Cost to build T-hangers

ejensen said:
Big reason that we told them we couldn't build without a longer term.
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I think 20/10/10 is a reasonable deal. After 40 years, you will probably have to spend money on rehabbing the thing anyway. New door motors, tracks, roofing etc., what you hand off to the county at that point is not worth that much (otoh I know a hangar owner who not only had the airport-sponsor take his maintenance hangar, they then sued him for good measure because they claimed that it wasn't in rentable condition).
 
weilke said:
I think 20/10/10 is a reasonable deal. After 40 years, you will probably have to spend money on rehabbing the thing anyway. New door motors, tracks, roofing etc., what you hand off to the county at that point is not worth that much (otoh I know a hangar owner who not only had the airport-sponsor take his maintenance hangar, they then sued him for good measure because they claimed that it wasn't in rentable condition).
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And I'll be over 100. Hope I still need it.
 
weilke said:
I think 20/10/10 is a reasonable deal. After 40 years, you will probably have to spend money on rehabbing the thing anyway. New door motors, tracks, roofing etc., what you hand off to the county at that point is not worth that much (otoh I know a hangar owner who not only had the airport-sponsor take his maintenance hangar, they then sued him for good measure because they claimed that it wasn't in rentable condition).
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Politics can destroy a perfectly good running FBO.... I know of a very successful operation who had invested millions into the facilities to grow it into a premier FBO and the airport board is terminating the lease with the intent of taking over the operation to milk it dry....:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad:...
 
I know this thread died several weeks ago, but I thought I'd post that our city council has decided to form an airport board, and I've been asked to be on it. Of course I accepted the invitation to apply. Hopefully, we can do something to make this airport attractive to more pilots. I have some good ideas, but I'm sure it'll be difficult to get much done. It's a step in the right direction anyway.

The City of Lindsay doesn't know it, but all of you will on the airport board too, as I will undoubtedly be seeking your perspectives on airport matters.
 
Well, I have a suggestion.

Charge more!

The waiting list here is officially two years long, but I've been on it for 4+ and still haven't got a slot. They charge $175.

I'm just a poor dumb software engineer, not some fancy pants Economist, but if you have a long waiting list for a resource and you complain that you can't afford to build more and you're only charging $175 / month, well, it's just a thought but maybe raise the rent?

Raise the rent until you have zero vacancy with no waiting list. Max $$$.

(Yes, it would suck for me too, but I'd rather have a hangar than not have one, and it'd kick the idiots out using hangars for storing boats.)
 
After speaking to our local airport management, they purposely do not build any more hangars or hail sheds (even thought hey have the paved space and permits) because a full airport with a long waiting list guarantees higher profits by artificially driving up the demand and thus prices.

Math is a *****. Especially in the hands of the greedy.
 
BigBadLou said:
After speaking to our local airport management, they purposely do not build any more hangars or hail sheds (even thought hey have the paved space and permits) because a full airport with a long waiting list guarantees higher profits by artificially driving up the demand and thus prices.



Math is a *****. Especially in the hands of the greedy.
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Ok, but it doesn't sound like they're raising the prices...?
 
OkieFlyer said:
I know this thread died several weeks ago, but I thought I'd post that our city council has decided to form an airport board, and I've been asked to be on it. Of course I accepted the invitation to apply. Hopefully, we can do something to make this airport attractive to more pilots. I have some good ideas, but I'm sure it'll be difficult to get much done. It's a step in the right direction anyway.

The City of Lindsay doesn't know it, but all of you will on the airport board too, as I will undoubtedly be seeking your perspectives on airport matters.
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Congrats on the appointment.....

As for making it more attractive...

1- cute gals in bikinis working the ramp always work
2- cheap fuel ( 1.99 a gallon for 100LL);)
3- brand new Corvette crew cars
4- 10 dollar a night hangar fees..

:D:D:D:D
 
N801BH said:
Congrats on the appointment.....

As for making it more attractive...

1- cute gals in bikinis working the ramp always work
2- cheap fuel ( 1.99 a gallon for 100LL);)
3- brand new Corvette crew cars
4- 10 dollar a night hangar fees..

:D:D:D:D
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Item #1 also do $10 plane washes. That hopefully turns into a sudsy water fight.
 
N801BH said:
Congrats on the appointment.....

As for making it more attractive...

1- cute gals in bikinis working the ramp always work
2- cheap fuel ( 1.99 a gallon for 100LL);)
3- brand new Corvette crew cars
4- 10 dollar a night hangar fees..

:D:D:D:D
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I like it. :yes:

I went down and had a visit with the city manager a little bit ago. Apparently, the reason for the formation of the airport advisory board is because the city manager is interested in doing some projects, and wants input from the local aviation community. It is fantastic to have a manager after all these years that actually wants to do something out there. I'm super pumped, and frankly, quite surprised. Sounds he's interested in building hangars, resurfacing the runway, and possibly putting in a gas pump. I'd like to try to get a mogas pump too. Anywho, I'm just glad to get the opportunity to try to affect some positive changes at our little airport.
 
OkieFlyer said:
I know this thread died several weeks ago, but I thought I'd post that our city council has decided to form an airport board, and I've been asked to be on it. Of course I accepted the invitation to apply. Hopefully, we can do something to make this airport attractive to more pilots. I have some good ideas, but I'm sure it'll be difficult to get much done. It's a step in the right direction anyway.

The City of Lindsay doesn't know it, but all of you will on the airport board too, as I will undoubtedly be seeking your perspectives on airport matters.
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Congrats!

And about the part of your post that I put in bold, I think it is great that you want to solicit the opinions of others. I have known others who were fortunate to get such an appointment who decided he just naturally spoke for all other pilots and knew what was best for everyone. You seem to be very grounded and open to ideas. You will no doubt serve you community well.
 
N801BH said:
Congrats on the appointment.....

As for making it more attractive...

1- cute gals in bikinis working the ramp always work
2- cheap fuel ( 1.99 a gallon for 100LL);)
3- brand new Corvette crew cars
4- 10 dollar a night hangar fees..

:D:D:D:D
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Come on, let's please take this subject seriously. :nono:





We need Hummer crew cars. :yes:
 
N801BH said:
As for making it more attractive...

1- cute gals in bikinis working the ramp always work
2- cheap fuel ( 1.99 a gallon for 100LL);)
3- brand new Corvette crew cars
4- 10 dollar a night hangar fees..

:D:D:D:D
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Could #4 be combined with #1? Is it included in the $10 or would it be extra? What if I buy full tanks of fuel? ;)

You should really open an airport, it would be packed .... especially Fridays! :lol:
 
Well, what you do to convince the city is to find 10+ people who will commit to a hangar lease to sign on at $X and show the revenue. If that doesn't do it, there is probably an agenda going on that you aren't privy to.
 
BigBadLou said:
Could #4 be combined with #1? Is it included in the $10 or would it be extra? What if I buy full tanks of fuel? ;)

You should really open an airport, it would be packed .... especially Fridays! :lol:
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Build it in Nevada and it'll all be legal. :D
 
SkyDog58 said:
Congrats!

And about the part of your post that I put in bold, I think it is great that you want to solicit the opinions of others. I have known others who were fortunate to get such an appointment who decided he just naturally spoke for all other pilots and knew what was best for everyone. You seem to be very grounded and open to ideas. You will no doubt serve you community well.
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Thanks, I appreciate that.!

Of course I will want the opinions of other pilots, because that's precisely who we will be trying to better serve. What floats my boat, may not float everyone else's. So prepare for your service on the Lindsay Municipal Airport Advisory Board!
 
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N801BH said:
Congrats on the appointment.....

As for making it more attractive...

1- cute gals in bikinis working the ramp always work
2- cheap fuel ( 1.99 a gallon for 100LL);)
3- brand new Corvette crew cars
4- 10 dollar a night hangar fees..

:D:D:D:D
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Sounds like my home field Sundance (KHSD). Except I guess the fuel is a bit more, still lowest around.... And they have 2 land rovers, not corvettes.
 
Some good news for the OP...

I've heard KFTW is planning to build 70-100 T's between RWY 16 and 17, North of 9-27.

Downside is they'll likely be $450/mo or more, like ours in the South T's. But they should knock out a bit of the wait list and it's not too far for you to drive :)
 
Happy to answer any questions out there about this since we just did it at my airport. We are a quasi-governmental entity, so yes, tons of red tape. Also, building hangars with grant money is not the same as building them as a private entity. You can do it at about 1/3 to 1/2 the cost it took us to build the same structure...maybe even better. To do the site prep and build our recent 10 unit T-hangar building cost in the ballpark of $1 million. These are very basic, with their only fringe benefit being electric bi-fold doors.

There is also the matter of what to charge for rent on the back end in order to satisfy those that just gave you the grant money. Our cost was 5%, so about $50,000 (roughly) was what we put out. In order to cover our cost of building in 3 years, we could charge around $150 per month. Realize that there is ongoing preventative maintenance and utility costs in this as well. Unfortunately, big daddy that just gave you the money doesn't view it this way. They want you to charge a rental rate that sees you recoup the $1,000,000 in a reasonable amount of time. So what do you do? Charge the $150 because it is a good representation of the average in the area or charge hundreds of dollars in an effort to get close to the million dollar mark and get few takers?

There is also plenty of planning that goes into building a hangar. You don't just wake up one morning and realize you want to build one and then do it. At least in our area, these structures need to be represented and planned out on your layout plan. Not on the plan, probably not getting grant money to do it. Also, there's only so much grant money to go around. Small airports get $150,000 a year that they can use toward building a hangar, as long as all your other stuff is in order (trees, land, safety, etc...).

So why don't airports just let private individuals build them with a ground lease? As someone that has been stuck with a few of these deals recently, let me tell you, it's not desirable. Tenants who are not actually your own can become a major PITA. Also, the FAA doesn't really like to see the very long term leases that used to exist out there anymore. With 10 years being the average now, it's hard for many to justify building a set of hangars and then charging a reasonable rate to recoup their expense over that 10 years.

There are lots of things to be considered other than waiting lists out there. Some airports are fortunate and can do these things. We recently got back in a spot where we can move forward with these projects. As I mentioned earlier, we just completed a 10 unit structure and are in the middle of building a 80x80 storage hangar as well. We'd like to keep building since I've still got a waiting list of around 30 people, but funds are short and construction keeps getting more expensive as the economy picks back up. It's a balancing act.
 
BGF_Yankee said:
Happy to answer any questions out there about this since we just did it at my airport. We are a quasi-governmental entity, so yes, tons of red tape. Also, building hangars with grant money is not the same as building them as a private entity. You can do it at about 1/3 to 1/2 the cost it took us to build the same structure...maybe even better. To do the site prep and build our recent 10 unit T-hangar building cost in the ballpark of $1 million. These are very basic, with their only fringe benefit being electric bi-fold doors.

There is also the matter of what to charge for rent on the back end in order to satisfy those that just gave you the grant money. Our cost was 5%, so about $50,000 (roughly) was what we put out. In order to cover our cost of building in 3 years, we could charge around $150 per month. Realize that there is ongoing preventative maintenance and utility costs in this as well. Unfortunately, big daddy that just gave you the money doesn't view it this way. They want you to charge a rental rate that sees you recoup the $1,000,000 in a reasonable amount of time. So what do you do? Charge the $150 because it is a good representation of the average in the area or charge hundreds of dollars in an effort to get close to the million dollar mark and get few takers?

There is also plenty of planning that goes into building a hangar. You don't just wake up one morning and realize you want to build one and then do it. At least in our area, these structures need to be represented and planned out on your layout plan. Not on the plan, probably not getting grant money to do it. Also, there's only so much grant money to go around. Small airports get $150,000 a year that they can use toward building a hangar, as long as all your other stuff is in order (trees, land, safety, etc...).

So why don't airports just let private individuals build them with a ground lease? As someone that has been stuck with a few of these deals recently, let me tell you, it's not desirable. Tenants who are not actually your own can become a major PITA. Also, the FAA doesn't really like to see the very long term leases that used to exist out there anymore. With 10 years being the average now, it's hard for many to justify building a set of hangars and then charging a reasonable rate to recoup their expense over that 10 years.

There are lots of things to be considered other than waiting lists out there. Some airports are fortunate and can do these things. We recently got back in a spot where we can move forward with these projects. As I mentioned earlier, we just completed a 10 unit structure and are in the middle of building a 80x80 storage hangar as well. We'd like to keep building since I've still got a waiting list of around 30 people, but funds are short and construction keeps getting more expensive as the economy picks back up. It's a balancing act.
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100 Grand for each T- hangar......

Just goes to show how red tape is crushing reality...:mad2::mad2::mad:
 
N801BH said:
100 Grand for each T- hangar......

Just goes to show how red tape is crushing reality...:mad2::mad2::mad:
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I guess I could've broke that down at least into two parts. The overall site prep was about $600,000. This included quite a bit of dirt work, extending the access road, and pouring concrete. The building in place was around $400,000. Also realize these prices include engineering fees, so aren't quite exact for just buying a building and having it erected. Red tape does suck...like I said, probably could've done it for quite a bit cheaper as a private entity since you wouldn't have to worry about adhering to the same things, i.e. prescribed wage rates, DBE, Buy American, etc... Also, when construction companies find out it's a governmental contract, the rates go up because a) they know it's a hassle, and b) they can get the money.
 
our airport manager says it is about $20k per unit/hangar if build private vs. airport because any federal funds require additional feasibility, analysis, design, engineering, inspection, etc. studies that get tacked onto the construction costs.
 
Shaded ports would be a nice alternative in lieu of a waiting list....
 
Cruiser said:
our airport manager says it is about $20k per unit/hangar if build private vs. airport because any federal funds require additional feasibility, analysis, design, engineering, inspection, etc. studies that get tacked onto the construction costs.
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My guess is 20 is a bit low....

Concrete /foundation will be around 9-10, good door is about the same.

My gut feeling is mid 30's is closer to ballpark... IMHO.
 
OkieFlyer said:
The city manager "runs" it, and the city counsel would vote on any improvements. We don't have an airport board or airport manager, and that's the main problem. There is nobody in the city government that knows or has anything to do with aviation. It's a small town, and the airport is wayyy down on the priority list.

I'm sure doing it myself would be all those things you mentioned, but the rules of the airport make doing so very unattractive. I would have to lobby the city counsel for some rule changes before I would even condsider it. I'm not a fan of spending my money on something that becomes the property of the city.
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Not to be pedantic, but to be accurate ... the city COUNSEL is the lawyer that advises the city COUNCIL on legal matters. In a matter like this it is important to know which is which.

I've told this story so many times it is growing hair...if YOU aren't willing to run for the city council and get your oar in the water that way, you will be at the mercy of those who will.

Jim
 
EdFred said:
Because generally the larger an organization gets, the further up their ass their head is. The only way they can build hangars is if the entire cost can be fit into one year's budget. Doesn't matter if they can come out ahead in 5 years. It's always a myopic single year view.

Had a customer we could have saved over $200,000 year in materials, but because they didn't have an extra $25,000 in their budget for that month they said no.
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And then there is our airport....Operator would add 50+ new hangars tomorrow, but the local township is still fighting to make it recognized as an airport and the neighbors cry about airport noise and fight any new construction at the airport. A good part of the hangars were built around WWII and are ready to fall over.
 
BGF_Yankee said:
I guess I could've broke that down at least into two parts. The overall site prep was about $600,000. This included quite a bit of dirt work, extending the access road, and pouring concrete. The building in place was around $400,000. Also realize these prices include engineering fees, so aren't quite exact for just buying a building and having it erected. Red tape does suck...like I said, probably could've done it for quite a bit cheaper as a private entity since you wouldn't have to worry about adhering to the same things, i.e. prescribed wage rates, DBE, Buy American, etc... Also, when construction companies find out it's a governmental contract, the rates go up because a) they know it's a hassle, and b) they can get the money.
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I spoke with my cousin who manages KSNL in Shawnee, OK (Overdrive148's boss ;)), and he believes it should cost around $250K-$350K.

hindsight2020 said:
Shaded ports would be a nice alternative in lieu of a waiting list....
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Agreed.

weirdjim said:
Not to be pedantic, but to be accurate ... the city COUNSEL is the lawyer that advises the city COUNCIL on legal matters. In a matter like this it is important to know which is which.

I've told this story so many times it is growing hair...if YOU aren't willing to run for the city council and get your oar in the water that way, you will be at the mercy of those who will.

Jim
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Pardon the spelling error. I was actually running for city council last year, and ended up backing out because of upcoming work projects that would hamper my ability to attend council meetings. I'll serve some day, but it's nearly impossible with my current work schedule. The airport board won't have a meeting schedule set in stone, and will be a bit more flexible. I'm extremely pleased that the council has seen fit to form the airport advisory board, and I'm happy to be able to serve my community in some capacity, and vow not to simply serve myself, as some boards have a tendency to do.
 
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OkieFlyer said:
I spoke with my cousin who manages KSNL in Shawnee, OK (Overdrive148's boss ;)), and he believes it should cost around $250K-$350K.



Agreed.



Pardon the spelling error. I was actually running for city council last year, and ended up backing out because of upcoming work projects that would hamper my ability to attend council meetings. I'll serve some day, but it's nearly impossible with my current work schedule. The airport board won't have a meeting schedule set in stone, and will be a bit more flexible. I'm extremely pleased that the council has seen fit to form the airport advisory board, and I'm happy to be able to serve my community in some capacity, and vow not to simply serve myself, as some boards have a tendency to do.
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Just like Principal & Principle, Capitol & Capital, etc. These sort of word choice mistakes happen all of the time. No worries. Although we all should strive to do better with our modern day diminishing writing skills, most of us knew what you meant.

Question, do you ever read any of Jamie Beckett's columns on politics for pilots? He is a columnist for General Aviation News and his articles often have some excellent insight into the challenges you might be facing. He might even be willing to answer any questions that you might have.
 
OkieFlyer said:
I spoke with my cousin who manages KSNL in Shawnee, OK (Overdrive148's boss ;)), and he believes it should cost around $250K-$350K.
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Not arguing what it SHOULD cost...as the manager at KBGF I'm telling you what our low bid (of 5) came in at for T-hangars just completed and occupied. Also realize that costs are different in different places. What it costs to build a hangar at my airport in south central Tennessee is not what it costs to build a hangar at the next airport over or in eastern/western Tennessee...or Oklahoma for that matter. Also, costs swing back and forth depending on how busy contractors are. This was our cost for a particular point in the state of the economy. I'm just trying to give a reference point for data. If you have a municipally operated airport, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out what they are paying.
 
EdFred said:
Because generally the larger an organization gets, the further up their ass their head is.
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Commonly called the "septic tank principle" in poltics.

Most of it flows downhill, but the really big chunks float their way to the top.

Jim
 
BGF_Yankee said:
Not arguing what it SHOULD cost...as the manager at KBGF I'm telling you what our low bid (of 5) came in at for T-hangars just completed and occupied. Also realize that costs are different in different places. What it costs to build a hangar at my airport in south central Tennessee is not what it costs to build a hangar at the next airport over or in eastern/western Tennessee...or Oklahoma for that matter. Also, costs swing back and forth depending on how busy contractors are. This was our cost for a particular point in the state of the economy. I'm just trying to give a reference point for data. If you have a municipally operated airport, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out what they are paying.
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I appreciate the info. very much.

Those figures are based on recent projects in KCQB in Chandler, OK and KGMJ in Grove, OK.
 
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