Copying / re bearing clearances

[RalphInCA]

Copying / remembering clearances

Had my first experience with clearance delivery yesterday. My instructor and made a quick flight from my home base to VanNuys.

When we were ready to take off from VNY, I had to contact clearance delivery for instructions. I did this and they then gave me some instructions (speaking kind of fast) which included where to go after takeoff, frequencies, and a checkpoint to report over.

This may seem simple to you old dogs out there, but it was very confusing to this newbie.

Suggestions on how I can copy down or remember the instructions so I don't sound like an idiot next time?

 

[tsts4]

Try using CRAFT:

C - Clearance (ie cleared to Podunk Airport)

R - Route (ie via ABC VOR, etc)

A - Altitude

F - Frequency

T - Transponder code

This is the sequence an IFR clearance is given everytime.

 

[Old Fart]

The operative word here is "First" Ralph

After a while, you'll get used to the pattern, and be prepared for it. In the beginning you tend to try and write down everything (at least I did)

As far as practical items, have the pen ready, clear space on kneeboard, etc. I've been using the sketchpad function of Pilot, as it lets me write a lot bigger

 

[eman1200]

this is IFR?

 

[RalphInCA]

this is IFR?

No, VFR.

 

[tsts4]

Ahh so --using Clearance Delivery threw me.

 

[Zeldman]

Experience is all I can say. After a while you will learn the pattern of the clearance and it will become easier. Maybe the A/FD will show a prefered VFR routing. The CRAFT method works well. When I was a student pilot I would sometimes throw in "student pilot" and hope they will show me a little mercy.

 

[MAKG1]

The two most important phrases a new pilot can learn when talking to any ATC are:

(1) unable

(2) say again

Use the latter until you have it down. Add "student pilot" if you want; it's an option.

CRAFT is overkill. Write something like

DEP 090 FREQ 128.1 RPT FOUR STACKS

Use something that makes sense to you. I would probably write 090 128.1 FOUR STACKS (I always underline headings and runways).

 

[flyingron]

Even VFR clearances at class B (or C) airports tend to follow the CRAFT ordering...

Cleared into (or as C'Ron asserts, out of) the class B airspace via fly runway heading at or below 1500, Departure frequency 126.1 squawk 4321.

 

[flyingron]

CRAFT is overkill. Write something like

DEP 090 FREQ 128.1 RPT FOUR STACKS

Use something that makes sense to you. I would probably write 090 128.1 FOUR STACKS (I always underline headings and runways).

Eh? What kind of clearance is that.

 

[eetrojan]

Hi Ralph - As a VFR student that trained out of John Wayne, my CFI taught me about "CRAFT." I presume that's a good mindset to have for future instrument training. However, since I never got the "C"learance part as a VFR pilot (I believe it would go "Cleared to xxx"), I just added the "RAFT" part to my checklist. After requesting a departure, clearance delivery would always gives me four bits of info that fit into the RAFT part of the acronym.

Me: "John Wayne Clearance, Bugmasher 123AB at Dove, for Newport Departure to Ramona, with information Bravo"

Clearance: "Bugmasher 123AB, turn left 150, maintain VFR at or below 2400, departure frequency 124.1, squawk 0201".

As clearance transmitted, I just scribble down the bolded info below next to the letters R, A, F, and T:

R L 080
A <=2400
F 124.1
T 0201

Then, just read it back:

Me: "Left 080, at or below 2400, frequency 124.1, squawk 0201, 3AB"

Not sure about Van Nuys or elsewhere, but works every time at John Wayne.

 

[Marauder]

Understanding and copying are two different tasks. When I first moved to a controlled field, I tried to understand what they were asking me while they were telling it to me. I ended up missing out on most of what they had said.

Best way is to write everything down, read it back and then question anything you don't understand or can't do.

Years ago as a student pilot, I learned that using the words "student pilot" slowed things down a whole lot

Same with "progressive taxiing instructions".


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[MAKG1]

Eh? What kind of clearance is that.

It's not a clearance. It's VFR departure instructions from a busy Class D airport. Read the OP.

 

[RalphInCA]

Good stuff guys. thanks!

 

[flyingron]

It's not a clearance. It's VFR departure instructions from a busy Class D airport. Read the OP.

Let me rephrase. What kind of instruction is that?
Even VFR instructions tend to follow the given ordering.

 

[flyingron]

By the way for those at VNY, they changed the ATIS today to 127.55.

 

[MAKG1]

Let me rephrase. What kind of instruction is that?
Even VFR instructions tend to follow the given ordering.

Yes, but there is no clearance and no squawk code, and there may or may not be an altitude restriction. It's a Class D airport. You wouldn't even have to have a transponder at all if LAX weren't so close.

So, CRAFT becomes RF.

 

[Old Fart]

By the way for those at VNY, they changed the ATIS today to 127.55.

Nice to know - all my stuff still says 118.45

 

[CTLSi]

Re: Copying / remembering clearances

Had my first experience with clearance delivery yesterday. My instructor and made a quick flight from my home base to VanNuys.

When we were ready to take off from VNY, I had to contact clearance delivery for instructions. I did this and they then gave me some instructions (speaking kind of fast) which included where to go after takeoff, frequencies, and a checkpoint to report over.

This may seem simple to you old dogs out there, but it was very confusing to this newbie.

Suggestions on how I can copy down or remember the instructions so I don't sound like an idiot next time?

Are you talking about IFR or VFR? It matters.

For VFR they give you a squawk code and a frequency. For IFR they give you a LOT more, including the vector and altitude if your radio goes out.

 

[Marauder]

Based on the original poster's comments, this was his first experience with getting instructions at a controlled field. I've been in his situation.

"Cessna 1234X taxi to runway 32 via A, D, cross runway 26, then D1."

That alone could overwhelm a new pilot, let alone a student. Add in transponder codes, direction of flight, altitude restrictions and it may be too much to remember.


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[poadeleted20]

For now, "Say again slowly, please" when you can't keep up. Eventually, you'll find you stop saying that.

 

[eetrojan]

Hmmm. I thought Van Nuys (KVNY) was a Class C airport, but now see that it's a Class D, albeit one with a separate clearance delivery frequency.

I recall a thread where some strenuously argued that a VFR pilot need not contact clearance delivery unless the AFD or ATIS specifically instructed you to do so. Neither the AFD for KVNY nor the ATIS (818-780-4993) say that all aircraft must contact clearance delivery.

Ralph, can you ask your instructor about whether or not you could have skipped clearance delivery and simply squawked VFR, contacted ground when you were ready to taxi, and then informed tower of your intended direction of departure when you were ready to takeoff?

 

[Jmcmanna]

VNY would probably be a class C airport if BUR wasn't so close. They give all of their VFR departures squawk codes so they can keep track of everyone on the tower radar display (I worked at SMO; we took pride in the point that we could keep track of everyone without giving out codes and using the radar. This was 7 years ago though).

The CD person writes up a little strip on you and passes it to the ground controller (if ground is split off from clearance). It has the aircraft type, direction away from the airport, and beacon code. When you call ground, they now have all your information. When you approach the runway, ground passes that strip to the local controller who will clear you for takeoff and work you out of the airspace.

If you were to skip clearance and just call ground, the controller would either tell you to call clearance delivery, or perform the clearance delivery functions (get all your info, write up a strip) as a courtesy...which will take their attention away from watching the movement areas and assisting the local controllers.

 

[eetrojan]

Thanks Jmcmanna.

To your knowledge, are VNY pilots somehow directed to start with clearance delivery?

Also, more generally - based on your experience, would you recommend that a VFR pilot always start with clearance delivery when such service is available, even if not specifically directed to do so?

 

[matthammer]

CRAFT is what I used to use when I taught instrument flying. You can also look up your N number on Flight Aware after you've filed (and about 30 minutes before departure) and it will have the route you can expect to be given. Other than that, the key is practice. Have your instructor make up clearances and fire them off to you while you try to copy and repeat them. Over time you'll become comfortable with it.

Edit: Just realized you were talking about VFR clearances. The bit about practice and working outside the airplane with your CFI still applies, though.

 

[flyingron]

Really? As long as I put in some reasonably formatted plan, flight aware parrots back the same one I filed. The one I actually get issued (especially through the NY-BOS-PWM megopolis) is whatever ATC thinks is a preferred route. it gets changed at the time the flight data person gets around to finding out I've filed something they won't let me fly.

 

[Jmcmanna]

Generally, if the airport has a published clearance delivery frequency, you would start there (like in the A/FD, or sometimes it's on the ATIS). When you call them, they'll give you whatever information you need. Sometimes, clearance delivery and ground control are the same controller working two separate frequencies, and sometimes they're two separate controllers. Clearance Delivery is also a great frequency to use to ask questions about airspace or local procedures, etc...

Every Air traffic facility has a clearance delivery position. At a lot of them, it is combined with ground control all the time (like at most airports in class D airspace). Some places (like GRB), there is a separate clearance delivery frequency, but it is combined to ground control the vast majority of the time (one controller working two frequencies). Other places, like ORD and LAX, have clearance delivery open most of the day.

Look at it this way...instead of clearance delivery being something you do sometimes when you're at a busier airport, think of it as something you do at every airport with a tower, but sometimes you don't have to switch frequencies to call ground control.

Thanks Jmcmanna.

To your knowledge, are VNY pilots somehow directed to start with clearance delivery?

Also, more generally - based on your experience, would you recommend that a VFR pilot always start with clearance delivery when such service is available, even if not specifically directed to do so?

 

[flyingron]

Unfortunately at class C and D airports, there's no hard and fast rule for VFR departures. Unless you know what the local custom is, you're running a 50-50 roll of the dice. I've called CD at several class C airports and was just told to make the request with ground. There are some class D airports with delusions of grandeur, that you'd call CD rather than ground, but that's and oddity. Most class D's don't even give specific VFR departure instructiion: You call ground to taxi, and tower to takeoff (who may ask you which way you're heading but usually does not).

VNY is a special case as it's tucked up under a class C which butts up to one of the busiest class B's in the country.

 

[matthammer]

Really? As long as I put in some reasonably formatted plan, flight aware parrots back the same one I filed. The one I actually get issued (especially through the NY-BOS-PWM megopolis) is whatever ATC thinks is a preferred route. it gets changed at the time the flight data person gets around to finding out I've filed something they won't let me fly.

I never used it much, but when I did it was pretty much always the same (or very nearly the same) as the clearance issued by ATC. That was flying out of TTN, right between the NYC and PHL bravos, too. I fly more 121 than 91 now, but it still seems pretty accurate. Can't say I've checked it too much lately, though.

 

[Luvrv8]

If you want flight following out of KVNY then you have to contact clearance delivery, if you just want to fly out of there then you can start with ground.

 

[Shawn]

Ralph...I can relate to your VNY experience. I trained at a towered airport and have since become very comfortable on the radio and dealing with Class C departure instructions VFR and have basically used the CRAFT method even for VFR. Just a few weeks ago I diverted into VNY due to weather. First time there. Once on the ground I was able to get a game plane to get to my destination and avoid the weather that was closing, so I was back ready for takeoff pretty quick. The departure instructions they gave me were based on a lot of local VFR visual reporting points and some that were not official points...it threw me for a loop and took a clarification once or twice especially not being familiar with the local procedures!

...otherwise in general it get easier with practice as you learn what to expect.

One of the best things my instructor taught me was to use the phrase "student pilot" ALWAYS while training. For me always made ATC MUCH more helpful.

 

[kgruber]

Good thing to do..........sit in FBO for an afternoon, sipping free coffee, hobnob with a few pro pilots, and listening to clearance delivery on your handheld.

It will get easier.

 

[noahfong]

Let me rephrase. What kind of instruction is that?
Even VFR instructions tend to follow the given ordering.

Yes, but there is no clearance and no squawk code, and there may or may not be an altitude restriction. It's a Class D airport. You wouldn't even have to have a transponder at all if LAX weren't so close.

So, CRAFT becomes RF.

Don't let this exchange diminish the advice about CRAFT. Yes, it's an IFR tool, but useful for VFR because it represents the 5 things (6 if you count reporting instructions) you may be given as a clearance or instruction and helps you be prepared. Even a simple transition can follow the CRAFT. Consider this, which more typical than some folks think:

(On a flight already receiving flight following, so you already have a squawk code. You want to transition PAO low level towards SQL. SFO bravo will be at 1500 over SQL).

" Cleared/approved as requested
Keep 101 to your left
Remain clear of bravo
Radar services terminated, keep your code
Contact San Carlos, now, 119.0"

If you dissect it, it has every element of the CRAFT (the clear of bravo comment warns you to keep your altitude below 1500). Yes, you may not get all the elements every time, but being prepared will help you.

It's good advice.

 

[RalphInCA]

Based on the original poster's comments, this was his first experience with getting instructions at a controlled field. I've been in his situation.

"Cessna 1234X taxi to runway 32 via A, D, cross runway 26, then D1."

That alone could overwhelm a new pilot, let alone a student. Add in transponder codes, direction of flight, altitude restrictions and it may be too much to remember.


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Yep. It was a little overwhelming for this student. But, as others have said here, the more I practice and study, the easier it will get.

I purchased a copy of Bob Gardners Say Again book, and downloaded some useful cheat sheets that will help me get more familiar with ATC communications. Also have been listening to VNY communications via LiveATC when ever I get a chance.

Exciting, challenging stuff. I love it.

 

[RalphInCA]

VNY is a special case as it's tucked up under a class C which butts up to one of the busiest class B's in the country.

SoCal / LA area is certainly an interesting place to fly.

Lots of challenges. Complicated airspace, lots of airplanes, mountains, high density altitudes, island airports, mountain airports, desert airports, all within a few minutes of each other.

GA heaven?

 

[RalphInCA]

Good thing to do..........sit in FBO for an afternoon, sipping free coffee, hobnob with a few pro pilots, and listening to clearance delivery on your handheld.

It will get easier.

Is there a way to listen to CD on my iPhone via LiveATC or something similar?

 

[eetrojan]

There's a LiveATC app, but you can also get to LiveATC with your iPhone's browser and then search for an airport.

http://www.liveatc.net/

Press the lower of the two green buttons to "Listen" with your iPhone's built-in MP3 player.

You can even save a particular airport as a "Bookmark" icon so you can go directly to it in the future, e.g.:

http://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=ksna

Unfortunately, at least with KSNA, it seems that the radio scanners are combining clearance deliver, ground, tower, and approach onto one channel, prioritizing one over the other in some fashion such that some stuff gets blocked. Also, I often hear only ATC's side of the transaction. Maybe it's better at other airports?

 

[RalphInCA]

There's a LiveATC app, but you can also get to LiveATC with your iPhone's browser and then search for an airport.

http://www.liveatc.net/

Press the lower of the two green buttons to "Listen" with your iPhone's built-in MP3 player.

You can even save a particular airport as a "Bookmark" icon so you can go directly to it in the future, e.g.:

http://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=ksna

Unfortunately, at least with KSNA, it seems that the radio scanners are combining clearance deliver, ground, tower, and approach onto one channel, prioritizing one over the other in some fashion such that some stuff gets blocked. Also, I often hear only ATC's side of the transaction. Maybe it's better at other airports?

Thanks. I knew about all that, but I was looking for a scanner feed just for clearance delivery. So I can practice copying down clearances (or VFR routing instructions).

One thing I have been doing on LiveATC is pretending I am the pilot the controller is talking to, and speaking out loud whatever the pilot response should be to the instructions. This is starting to help.

I noticed there are some DVD based communications training tools on Sporty's. Any value to these?

 

[MAKG1]

Thanks. I knew about all that, but I was looking for a scanner feed just for clearance delivery. So I can practice copying down clearances (or VFR routing instructions).

One thing I have been doing on LiveATC is presenting I am the pilot the controller is talking to, and speaking out loud whT ever the pilot response should be to the instructions. This is starting to help.

I noticed there are some DVD based communications training tools on Sporty's. Any value to these?

There is always VATSIM and PilotEdge, especially since you fly in LA.

But, honestly, it will come with practice. Not even that much of it.

LiveATC is very spotty, and the receivers aren't always in acceptable locations. If you listen to KRHV, for instance, you will only hear airborne transmissions. The ground is shadowed. So, you hear the occasional read back, but nothing at all from Tower or Ground.

The main thing you need to practice is "say again." You can restrict it if you like -- for instance "say altitude again" or "say departure frequency again."

 

[Bill Watson]

Unfortunately at class C and D airports, there's no hard and fast rule for VFR departures. Unless you know what the local custom is, you're running a 50-50 roll of the dice. I've called CD at several class C airports and was just told to make the request with ground. There are some class D airports with delusions of grandeur, that you'd call CD rather than ground, but that's and oddity. Most class D's don't even give specific VFR departure instructiion: You call ground to taxi, and tower to takeoff (who may ask you which way you're heading but usually does not).

True enough and that sometimes, infrequently, applies to IFR departures. Case in point, Allegheny County Airport (Pittsburgh) KAGC. I flew in and out of there 6 times in quick succession, all IFR legs. CD was rarely absolutely consistent with the CRAFT format and on at least 3 of those departures, didn't give me the departure frequency (!!??). I guess a management problem. But since it underlies the formerly very busy Pittsburgh Class B, it seemed really negligent to launch an IFR flight without a freq, even if they planned to provide it on the handoff (at least once they didn't do that either). It's almost like they give up responsibility for the IFR flight to Greater Pitt when I would have thought their proximity would encourage the opposite.

One of the best things my instructor taught me was to use the phrase "student pilot" ALWAYS while training. For me always made ATC MUCH more helpful.

After you get your certificate you'll find "unfamiliar" does wonders as well. It's standard phraseology for ground ops but works well in the air too - especially when given some local visual landmarks that aren't charted or otherwise obvious.