Corrosion pictures - required treatment?

They don't. The SID isn't mandatory in the USA but it illustrates the known problem areas you should be concerned with since you've found significant corrosion elsewhere.

Here's a YouTube video that introduces the SID.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-68AdXVHHI8
 
Last edited:
...Hard to believe that all those crappy flight training / time building planes get regularly inspected in accordance with these requirements recommendations and that appropriate action will be taken, if something is found. :dunno:

Read it again - if you wish to comply with the SID you won't get past the first page until you have complied with EVERY Cessna Service Bulletin and Instruction ever issued for your aircraft. You'll also need to perform some rather intrusive and time consuming (expensive) inspections. If the SID's were to become mandatory, as they have in Australia, your old 172 probably wouldn't be worth the expense of bringing it into compliance.
 
Even if you could get there with a wirebrush or traditional abrasive paper DON'T DO IT. Corrosion on aluminum should be cleaned up with a non-metal abrasive (i.e., scotchbrite).

Corrosion-X won't "fix" things, but it will slow down the progression.
Just curious: Why is a wire brush and/or regular sandpaper verboten as a method of removing chunky corrosion? Once it's removed, you're gonna spray it with zinc chromate.
 
Just curious: Why is a wire brush and/or regular sandpaper verboten as a method of removing chunky corrosion? Once it's removed, you're gonna spray it with zinc chromate.

Using a steel brush on aluminum is a no-no. Small particles of the steel break off and lodge in the aluminum causing dissimilar corrosion and accelerating the problem.

Same with sandpaper depending upon to the material the sandpaper is made of.

Corrosion Control
 
Last edited:
I wonder, how many people get screwed over like this, but never find out about it until a few years later the issue becomes so severe that rivets start to pop. :mad: Sometimes ignorance is bliss - without the inspection camera, I would be a fat and happy guy, putting along in his 172... :redface:

Many, many new owners have been screwed over by unscrupulous/incompetent shops. 16 years ago, my experience with buying my first plane (a Warrior) was sadly typical: The shop gave the plane a clean bill of health, and four months later socked me with a $5000 annual inspection (in 1998 money. In today's worthless money, that would be $7200+), with a list of preexisting needed repairs as long as your arm.

That shop was (unknown to me) going bankrupt, and I was their meal ticket for a month. They disappeared a few months later -- but those A&Ps are still out there, somewhere. Maybe at your shop?

Unfortunately, you need experience to effectively deal with these people -- and you get the experience from dealing with them. It's a Catch-22 situation, and (as Rotor points out) the FAA couldn't care less about it, so (as with all purchases) let the buyer beware.

Good luck.
 
Using a steel brush on aluminum is a no-no. Small particles of the steel break off and lodge in the aluminum causing dissimilar corrosion and accelerating the problem.

Same with sandpaper depending upon to the material the sandpaper is made of.
Interesting, thanks.
 
I wonder....

had the Cessna Service Center said "this 172 is typical of the corrosion found in Florida's aircraft" would you have bought the aircraft anyway?
 
Using a steel brush on aluminum is a no-no. Small particles of the steel break off and lodge in the aluminum causing dissimilar corrosion and accelerating the problem.

Same with sandpaper depending upon to the material the sandpaper is made of.

Corrosion Control

Doesn't even take small particles off the brush wires. Just the metallic smear it leaves will do it.

Emery cloth (the black stuff) has aluminum oxide grit set in iron oxide, another bad choice. We use the aluminum oxide-only papers and cloths, and silicon carbide waterproof papers.

Dan
 
Doesn't even take small particles off the brush wires. Just the metallic smear it leaves will do it.

Emery cloth (the black stuff) has aluminum oxide grit set in iron oxide, another bad choice. We use the aluminum oxide-only papers and cloths, and silicon carbide waterproof papers.

Dan

Yep, there is a bit of in-depth knowledge to corrosion control. The unaware actually wind up doing more damage than they are correcting.
 
the best way.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Industrial-Blast-Cabinet/G0714

1100 grit glass bead, using 75 pounds of air pressure, clean the piece, alodine, reassemble.

I know a guy who will totally disassemble the entire wing, clean it replace any parts that fail, and reassemble, for 13k +/- for the set, and they will fly better than the factory wing.

If you are going to fix it, fix it right.

If you are not going to fix it, leave the hell alone, spray it with some oily slime and go fly.
 
Last edited:
If all you want is wings, this place does them for $3800 each. But you probably need MUCH more than that.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cessna-172D-wing-restored-To-Like-New-Comes-With-Form-337-Flight-Worthy-Cert-Nr-/271187815580?hash=item3f240dac9c&vxp=mtr

$_1.JPG
 
OBTW,,, If you are going to do a complete corrosion inspection, don't forget the aft side of the aft cabin bulkhead, where Cessna glued in the head liner. I'll wager it is a mess, (they all are) unless some one all ready cleaned it.
 
BTW - had to run out to the back yard just now as a B-24 flew over my house at 800 feet. Probably headed for KCCR, must be some sort on Memorial Day thing going on.

I saw it too yesterday as it was lumbering along at probably 2500 ft going to a show. Pretty dang cool!!!
 
Sometimes ignorance is bliss - without the inspection camera, I would be a fat and happy guy, putting along in his 172... :redface:

You're still that guy. Nobody has grounded your plane. You do have knowledge though that tells you to either start saving for an expensive repair down the road, or learn how to drill and replace rivets. Sooner or later somebody is going to do proper annual on that plane and then you will have to deal with it. For now, just fly.

As to all the talk of lawsuits, it will end up costing you as much as the repair and will go nowhere. You bought the plane as is and the seller owes you nothing. The pre buy you got is nothing more than a paid opinion. They gave you an opinion and it turned out to be a bad one. The most you can do is complain to them, never use that shop again, tell your story to others and leave a bad Yelp review.

Threads like this one should make people reconsider the old argument that goes- "For what it costs to get a hangar, I could just get the plane repainted every 5 years."
 
Threads like this one should make people reconsider the old argument that goes- "For what it costs to get a hangar, I could just get the plane repainted every 5 years."
hey....I'm so using that one....:eek::goofy::D
 
Threads like this one should make people reconsider the old argument that goes- "For what it costs to get a hangar, I could just get the plane repainted every 5 years."

The guy who sold him the plane can still say that though and that's the problem. Worse comes to worse in buying a used plane from the 70s or before probably isn't worth much more than the core value of the engine...but assuming core of o-300 is worth about 7500 if you paid around 20000 for the plane it's probably still about right.
 
I think he gives you an entire wing ready to go no core charge.

And what would the material condition of the wing be?
Knowing today labor prices I really doubt it is a totally rebuilt wing.
 
The guy who sold him the plane can still say that though and that's the problem. Worse comes to worse in buying a used plane from the 70s or before probably isn't worth much more than the core value of the engine..

Find out where the airplane lived. If it's in the great plains or desert, it will probably be fine. Coastal, swampy, wet, not good. Moisture is an essential ingredient of corrosion.

I've seen moss and mildew growing on airplanes. That's about as bad as it can get.

Dan
 
[...] The shop gave the plane a clean bill of health, and four months later socked me with a $5000 annual inspection (in 1998 money. [...] Unfortunately, you need experience to effectively deal with these people -- and you get the experience from dealing with them. It's a Catch-22 situation [...]

Sadly, this seems to be pretty much the standard, especially for first time buyers and / or people who know nothing about airplanes. So far, I heard way more stories like yours (and much worse) than reports that the plane needed nothing and was as expected.

I am really glad that we decided to get this 172 instead of a Mooney M20C or a PA-24, which I would have personally preferred. We thought that it would be wise to gain experience as owners with a basic plane, in good condition, which we could easily afford, including possibly necessary repairs. I would be a lot more nervous, if we would have a more expensive, complex aircraft sitting in the hangar, with more things to break, for which we spent all of our savings. Or, even worse, if all the savings would be gone and we would additionally have to pay off a loan for the plane. :yikes:


[...] had the Cessna Service Center said "this 172 is typical of the corrosion found in Florida's aircraft" would you have bought the aircraft anyway?

No. That's why I asked them to look for corrosion. The plane sat there for only 6 years, I therefore did not consider it to be a 'real' Florida plane.


You're still that guy. Nobody has grounded your plane. You do have knowledge though that tells you to either start saving for an expensive repair down the road, or learn how to drill and replace rivets. Sooner or later somebody is going to do proper annual on that plane and then you will have to deal with it. For now, just fly.

As to all the talk of lawsuits, it will end up costing you as much as the repair and will go nowhere. [...] Threads like this one should make people reconsider the old argument that goes- "For what it costs to get a hangar, I could just get the plane repainted every 5 years."

Well, I wasn't talking about a law suit, but only about legal consultation. Frankly, even though I am not familiar with the US legal system, I agree with you that a law suit would not go anywhere. We bought it from the seller 'as is', he made no promises regarding its condition. I also agree with you regarding the 'paid opinion' and the Cessna Center. Their opinion was worth crap, I however doubt that this makes them liable for possibly bad decisions based on it.

To have a plane sitting outside, without even a roof to protect it from the elements, is IMHO plane-torture and should be prohibited. :(


Find out where the airplane lived. If it's in the great plains or desert, it will probably be fine. [...]

I believe that we have already learned some very valuable lessons. Besides of that I now have a significantly better understanding of what to look for mechanically and in the aircraft's paperwork, I also learned that our next plane will certainly come from a dryer area and that I will participate in person in the pre-buy inspection. As 'dry area' also means long distance purchase for us, the logistics will be more complicated, but most likely worthwhile the efforts.


Regarding our own plane, I have good news. We removed all inspection covers also also inspected the wing and wingstrut bolts, as well as the areas surrounding them. Gladly, we found lots of greasy goo but no corrosion in these critical areas (1st and 2nd picture). The tail also looked good (3rd picture)

We however found some weird stuff in the wings and the tailfeathers (as initially posted). It turned out that the areas which looked like moss and what I thought was corrosion, were actually some kind of coating. We could scrape it of with our fingernails, some of it chipped off in big chunks (picture 4, front and rear of two of them). Picture 5 and 6 show the same area, before and after I chipped off the 'stuff' with my fingernails. Gladly, it was apparently only applied in areas which could be reached with a rattle-can through inspection covers or other existing openings, what also means, that they can be reached with a cleaning pad. Underneath the 'stuff', the metal looked good and had, like in the untreated areas, only very light corrosion, which can be, according to our A&P, easily be stopped with CorrosionX. Picture 7 shows such a untreated section of the wing. Actually, everything looked pretty much the same - the mossy stuff in the vicinity of the openings and good metal, with very light corrosion on it everywhere else.

We will now clean the accessible areas, remove the old coating and then have the plane soaked in CorrosionX.

I am really happy about this outcome and that we do not have a serious corrosion issue. :yes:

However, this does not change my disappointment about the Cessna Center - the old, mossy coating and the beginning corrosion should have been a part of the pre-buy report.
 

Attachments

  • vlcsnap-2015-05-25-11h38m06s46.png
    vlcsnap-2015-05-25-11h38m06s46.png
    414.6 KB · Views: 65
  • IMG_0890.jpg
    IMG_0890.jpg
    288.8 KB · Views: 71
  • IMG_0865.jpg
    IMG_0865.jpg
    284 KB · Views: 86
  • IMG_0884.jpg
    IMG_0884.jpg
    410.8 KB · Views: 68
  • IMG_0880.jpg
    IMG_0880.jpg
    247.6 KB · Views: 64
  • IMG_0881.jpg
    IMG_0881.jpg
    227.5 KB · Views: 62
  • IMG_0871.jpg
    IMG_0871.jpg
    251.8 KB · Views: 61
I understand your disappointment with the service center and would feel the same way. On the same note though, I'm very happy for you and glad you were able to get some good news.

I swear those pictures look like you took them from the time I posted pics of the inside of my plane.

To me this is kinda like when I bought my house. Everyone complained about the costs of home ownership and all the things to deal with..but I honestly enjoy it. I like getting my hands dirty, fishing out the problems, and getting them fixed.
 
Hmmm..

I didn't know that...

Seems to me a person holding an invoice from a FAA approved repair station stating "no corrosion" is a pretty damning document...:idea:..

And that is not including the "other" problems the buyer found..

If a prebuy is NOT an inspection, what is it?:dunno::dunno:

In civil court it has weight, with the FAA, unless signed off as a required inspection, and the corrosion level fails measurement tests, it is meaningless. This is a civil court matter, and the law of the land is Caveat Emptor.
 
That is GOOD news.....:yes::):):)

[...] On the same note though, I'm very happy for you and glad you were able to get some good news. [...]

Thank you.

I can't tell you how relieved I am. I thought we did everything right with the purchase only to learn that the wings will soon fall off because of corrosion.

I was so happy this afternoon, when we were able to simply chip off at least the serious 'corrosion'.
Of course, no corrosion at all would be better, our A&P however said that our plane is in a really nice condition, particularly considering its age. :)

We should receive our, then freshly overhauled, prop back this Friday. Then we'll take her where she belongs - in the air. :goofy: :D :yes:
 
Did we not have the discussion in a previous thread where you were concerned with an engine AD and I told you you were paying attention to the wrong thing, that you need to really assure the airframe condition first, that it is the most critical part of the deal? Why are you just now looking at it?
 
How about vinegar washing the insides of everything to get rid of the scrud then treating it?
 
Did we not have the discussion in a previous thread where you were concerned with an engine AD and I told you you were paying attention to the wrong thing, that you need to really assure the airframe condition first, that it is the most critical part of the deal? Why are you just now looking at it?

Ummm...maybe because they are in Michigan and the plane was in Florida and they had a pre-buy done and asked for a corrosion inspection.

An inspection that apparently wasn't done.

The Cessna Service Center would be getting a call from my attorney if it were me...
 
Ummm...maybe because they are in Michigan and the plane was in Florida and they had a pre-buy done and asked for a corrosion inspection.

An inspection that apparently wasn't done.

The Cessna Service Center would be getting a call from my attorney if it were me...

Hey, you wanna buy a plane over the phone, Caveat Emptor is the law we live by. Call every lawyer you can, if you can find one to take it on contingency, hire them. Otherwise you have a loser of a case if they need a retainer. If you live in Michigan and want to buy a plane in FL, buy a ticket on the smoker and go to Florida.
 
Did we not have the discussion in a previous thread where you were concerned with an engine AD and I told you you were paying attention to the wrong thing, that you need to really assure the airframe condition first, that it is the most critical part of the deal? Why are you just now looking at it?

Well, we actually followed the recommendation of you and others. This was the reason why we spend the extra $$$ to have it done by a Cessna Center instead of a 'normal' A&P, because we thought that they should know Cessnas the best. As stated, I even agreed with them in written to particularly look for corrosion. Well... :rolleyes:

Without any prior experience with working on airplanes, I did not think that it makes much sense to do my own pre-buy and to take the plane apart. We therefore decided to leave this to the professionals.

When we buy our next plane, I will certainly get more involved in the pre-buy inspection. This is however, because I am interested in this topic - I doubt that too many aircraft buyers would be able to gain so much knowledge and experience, prior to purchasing an airplane, that they could do a pre-buy inspection pretty much by them self. The majority of buyers most likely has to rely on the opinion of others, with greatly varying results as just discussed.
 
Last edited:
Well, we actually followed the recommendation of you and others. This was the reason why we spend the extra $$$ to have it done by a Cessna Center instead of a 'normal' A&P, because we thought that they should know Cessnas the best. As stated, I even agreed with them in written to particularly look for corrosion. Well... :rolleyes:

Without any prior experience with working on airplanes, I did not think that it makes much sense to do my own pre-buy and to take the plane apart. We therefore decided to leave this to the professionals.

When we buy our next plane, I will certainly get more involved in the pre-buy inspection. This is however, because I am interested in this topic - I doubt that too many aircraft buyers would be able to gain so much knowledge and experience, prior to purchasing an airplane, that he could do a pre-buy inspection pretty much by himself. The majority of buyers most likely has to rely on the opinion of others, with greatly varying results as just proven.

I think the majority of buyers would recognize that level of corrosion. Deals like yours are why I get work.:lol: It's cheaper to send me to preview/prequalify planes if they don't have time to, because nothing replaces a set of eyes that you trust.

The thing in the post 2008 market is that the prices are now so low, adding in a $1000 to the deal process is a more significant fraction.
 
[..] adding in a $1000 to the deal process is a more significant fraction.

Almost exactly this amount was actually added.


How about vinegar washing the insides of everything to get rid of the scrud then treating it?

You mean EVERYthing, like the fuselage, the wings and the tailfeathers?
Would this just remove goo or also corrosion?


How about adding acid to the already big problem?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinegar

I wondered the same and just started to search for this... :wink2:
 
Another good news - even if minor - is, that the paint came back very nicely after approximately 12 hours polishing and waxing... :):goofy: Would have been a shame, if my efforts would have been wasted...:rolleyes:;):D
 
How about adding acid to the already big problem?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinegar

Yeah, I understand, but to clean it all the right way will require disassembly, which would make for scrap as well. One way you can get a few more years out of the plane at least. I would be interested to see the insides of the H & V stab as well. You have to clean it to measure the pitting and stop the process. If you can't wash, neutralize, and protect, with liquid chemical processes, the remediation that is fiscally available is very limited.
 
Yeah, I understand, but to clean it all the right way will require disassembly, which would make for scrap as well. One way you can get a few more years out of the plane at least. I would be interested to see the insides of the H & V stab as well. You have to clean it to measure the pitting and stop the process. If you can't wash, neutralize, and protect, with liquid chemical processes, the remediation that is fiscally available is very limited.

Your plan has been tried for decades, and never works, it just shortens the period before you must scrap.
 
Your plan has been tried for decades, and never works, it just shortens the period before you must scrap.

Is there actually anything you would recommend to clean the inside of the wings and stabilizers? I assume we could flush them at least with water!?
 
Back
Top