Confusing: Why can a magenta airport on the sectional be in Class D?

Hocky said:
So according to you this is a Class D airspace with no tower?

WTF!
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Class D airspace with no tower?

item81337_jpg.jpg


NOT!
 
The data was not complete when the chart was finalized. It says RIGHT ON THE CHART to check the NOTAMS or A/FD for Class D information. I don't know why this is so hard.
 
Pilawt said:
But not as weird as the pilots who are based there.

(see sig line)

:D
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I know -- you originally suggested I go there when I visited Portland a year or so ago.

It's a very nice airport. I rented a 180 HP 172 there for a sightseeing trip around Mt. St. Helens. Spectacular flight with amazing visibility (4 peaks).

That local procedure really is an oddball, though. So is naming reporting points by smell (Frito-Lay, and yes, it does smell like potato chips).

And that procedure confuses visitors. The guy in front of me for takeoff contacted Portland Advisory as required and then sat there waiting for "Cleared for Takeoff." Portland doesn't control the runway, so it never comes. I got on the radio and reminded him the field was non towered.
 
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Matthew said:
Well, I learned something.

Oh, and your CFI is still wrong.
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I will run that by him later.

"Hey this guy on the internet says you wrong. He has a monkey for an avatar so I'm sure he's legit. His name? Matthew I think. He's a really smart guy. He says you're wrong, don't shoot the messenger".
 
Hocky said:
I will run that by him later.

"Hey this guy on the internet says you wrong. He has a monkey for an avatar so I'm sure he's legit. His name? Matthew I think. He's a really smart guy. He says you're wrong, don't shoot the messenger".
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:D

He'll know me!

My point, and others', you can't make that assumption based on that sectional only.
 
Are you the same dude who went on an angry rampage in the Death Grip on Yoke thread? They have classes for that (anger management, not death grips).
 
Here's the deal. Designating airspace as Class D takes more than just putting it on the chart. There is a whole regulatory process that is involved and it's not a trivial effort. You'll sometimes notice odd notches in class B and C airspace where an airport once was, but has long since disappeared, yet the notch remains.

So in the case of HQZ, someone had the forthought to get the class D designation process underway. Something probably happened that delayed opening of the tower, so at press time of the latest sectional, the airspace change was active, but the airport was still not towered. The tower later opened, and a NOTAM was submitted to that effect.

The lesson here, and the answer to the question: how do I know if the airport is towered?...look for the blue airport symbol and check the A/FD and notams. Take a look at HTO for another example...its a seasonal tower.

How do I know is a certain airspace is designed class D?....look for the dashed blue airspace.

Like others have mentioned, class D airspace can exist without a control tower, and there can be charted Class G towers (BKT is an example).
 
Matthew said:
Not - your CFI might have been right, but for the wrong reasons.

The current A/FD does show a tower. The sectional does not, wait until the next issue of the sectional comes out and then see what it shows.
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Even better, look in the back of the current A/FD and read the Aeronautical Chart Bulletins...that's where the feds publish such information every 56 days between chart publication dates. Those little green books contain a wealth of information.

Bob Gardner
 
Hocky said:
I will run that by him later.
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You can do that, but consider this.

First off, your CFI will say that we are wrong.

But also consider this. There are two CFIs at least and one Air Traffic Controller that is saying your CFI is wrong. If he was any good, he would say something to the effect of "Hmm. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe I should look into this a little further."

Bottom line is that an airport depicted in Magenta does NOT have an operating control tower. Again, that does not mean that one could not have been commissioned after the chart was published, which it appears that you don't want to accept as possible.

Anyway, you do your research, and it is well within your rights to ask your CFI to look into it deeper also.
 
Hocky said:
No, I hate being the student who corrects the teacher, but YOU are not right. You say there are two revision dates? Well that is nice, but I am holding only ONE chart. Is that airport class D or not? That is the question. It turns out it IS class D EVEN THOUGH it is magenta. As I'm flying along I am referring to the chart. I look at Mesquite and need to decide whether I need to remain clear or not. His point was stay away from the blue dotted line even though the airport is magenta because the blue dotted line is the final authority on the sectional.

At least I admit to being confused.
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Just to muddy the waters a tad, look up Lake City, Florida on Skyvector or whatever. It has a tower but is in Class G airspace...and it's not the only one.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
Even better, look in the back of the current A/FD and read the Aeronautical Chart Bulletins...that's where the feds publish such information every 56 days between chart publication dates. Those little green books contain a wealth of information.

Bob Gardner
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I was just thinking about that a minute ago, but I didn't have a chance to find the digital version before you posted.

Normally, you'll see what seems like hundreds of towers to either be added or deleted, and there are always a few airports being removed.
 
Brad Z said:
… and there can be charted Class G towers (BKT is an example).
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When there is a big aviation event at a non towered airport, there is sometimes a "temporary tower" brought in. The tower, hours, and frequency are published in a NOTAM. The airspace class doesn't (usually) change, so you get towers in Class E and G. With nothing on the chart.
 
Yes as stated, the usual reason is that turning a control tower can on and off can be done by a NOTAM. Changing airspace requires a rulemaking procedure.
 
MAKG1 said:
When there is a big aviation event at a non towered airport, there is sometimes a "temporary tower" brought in. The tower, hours, and frequency are published in a NOTAM. The airspace class doesn't (usually) change, so you get towers in Class E and G. With nothing on the chart.
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Yep. Check for NOTAMS.
 
bobmrg said:
Just to muddy the waters a tad, look up Lake City, Florida on Skyvector or whatever. It has a tower but is in Class G airspace...and it's not the only one.

Bob Gardner
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That's what I was getting at. SXS & SLJ being towered with no designated D as well. Check for a blue airport, then A/FD & NOTAMS to make sure.
 
Brad Z said:
Here's the deal. Designating airspace as Class D takes more than just putting it on the chart. There is a whole regulatory process that is involved and it's not a trivial effort. You'll sometimes notice odd notches in class B and C airspace where an airport once was, but has long since disappeared, yet the notch remains.
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It's no easier getting it off the chart. Meigs tower was closed not long after Daley nuked Meigs Field but the Class D surface area remained significantly longer, resulting in the airspace curiosity illustrated in the attachment.
 

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roncachamp said:
ICAO Class D airspace is defined as airspace in which communications with ATC is required, VFR flight is permitted, and IFR/IFR separation is provided.
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Just curious, how about KVUO, the example MAKG mentioned? The AFD seems to suggest that no IFR separation is provided:
COMMUNICATIONS: CTAF 119.0
UNICOM 123.0
VANCOUVER RCO 122.35 (SEATTLE RADIO)®
PORTLAND APP CON 118.1 (100º–279º) 124.35 (280º–099º)
CLNC DEL 119.0 121.65
VFR ADVSY SVC 119.0
AIRSPACE: CLASS D
svc continuous. VFR Advisory Service only.

COMM/NAV/WEATHER REMARKS:
Arrivals ctc Pearson Advisory on 119.0 prior to entering Class D airspace for tfc and wake turbulence advisories. Departures ctc Pearson Advisory on 119.0 prior to departure​
 
NoHeat said:
Just curious, how about KVUO, the example MAKG mentioned?
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Having experienced that airspace, the best I can figure is, it's a way for Portland Tower to instruct every aircraft to remain clear of Class C, and to tell you to get the F out of the way if you're too close to Portland departures or arrivals.

The field is directly below the extended centerline of one of the commonly used Portland runways, and the floor of Class C is just barely above TPA. It's real close in there.

Portland won't even give you flight following. I tried that, and got told to contact Seattle Center outside Class D.

Also notice that the VFR advisory service and CD frequencies are the same. Both of which are also CTAF.

I think that "VFR advisory service only" means they are not sequencing landing traffic, something that normally happens in Class D.
 
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NoHeat said:
Just curious, how about KVUO, the example MAKG mentioned? The AFD seems to suggest that no IFR separation is provided:
COMMUNICATIONS: CTAF 119.0
UNICOM 123.0
VANCOUVER RCO 122.35 (SEATTLE RADIO)®
PORTLAND APP CON 118.1 (100º–279º) 124.35 (280º–099º)
CLNC DEL 119.0 121.65
VFR ADVSY SVC 119.0
AIRSPACE: CLASS D
svc continuous. VFR Advisory Service only.

COMM/NAV/WEATHER REMARKS:
Arrivals ctc Pearson Advisory on 119.0 prior to entering Class D airspace for tfc and wake turbulence advisories. Departures ctc Pearson Advisory on 119.0 prior to departure​
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I see nothing that suggests no IFR separation is provided in the VUO Class D airspace. I'm confident Portland approach does not clear IFR departures from VUO while IFR aircraft are on approach.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I still say your CFI is wrong. That dotted blue line does not really indicate that the airport has a control tower. It is the blue airport symbol that does. Ask your CFI what the tower frequency is. The airspace may or may not be class D but the airport is not.
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The FAA needs to go through the NPRM process in order to deactivate Class D airspace - so until they do that- there is going to be a blue ring around the airport - but - if the airport is magenta it does not have an operating control tower.

This was on my oral for my instrument ticket. . . .
 
comanchepilot said:
The FAA needs to go through the NPRM process in order to deactivate Class D airspace - so until they do that- there is going to be a blue ring around the airport - but - if the airport is magenta it does not have an operating control tower.

This was on my oral for my instrument ticket. . . .
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Having magenta is mostly correct. Still gotta check the NOTAMS for temporary control towers operating at magenta airports. They are certified controllers operating out of certain events that have a large number of aircraft flying in for a short period of time. Also in rare cases (06AL, 22AL) you have permanent control towers with a magenta indication operating out of private (govt) fields.
 
Velocity173 said:
Having magenta is mostly correct. Still gotta check the NOTAMS for temporary control towers operating at magenta airports. They are certified controllers operating out of certain events that have a large number of aircraft flying in for a short period of time. Also in rare cases (06AL, 22AL) you have permanent control towers with a magenta indication operating out of private (govt) fields.
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True - but the reality is that there is never anything that happens at that part of the nation that requires a temp control tower - and since you have to PAY for one now - no one does it unless they can pay for it. . . . e.g.: Oshkosh.
 
roncachamp said:
I see nothing that suggests no IFR separation is provided in the VUO Class D airspace. I'm confident Portland approach does not clear IFR departures from VUO while IFR aircraft are on approach.
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I was just trying to understand your definition of Class D airspace. Since you used the phrase "defined as".

The AFD seems to indicate that the authority located within the Class D provides VFR advisories only.

If only a controller located outside (not inside, as in a tower) of the VUO Class D can provide IFR-IFR separation within that airspace, how can that "define" a difference from airports in class E or G?
 
MAKG1 said:
Having experienced that airspace, the best I can figure is, it's a way for Portland Tower to instruct every aircraft to remain clear of Class C, and to tell you to get the F out of the way if you're too close to Portland departures or arrivals.

The field is directly below the extended centerline of one of the commonly used Portland runways, and the floor of Class C is just barely above TPA. It's real close in there.
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The proximity of VUO to PDX the the key. The original rationale behind implementation of the Class D back in the late '90s was to require Pearson pilots to check in with Portland ATC to get wake turbulence advisories. ATC also provides traffic information on a workload-permitting basis.

Portland won't even give you flight following. I tried that, and got told to contact Seattle Center outside Class D.

Also notice that the VFR advisory service and CD frequencies are the same. Both of which are also CTAF.
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"Pearson Advisory", on the same freq as Pearson's CTAF, is a dedicated ATC position in the Portland tower. That controller gives the wake turbulence and traffic info, and also acts as VUO's clearance delivery.

If you tell Pearson advisory before takeoff that you want to transit the Class C, he'll give you a squawk code and tell you to contact PDX tower (on the normal PDX frequency) when airborne, and they'll coordinate with TRACON to give you all the services you need. When they told you to contact ZSE, they might have been unusually busy that day, or it might have had to do with your intended direction of flight.

roncachamp said:
I see nothing that suggests no IFR separation is provided in the VUO Class D airspace. I'm confident Portland approach does not clear IFR departures from VUO while IFR aircraft are on approach.
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True.
 
NoHeat said:
I was just trying to understand your definition of Class D airspace. Since you used the phrase "defined as".

The AFD seems to indicate that the authority located within the Class D provides VFR advisories only.

If only a controller located outside (not inside, as in a tower) of the VUO Class D can provide IFR-IFR separation within that airspace, how can that "define" a difference from airports in class E or G?
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From the preamble to 14 CFR Part 71, page P-51:
On March 12, 1990, ICAO through its Air Navigation Commission (ANC)
formally adopted the airspace classification concept in Amendment No. 33 to
Annex 11. The airspace classifications adopted by ICAO, along with the
nearest equivalent U.S. airspace designations, are summarized as follows:


Class A Airspace (U.S. Positive Control Areas). All operations must be
conducted under instrument flight rules (IFR) and are subject to ATC
clearances and instructions. ATC separation is provided to all aircraft.


Class B Airspace (U.S. Terminal Control Areas). Operations may be
conducted under IFR, special visual flight rules (SVFR), or VFR. However,
all aircraft are subject to ATC clearances and instructions. ATC separation
is provided to all aircraft.


Class C Airspace (U.S. Airport Radar Service Areas). Operations may be
conducted under IFR, SVFR, or VFR; however, all aircraft are subject to ATC
clearances and instructions. ATC separation is provided to all aircraft
operating under IFR or SVFR and, as necessary, to any aircraft operating
under VFR when any aircraft operating under IFR is involved. All VFR
operations will be provided with safety alerts and, upon request, conflict
resolution instructions.


Class D Airspace (U.S. Control Zones for Airports with Operating
Control Towers and Airport Traffic Areas that are not associated with a TCA
or an, ARSA). Operations may be conducted under IFR, SVFR, or VFR; however,
all aircraft are subject to ATC clearances and instructions. ATC separation
is provided to aircraft operating under IFR or SVFR only. All traffic will
receive safety alerts and, on pilot request, conflict resolution
instructions.


Class E Airspace (U.S. General Controlled Airspace). Operations may be
conducted under IFR, SVFR, or VFR. ATC separation is provided only to
aircraft operating under IFR and SVFR within a surface area. As far as
practical, ATC may provide safety alerts to aircraft operating under VFR.


Class F Airspace (U.S. Has No Equivalent). Operations may be conducted
under IFR or VFR. ATC separation will be provided, so far as practical, to
aircraft operating under IFR.


Class G Airspace (U.S. Uncontrolled Airspace). Operations may be
conducted under IFR or VFR. ATC separation is not provided.
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There is no authority located within the Vancouver Class D airspace area, Portland approach is the authority for that airspace. Portland approach will provide traffic and wake turbulence advisories to all aircraft in that area. They will provide separation between IFR and SVFR aircraft in that area. They will not provide separation between VFR aircraft, in the air or on the VUO runways.
 
Portland ATCT/TRACON Letter to Airmen No. 13-01, 2/28/2013:

A VFR Advisory Area has been established at Pearson Field (VUO) in Vancouver, WA. Pilots should exercise caution when arriving and departing VUO due to the close proximity of Portland International Airport (PDX) [...]. When operating over the VUO runway, or the extended runway centerline, pilots should maintain at or below 700’ MSL due to overflying traffic to and from PDX.

VUO has a 24-hour Class D surface area but there is no Airport Traffic Control Tower at the airport. Pilots should contact Pearson Advisory on VUO Common Traffic Advisory Frequency (CTAF) 119.0 prior to entering the Class D surface area. Pearson Advisory provides VUO pilots with traffic and wake turbulence advisories about PDX traffic on this frequency.

NOTE - Pearson Advisory does not control VFR aircraft in the VUO Class D surface area.

[…]

Pilots can expect traffic and wake turbulence advisories on PDX traffic and instructions to remain outside Portland Class C airspace. Pilots can also expect to be advised of the current direction of the PDX traffic flow and should, when safe, operate in the same direction as the PDX flow. After initial contact with Pearson Advisory, pilots should resume broadcasting their position and intentions on CTAF (119.0) as they would at any uncontrolled airport.
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Another weird example us Class D airspace immediately north of KLAX. There is no airport there and never has been (it is NOT the site of the old Hughes airstrip below LMU). It fills in the hole between KLAX and KSMO, and is controlled apparently by SOCAL Approach, hours "pending" (!) in the A/FD.
 
And (by the way) Mesquite's tower is, in fact, bright-shiny-new, began operation as an advisory-only tower early this year, and is fully operational now.
 
ja_user said:
Just because you hold the chart, does not make it the most updated information. Even if it is the newest one you can purchase.
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Another place one can sometimes check for clues that may have more recent information is the approach plate. Those get updated more frequently than the VFR charts.
 
PPC1052 said:
Another place one can sometimes check for clues that may have more recent information is the approach plate. Those get updated more frequently than the VFR charts.
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Approach plates get NOTAMs issued on them too, so let's face it: you always need to check NOTAms before a flight
 
Look at KHTO East Hampton. On the sectional magenta field, with blue class d airspace designation, with a note stating class d by notam. This normally is May through September for all the summer traffic. It is going on a few years now and no change in the color of the airport.
 
Hocky said:
I will run that by him later.

"Hey this guy on the internet says you wrong. He has a monkey for an avatar so I'm sure he's legit. His name? Matthew I think. He's a really smart guy. He says you're wrong, don't shoot the messenger".
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OK, now THAT was funny!:lol::lol:
 
danhagan said:
OK, now THAT was funny!:lol::lol:
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Heh - I was thinking the same thing!

Except I was thinking more along the lines of, "You went on the internet and took advice from some guy with a monkey-at-a-typewriter avatar?"
 
Larry in TN said:
Here's another example of a non-tower field that is within a class D surface area. CKV

http://skyvector.com/?ll=36.62199406296274,-87.41262816808178&chart=301&zoom=2
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KCKV, in the Class D for Fort Campbell?

Looking at the AFD and the sectional chart, I'm not sure whom I would talk to and when. Would you use CTAF when taking off, and then switch to Fort Campbell approach? It would seem odd to depart from a Class D surface area without talking to any ATC.

https://skyvector.com/airport/CKV/Outlaw-Field-Airport
 
NoHeat said:
KCKV, in the Class D for Fort Campbell?

Looking at the AFD and the sectional chart, I'm not sure whom I would talk to and when. Would you use CTAF when taking off, and then switch to Fort Campbell approach?
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That's what I do at CKV. I know guys who will approach from the east and just talk on CTAF too. I always have Campbell approach up as it can get pretty busy in there.
 
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