Continue a thread (Engines)

Discussion in 'Maintenance Bay' started by Tom-D, Jun 10, 2020.

  1. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    I wonder how many readers would buy a factory rebuilt engine or have a good shop do it?

    Your engine is toast, now what.
     
  2. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

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  3. RyanB

    RyanB Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Can’t go wrong with either imo. Carlus Gann at Gann Aviation (who used to build engines for Bill Elliott) does all of the overhauls at the flight school and I strongly believe his engines are every bit as good as a factory reman.
     
  4. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

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    Would probably never do a factory engine but would have one done from a reputable shop. Would have to have some first hand experience with the person before letting just any A&P build one.
     
  5. chemgeek

    chemgeek Pattern Altitude

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    I'd have to know the shop well, but sure. I went with a well known OH shop when my engine reached that time, not factory reman. I had used the OH shop before to refurbish cylinders, with excellent work that was trouble free, so I had an idea of quality and turnaround.
     
  6. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    I know someone who bought one. Took three months to show up.
     
  7. Mason

    Mason Pattern Altitude

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    Depends on the shop.
     
  8. ktup-flyer

    ktup-flyer En-Route

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    I have a 5 year old factory reman O-470-U in mine. No issues, but I don't expect the TCM jugs to last
     
  9. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I'd do factory new, but I suppose it really depends on budget.
     
  10. Bob Noel

    Bob Noel Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I went with Penn Yan for a rebuild to new specifications. One factor was their help in converting it from 150hp to 160hp.
     
  11. Bill

    Bill Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    As I just posted in the other thread:
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1.5 yrs ago. Lyco IO-360 A3B6, we exchanged our old A3B6D on a factory overhaul.

    Reasons for going with Lyco was moving from flat to roller tappets , and ditching the Siamese mags for two real mags. Also, our existing engine was already on its third run, so not as much of a big deal to exchange. No matter who we went with we wanted new Lyco factory cylinders.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So, when it came time, I spend many phone calls talking to @Ted DuPuis as he used to work for Lyco in engine durability/testing. We got quotes from:

    Lycoming
    Pen Yan
    Signature
    Zephyr
    Gann (local shop with very good reputation)

    Interestingly, all quotes were +/- $2k with each other, so it all boiled down to what we thought would best serve our purposes. Getting rid of the siamese mag was a big point for us, and Ted told of recent bad runs of flat tappets. The bad tappets would start galling about 200hrs into engine life. If you caught it early, you'd save the cam, but in either case it's a Lycoming, which means the cases have to be slit again. And with our usage, that would be out of the warranty period, so guess who pays? This information drove us to roller tappets, and the ONLY way to get that swap was to go factory Lycoming overhaul.
     
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  12. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    My experience? Have bought two Continental reman. One failed in 25 hours, the other had the crank recalled at 100 hours. Had a local shop build the second one into a Pponk with a new 520 crank. Still going strong. Built a PA-12 from the ground up including doing a 160hp O-320 balanced, flow matched, and to new clearance with my mechanic in his shop. That motor was and still is the smoothest 320 anyone who’s flown it has ever seen. Bought a new Superior engine. Recalled. Bought a new Lycoming Thunderbolt. So far so good.

    The option to locally overhaul requires having an engine to start with. I favor that option when possible. Do your own quality control. To assemble a basket of used parts with unknown history? Not interested. And that applies to remans.
     
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  13. MIFlyer

    MIFlyer Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    Of course, it depends. The first consideration would be whether a used engine would be a good value (looking to what's on the market) and whether it REALLY needs an OH, or if it needs a couple of cylinders.

    Assuming it needs a motor, and I've decided to OH, I'd look in three directions

    1. If a Lycoming, and I have the non-roller engine, what's my option through Airpower to do a factory reman and potentially (depending on the rules of the day at Lycoming) get an upgraded engine
    2. If a continental, look at a local rebuild (Tom) or going to one of the engine shops (Corona or the guy down in the Gulf coast doing a lot of them, well, for a good cost)

    I can't imagine going to a high end engine shop personally (unless you're doing an upgrade, like a Pponk), I'd either find a reputable value engine shop or do a factory exchange.
     
  14. donjohnston

    donjohnston Cleared for Takeoff

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    Over 12 hours since the original post and Tom hasn't told anybody they're wrong yet?

    The world has gone crazy.
     
  15. idahoflier

    idahoflier Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    I'm 6 months into a Penn Yan O-360 overhaul. No local field overhaul options existed...
     
  16. NordicDave

    NordicDave Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Over on BeechTalk there are several threads regarding factory new and reman Continental engines with expensive issues shortly after warranty expiration. Mostly issues with metallurgy and cylinder assembly. Seems a shift in quality with recently adopted new equipment and people involved in the process.
     
  17. Bill

    Bill Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I was told that for Lycoming, factory Lyco cylinders are the best, for Continental, factory Conti cylinders suck, and you're better off aftermarket.
     
  18. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Really, every one talks about overhauling, anyone ever hear of a repaired engine? there is no requirement for TBO, so why simply fix it. all parts in any can be replaced.


    When you thing about it, have the cost of a new or rebuilt engine is the insurance for the liability
     
  19. MarkH

    MarkH Pre-takeoff checklist

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    For me, it depends.

    My engine currently has around 1000 hours SMO, if it died now, I would have a long talk about fixing it rather than 0 timing it.

    But when I am quoted the cost of the repair, I will be doing the math to determine if it's worthwhile to just bite the bullet on an overhaul, because if the work requires (functionally) 0 timing the bottom end, it may be worth the extra few thousand to overhaul the top end too and be able to sell it as 100 hours SMO.

    Once it gets over 2000 hours, I would consider zero timing it for almost anything that involves splitting the case. Partially because my plane is a time builder that I plan to sell in a few years to upgrade (hopefully to an experimental that I will be keeping for a very long time).

    As for top end issues, mostly just fix them. But, if 2 or more jugs go bad at the same time, and I have the cash lying around I would look really hard at a 160hp STC.
     
  20. Bob Noel

    Bob Noel Touchdown! Greaser!

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    what's the difference between an overhaul and a repair?

    Doesn't the cost of a repair include the cost of insurance for the liability?
     
  21. Bill

    Bill Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Depends on the frequency of failures. Within a 9 month time frame, we had sheered cylinder studs on #1, repaired, then a busted piston ring on #3, repaired, then #2 ate an intake valve. At that point, the engine was at 2250hrs and didn't owe us anything. It was talking to us: "Replace me before I do something REALLY bad"

    We listened.
     
  22. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    How much insurance does the A&P carry?
     
  23. bluerooster

    bluerooster Pattern Altitude

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    An overhaul is a "repair". A repair is a "repair". Taking it apart and replacing everything except the crank case, with brand new factory parts, is a "repair". The difference between repair, overhaul, and re-man. is who is doing the job, and how they sign the logs.

    I repaired a carburettor, by replacing every single piece (except the casting) with brand new Marvel Schebler parts. Set everything to factory new tolerance. Then it was logged as an IRAN. I achieved the same product, mabe even better, than if I'd sent it off to Tempest for overhaul.

    So, to answer the OPs question; It depends. ;)
     
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  24. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    yup....you had me thing-ing.
     
  25. Domenick

    Domenick Pre-takeoff checklist

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    What is it called if you build entire engine around a data plate?
     
  26. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Proper answer
     
  27. Snowmass

    Snowmass Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Easy to answer for me to answer since I have done both my IO-520 overhauls myself even though I am not an A&P, saving a bundle. Legal with supervision and signoff. Last one cost about $14k with new crankshaft (special TCM AD price) and all new cylinder assemblies. Aircraft engines are simple 1935 technology tractor engines.
     
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  28. NordicDave

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    Overhaul.
     
  29. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    not always
     
  30. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    if that was more popular, we could get the prices down.
     
  31. bluerooster

    bluerooster Pattern Altitude

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    or repair.
     
  32. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

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    Bring black Permatex, lots of it........:eek:
     
  33. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    ProSeal works much better..... ;)
     
  34. NordicDave

    NordicDave Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    OK, if we’re going to get pedantic, strictly by the regs someone could probably call it an IRAN or repair. From a practical standpoint who in their right mind would take a data plate then acquire or assemble 100% of the parts required to build the engine for that data plate, and then not reset TBO by assembly according to the M-O and call it an overall?

    A repair is implausible, given same amount of work to a 0 SMOH.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2020
  35. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    This is a buyers perspective, If it doesn't say "Overhauled" the buyers think some thing was omitted.
     
  36. Bob Noel

    Bob Noel Touchdown! Greaser!

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    correction: some buyers.
     
  37. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

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    Without a paper trail of the part replacement under that data plate you would call it an E/AB engine.
    FYI: While there’s not as much guidance on engines, just like building an airframe from a data plate, there are specific steps that have to take place. Simply having a data plate, obtaining a complete set of different parts and calling it an OH isn’t one of them without the correct documentation--the 1st one being 45.13(e).
     
  38. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    (e) No person may install an identification plate removed in accordance with paragraph (d)(2) of this section on any aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, propeller blade, or propeller hub other than the one from which it was removed.
    ----
    (d) Persons performing work under the provisions of Part 43 of this chapter may, in accordance with methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the FAA—

    (1) Remove, change, or place the identification information required by paragraph (a) of this section on any aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, propeller blade, or propeller hub; or

    (2) Remove an identification plate required by §45.11 when necessary during maintenance operations.
     
  39. bluerooster

    bluerooster Pattern Altitude

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    Point is this; It can be logged as just about anything, repair, IRAN, overhaul, whatever. Except rebuilt, or remanufactured. And get a new zero time logbook. Unless it was done by the manufacturer, or their designee.
     
  40. Stephen Shore

    Stephen Shore Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Obviously lots of variables, but I went with a Lycoming factory remanufactured IO-540 engine.

    I wanted the roller tappets AND I had a first run engine to turn in which makes a huge difference on the net cost of this option. Lycoming really wants first run engines to where it made the total cost almost the same as a non-factory overhaul.

    I just got through break-in on the new engine and I am completely satisfied. Oil burn from the start was practically nil, the delta on the CHTs is 23 degrees, and there is absolutely ZERO oil leaks from this engine.

    If you have a first run engine,you will find that you have quite a bit of negotiating power. They need those engines.