but really quite simple. It'll show you the stability of the atmosphere. But otherwise there is no set rule of thumb. As you fly you'll probably notice some trends for your area. Like for my part of Florida most cumulus bases are gonna be at around 3000 and occasionally as high as 5. The tops will vary based on instability.
 
Any good links as to how to read and apply skew-T.
 
The whole time I was following the V520 vicor airway if I had just turned south and descended a bit I could have flown straight down the gorge over the nice wide, cool, and most importantly evenly temperature'd Columbia River. Probably avoiding most if not all thermal activity.

Of course the gorge can pose its own problems, heavy winds (probably head winds) are common (though not always present) but still it's an option I could have tried that had a good chance of success.


You are in a 172 nearly at gross, hot temps, sick passengers and you think it is a good idea to fly down a gorge? Your decision making is poor at best my friend. You really need to stop and rethink your flight planning skills. If 2 out of 3 passengers are throwing up I think you failed miserably as PIC.
 
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You are in a 172 nearly at gross, hot temps, sick passengers and you think it is a good idea to fly down a gorge? Your decision making is poor at best my friend. You really need to stop and rethink your flight planning skills. If 2 out of 3 passengers are throwing up I think you failed miserably as PIC.

I wouldn't go that far.

Having a few pax loose their cookies does not make for a failure as PIC.

Skin
Tin
Ticket

Didn't hurt anyone, didn't hurt the plane, didn't break any regs.

Life goes on.



In the future flying early or late helps, the skew-t is good for planning, etc.

Best advise, and a good deal of fun, get your glider add on.

A glider add on will really give you a working first hand knowledge for how to make the air work for you, as well as building your stick and rudder skills up.
 
I think we are often are own worst enemy when it comes to turbulence. I hate 172's in rough air, hanging under that wing with low wing loading feels like I am underneath the bed of a truck going over a very bumpy road.
 
I wouldn't go that far.

Having a few pax loose their cookies does not make for a failure as PIC.

Skin
Tin
Ticket

Didn't hurt anyone, didn't hurt the plane, didn't break any regs.

Life goes on.

If it's Pax or pilots, I agree, however this was family, so there is an extra consideration involved, getting them into the plane again. When family is reluctant to fly, flying activities typically curtail and the value of the aviation dollars already spent devalues. If your decisions make your family reluctant to fly, you have failed as PIC.
 
I think we are often are own worst enemy when it comes to turbulence. I hate 172's in rough air, hanging under that wing with low wing loading feels like I am underneath the bed of a truck going over a very bumpy road.

As opposed to a high wing where it feels like you are riding a steel rimmed buckboard across a washout....:rofl:
 
You are in a 172 nearly at gross, hot temps, sick passengers and you think it is a good idea to fly down a gorge? Your decision making is poor at best my friend. You really need to stop and rethink your flight planning skills. If 2 out of 3 passengers are throwing up I think you failed miserably as PIC.

1. My daughter has flown with me before and she vomits on smooth flights, but she wanted to go anyway to try to get used to the motions. So I was totally expecting her to vomit. She's an adult and can decide for herself if she's up for the ride. Both her and my wife said they are not scarred of flying and would do it again as long as it was smoother.

2. The Columbia gorge between Washington and Oregon is not narrow with high ridges on either side, the river is very wide with ridges not much more than about 1000 ft above the water. If I had flown down it I would have tried no lower than 2500 msl. I also wouldn't be rolling left and right to keep directly over the water but rather stay in a relatively straight line. I've flown down the river during hot days during my training and sometimes it's the easiest way to escape thermals. I would not have been "in" the gorge, I'd be well over it.

Leaving early morning would have been the best option. I agree my preflight planning failed in this regard. Given that, once you're in the rollercoaster and turning back would take as long as proceeding, kicking yourself for not leaving early does no good. You just file that away as a lesson learned and make the best of your current situation.
 
If your decisions make your family reluctant to fly, you have failed as PIC.

Why are you so mean sometimes?

Jesus. You "accidentally" bellied your plane (which you had failed to sell) in after making posts on here about how you would never do such a thing.

He hit thermals man and tried to come up w/ an alternate solution in hindsight.

If I had to choose, I would rather fly with the guy that got it on the ground in one piece.

You can really be a dick sometimes.

The guy does a post mortem on a flight and posts, thinking of potential alternatives and he gets called a failure by people on here.

15 posts and "50,000 post guy" is calling him a failure.

dick. completely and utterly.
 
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Why are you so mean sometimes?

Jesus. You "accidentally" bellied your plane (which you had failed to sell) in after making posts on here about how you would never do such a thing.

He hit thermals man and tried to come up w/ an alternate solution in hindsight.

If I had to choose, I would rather fly with the guy that got it on the ground in one piece.

You can really be a dick sometimes.

The guy does a post mortem on a flight and posts, thinking of potential alternatives and he gets called a failure by people on here.

15 posts and "50,000 post guy" is calling him a failure.

dick. completely and utterly.
this right there

This is why we have so many lurkers, why members limit or stop posting, why people don't share more and learn more. The condescending attitude and rudeness that prevails in even the most benign of threads here is enough to drive polite people away before they ever post.

Que the "blah blah but the red boards are worse, blah thick skin, blah" replies now.
 
Why are you so mean sometimes?

Jesus. You "accidentally" bellied your plane (which you had failed to sell) in after making posts on here about how you would never do such a thing.

He hit thermals man and tried to come up w/ an alternate solution in hindsight.

If I had to choose, I would rather fly with the guy that got it on the ground in one piece.

You can really be a dick sometimes.

The guy does a post mortem on a flight and posts, thinking of potential alternatives and he gets called a failure by people on here.

15 posts and "50,000 post guy" is calling him a failure.

dick. completely and utterly.

Well, I wasn't commenting on him directly, but rather on the statement I quoted which was a general statement that applies to all who act as PIC. But yes, I have rarely been accused of being nice when 'nice' isn't called for. Blowing smoke up someone's ass and being a cheerleader I not something I'm partial to do. If mean is honest, it's better than a nice lie.
 
this right there

This is why we have so many lurkers, why members limit or stop posting, why people don't share more and learn more. The condescending attitude and rudeness that prevails in even the most benign of threads here is enough to drive polite people away before they ever post.

Que the "blah blah but the red boards are worse, blah thick skin, blah" replies now.

amen brothers.
 
Mornings get you the smoothest ride. Look at the clouds, if they all are at a nice even altitude, the turbulence stops there. If not, it'll be a bumpy day, you also have to figure in the mechanical turbulence from the mountains. Some days there just is no where to get away from it though. Some days even airliners have turbulence at their cruise.

Here in Georgia we often find the bumps stop where the top of the haze layer is, usually 6000-9000ft in midday.
 
You are in a 172 nearly at gross, hot temps, sick passengers and you think it is a good idea to fly down a gorge? Your decision making is poor at best my friend. You really need to stop and rethink your flight planning skills.

I take it you've never seen the Columbia Gorge.

If 2 out of 3 passengers are throwing up I think you failed miserably as PIC.

Pilots who are worth anything learn as they go along, as the OP is doing.

Why is it that people think saying "my friend" makes it OK to say obnoxious things to people?
 
Did you try slowing down?

Airplanes are just like cars, a speed bump at fifty m.p.h. is a lot different than at 10 m.p.h.

I fly to Amarillo from South Texas often and know all too well what turbulence can be ... when you hit the caprock in summer, things can get hairy. I'll just slow down and grind through it. :redface:
 
Why are you so mean sometimes?

Jesus. You "accidentally" bellied your plane (which you had failed to sell) in after making posts on here about how you would never do such a thing.

He hit thermals man and tried to come up w/ an alternate solution in hindsight.

If I had to choose, I would rather fly with the guy that got it on the ground in one piece.

You can really be a dick sometimes.

The guy does a post mortem on a flight and posts, thinking of potential alternatives and he gets called a failure by people on here.

15 posts and "50,000 post guy" is calling him a failure.

dick. completely and utterly.

:yeahthat:


Henning,

I appreciate the knowledge on a wide array of subjects you bring to the forum, but your delivery sucks the big one sometimes. It takes a lot of guts to lay it all out here for the masses to monday morning QB. Lighten up Francis.
 
Here in Georgia we often find the bumps stop where the top of the haze layer is, usually 6000-9000ft in midday.

That why an IR is so important. Climbing above that crap is the way to go, but you have to get through it legally first.
 
Well, I wasn't commenting on him directly, but rather on the statement I quoted which was a general statement that applies to all who act as PIC. But yes, I have rarely been accused of being nice when 'nice' isn't called for. Blowing smoke up someone's ass and being a cheerleader I not something I'm partial to do. If mean is honest, it's better than a nice lie.

Except it's a "lessons learned" post, not an "I'm doing it again" post.

He knows he screwed up or performed suboptimally, hence the post here. Agree, sure, but offer some constructive criticism instead of just a "you dun goofed" statement. Everybody here has had a passenger that poorly reacted. Just because somebody is reluctant to fly afterwards doesn't mean the PIC screwed the pooch.

Granted, I've only had one person get sick after a flight with me (after he got to the FBO on the return, fortunately... known motion sickness tendencies, but still wanted to go), and is still willing despite the fact that he puked. It was a choppy day, but they still wanted to go get lunch and it was safe.
 
Except it's a "lessons learned" post, not an "I'm doing it again" post.

He knows he screwed up or performed suboptimally, hence the post here. Agree, sure, but offer some constructive criticism instead of just a "you dun goofed" statement. Everybody here has had a passenger that poorly reacted. Just because somebody is reluctant to fly afterwards doesn't mean the PIC screwed the pooch.

Granted, I've only had one person get sick after a flight with me (after he got to the FBO on the return, fortunately... known motion sickness tendencies, but still wanted to go), and is still willing despite the fact that he puked. It was a choppy day, but they still wanted to go get lunch and it was safe.

As I said, I wasn't ****ing commenting on his ****ing post read what I wrote in response to the OP in post 4. **** me dead, can't y'all ****ing read, or are you just looking for **** to jump me for? **** off.
 
As I said, I wasn't ****ing commenting on his ****ing post read what I wrote in response to the OP in post 4. **** me dead, can't y'all ****ing read, or are you just looking for **** to jump me for? **** off.
I read what you said in post 4 and absolutely agree. The rest seems to read as a continuation, though. Geez, I was trying to have civil conversation here. Care to try again fresh?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
 
To the OP, as someone who has had a spouse barf in the plane we tried various antinausea meds which all made her sleepy and she hated them. I finally remembered what I took as a mate on a charter boat for seasickness, which happened to me every day. Try some marezine, it does not make you drowsy and works better than Dramamine or other similar things. It worked for me for over 6 years and my wife has not been sick since. It works !!!. Your local drug store may not stock it but we order it through Rite Aid and your local store can probably do the same. My wife now enjoys flying because she knows she is not likely to get sick. Hope it helps.
 
As I said, I wasn't ****ing commenting on his ****ing post read what I wrote in response to the OP in post 4. **** me dead, can't y'all ****ing read, or are you just looking for **** to jump me for? **** off.
****, **** and ****
 
I wasn't going to post this, but the OP was getting grilled a bit so decided to ...

My brother wanted to fly the local area (he has moved out of town) ... due to time constraints on his trip here, his only opportunity would be for just after noon ... in West Texas ... summer ... and temps over 100*. I warned him it was a bad idea, but he flys for work every week commercial and said he could handle it. Besides, big brothers have a way of being pushy and acting tough ... so I was in a win-win situation either way (puke or no puke).

Long story short ... we got rocked nasty ... even shorter, big brother loved it and never turned green once!

On a side note, he brought my neice to town (she's 20) and she wanted to ride as well ... EXACT same circumstances (so she could claim she had the same ride as her father) and EXACT same results!

My son gets mad if I wake him during moderate to severe TB (he has flown with me a bunch) ... I tell him his neck is going to be sore if I don't. Pretty easy pax to fly with in my family.
 
You are in a 172 nearly at gross, hot temps, sick passengers and you think it is a good idea to fly down a gorge? Your decision making is poor at best my friend. You really need to stop and rethink your flight planning skills. If 2 out of 3 passengers are throwing up I think you failed miserably as PIC.

I wouldn't go that far.

Having a few pax loose their cookies does not make for a failure as PIC.

Skin
Tin
Ticket

Didn't hurt anyone, didn't hurt the plane, didn't break any regs.

Life goes on.



In the future flying early or late helps, the skew-t is good for planning, etc.

Best advise, and a good deal of fun, get your glider add on.

A glider add on will really give you a working first hand knowledge for how to make the air work for you, as well as building your stick and rudder skills up.

Ask his wife and daughter. ;)

If it's Pax or pilots, I agree, however this was family, so there is an extra consideration involved, getting them into the plane again. When family is reluctant to fly, flying activities typically curtail and the value of the aviation dollars already spent devalues. If your decisions make your family reluctant to fly, you have failed as PIC.

Except it's a "lessons learned" post, not an "I'm doing it again" post.

He knows he screwed up or performed suboptimally, hence the post here. Agree, sure, but offer some constructive criticism instead of just a "you dun goofed" statement. Everybody here has had a passenger that poorly reacted. Just because somebody is reluctant to fly afterwards doesn't mean the PIC screwed the pooch.

Granted, I've only had one person get sick after a flight with me (after he got to the FBO on the return, fortunately... known motion sickness tendencies, but still wanted to go), and is still willing despite the fact that he puked. It was a choppy day, but they still wanted to go get lunch and it was safe.

As I said, I wasn't ****ing commenting on his ****ing post read what I wrote in response to the OP in post 4. **** me dead, can't y'all ****ing read, or are you just looking for **** to jump me for? **** off.

I read what you said in post 4 and absolutely agree. The rest seems to read as a continuation, though. Geez, I was trying to have civil conversation here. Care to try again fresh?

Sure, read the exchange again and see if your dig on my ass still stands. You will note Geico is the one that dug at him, not I, why in the **** did you dig at me? Can you answer that? Or Bryan for that matter.
 
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Well, I wasn't commenting on him directly, but rather on the statement I quoted which was a general statement that applies to all who act as PIC. But yes, I have rarely been accused of being nice when 'nice' isn't called for. Blowing smoke up someone's ass and being a cheerleader I not something I'm partial to do. If mean is honest, it's better than a nice lie.

You are just rationalizing your behavior. What you said was not constructive or helpful. A bigger man would admit it when called. John Wayne spoke plainly but wasn't a jerk.
 
You are just rationalizing your behavior. What you said was not constructive or helpful. A bigger man would admit it when called. John Wayne spoke plainly but wasn't a jerk.

John Wayne was a drunk that hated horses and was hated by most of his neighbors in Newport Beach for being a jerk. John Wayne died before the internet or he would be in worse condition than Bill Cosby. Your media heroes are frauds for the most part.
 
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