Confusing: Why can a magenta airport on the sectional be in Class D?

[Hocky]

My CFI asked me how do I know if an airport has a tower? I said if it is blue on the sectional. He said no. I showed him the legend but he still said no, it is overridden by the dotted blue line for class delta. Case in point KHQZ.

So why does the legend say blue airports have towers?

 

[Marauder]

Good question!

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I suspect that Mesquite used to have a control tower and the control zone never got changed after it closed. By definition, Class D airspace only exists when there is an operating control tower. When the control tower is closed, the airspace reverts to Class E.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

My CFI asked me how do I know if an airport has a tower? I said if it is blue on the sectional. He said no. I showed him the legend but he still said no, it is overridden by the dotted blue line for class delta. Case in point KHQZ.

So why does the legend say blue airports have towers?

I still say your CFI is wrong. That dotted blue line does not really indicate that the airport has a control tower. It is the blue airport symbol that does. Ask your CFI what the tower frequency is. The airspace may or may not be class D but the airport is not.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Sounds right. KTVL (South Lake Tahoe) used to have a tower, and I think the first one or two chart revisions after it closed carried the blue Class D boundary.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Interesting. Foreflight's directory says there is a tower frequency, effective 0700 to 2100.

 

[dmspilot]

I suspect that Mesquite used to have a control tower and the control zone never got changed after it closed. By definition, Class D airspace only exists when there is an operating control tower. When the control tower is closed, the airspace reverts to Class E.

I think it is the opposite--that the tower is new. A similar thing happened at KUNV when they got a tower. One edition of the chart showed a Class D blue segmented circle, but with a magenta airport symbol. The next edition it was a blue airport symbol too.

The chart legend says:

Includes airspace amendments effective 6 FEB 2014
and all other aeronautical data received by 9 JAN 2014

And NOTAMS say:

!HQZ 02/002 HQZ SVC TWR COMMISSIONED 120.30 GROUND CONTROL 118.85 SUN-SAT 1300-0300 1402061300-PERM
!HQZ 02/001 HQZ AIRSPACE CLASS D SFC AREA HR CHANGED TO SUN-SAT 1300-0300 1402061300-PERM

So it is essentially a fluke....the airspace existed on Feb 6, but the tower was not open yet on Jan 9.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I think it is the opposite--that the tower is new. A similar thing happened at KUNV when they got a tower. One edition of the chart showed a Class D blue segmented circle, but with a magenta airport symbol. The next edition it was a blue airport symbol too.

The chart legend says:


And NOTAMS say:


So it is essentially a fluke....the airspace existed on Feb 6, but the tower was not open yet on Jan 9.

So, if then the tower is not yet operational, is it Class E by virtue of the tower not being open yet, or do you have to talk to approach?

 

[Hocky]

So my CFI was right then? It IS class D even though the airport is magenta.

That is VERY confusing.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Maybe they did that as a "heads up" that a tower will be opening?

 

[JeffDG]

The redesignation of the airspace takes time. It technically involves a change to 14 CFR Part 71 (well, Subpart D of FAA order 7400.9X which is incorporated in Part 71 by reference).

The tower closes, it's closed...it takes some times for the pencil-pushers to catch up and redesignate the airspace.

 

[dmspilot]

So, if then the tower is not yet operational, is it Class E by virtue of the tower not being open yet, or do you have to talk to approach?

The Class D hours and the CT hours as published in the NOTAMs are identical.

So my CFI was right then? It IS class D even though the airport is magenta.

That is VERY confusing.

The lesson to be learned here is to check NOTAMS. Especially when the chart tells you to.

 

[Matthew]

Did anyone bother to look at the A/FD yet?

http://aeronav.faa.gov/afd/03APR2014/sc_328_03APR2014.pdf

AIRSPACE: CLASS D
svc 1300–0300Z‡ other times CLASS G.

edit:

The answer to your original question should be "The legend says that a blue airport has a tower." The CFI then says, no, it's indicated by the Class D ring. You say, well, let's see what the NOTAMs and A/FD say about it.

Remember that the sectionals take a long time to get updated.

 

[Hocky]

Did anyone bother to look at the A/FD yet?

http://aeronav.faa.gov/afd/03APR2014/sc_328_03APR2014.pdf

AIRSPACE: CLASS D
svc 1300–0300Z‡ other times CLASS G.

Yes, confirmed that it IS a Class D airport with a magenta symbol on the sectional. My CFI was right and almost everyone on this thread is as confused as I am?

 

[Matthew]

Yes, confirmed that it IS a Class D airport with a magenta symbol on the sectional. My CFI was right and almost everyone on this thread is as confused as I am?

Not - your CFI might have been right, but for the wrong reasons.

The current A/FD does show a tower. The sectional does not, wait until the next issue of the sectional comes out and then see what it shows.

 

[Sac Arrow]

That makes it even more confusing.

 

[Pilawt]

Interesting. Foreflight's directory says there is a tower frequency, effective 0700 to 2100.

A/FD says there's a tower, too. I suspect AeroNav goofed. That happens. Contact them. I did a while back when they transposed letters in my airport's identifier on the Sectional. They got back to me with a phone call in a day or two, thanked me for the heads-up, and promptly issued a correction in the Chart Bulletin.

FOR CHARTING COMMENTS:
FAA, AeroNav Products
SSMC–4 Sta. #4503
1305 East West Highway
Silver Spring, MD 20910–3281
Telephone 1–800–626–3677
Email 9–AMC–Aerochart@faa.gov

Otherwise, the airport symbol should be blue if it has a tower, and magenta if not.

My airport has no tower but has its own permanent Class D area (odd situation, because of close proximity to KPDX). The Class D is depicted on the chart and the airport symbol is magenta. A couple of years back we had a temporary control tower for one year, and during that time the airport symbol was blue.

 

[dmspilot]

Yes, confirmed that it IS a Class D airport with a magenta symbol on the sectional. My CFI was right and almost everyone on this thread is as confused as I am?

Your CFI was not right.

I posted the answer already. The chart has two revision dates, one for airspace (Feb 9), one for everything else (such as control tower frequencies) (Jan 6). The Class D is shown because it existed on February 9th, the airport symbol is not blue because the tower did not exist yet on January 6th. The next edition of the chart, the symbol will be blue too.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I still contend the CFI was wrong. I may have been backwards in that the tower was/will be commissioned after the airspace, but the blue dashed line represents the airspace, not the airport. Class D by definition has an operating control tower. And as of the publishing of the sectional in question, Mesquite was NOT a Class D airport.

 

[Hocky]

Your CFI was not right.

I posted the answer already. The chart has two revision dates, one for airspace (Feb 9), one for everything else (such as control tower frequencies) (Jan 6). The Class D is shown because it existed on February 9th, the airport symbol is not blue because the tower did not exist yet on January 6th. The next edition of the chart, the symbol will be blue too.

No, I hate being the student who corrects the teacher, but YOU are not right. You say there are two revision dates? Well that is nice, but I am holding only ONE chart. Is that airport class D or not? That is the question. It turns out it IS class D EVEN THOUGH it is magenta. As I'm flying along I am referring to the chart. I look at Mesquite and need to decide whether I need to remain clear or not. His point was stay away from the blue dotted line even though the airport is magenta because the blue dotted line is the final authority on the sectional.

At least I admit to being confused.

 

[MAKG1]

My CFI asked me how do I know if an airport has a tower? I said if it is blue on the sectional. He said no. I showed him the legend but he still said no, it is overridden by the dotted blue line for class delta. Case in point KHQZ.

So why does the legend say blue airports have towers?

Overridden?

Ask him whether KVUO (Pearson Field, Vancouver, WA) is towered or non towered. Look real close at it. There IS a dashed blue line (though it is coincident with the boundaries of a neighboring Class C, so it is very hard to see), with a magenta airport.

That's a really weird airport, but it shows he's wrong.

There is a "tower," but it's not on the field and doesn't control access to the runway. It's actually an extra station at Portland Intl (KPDX) and provides VFR advisories only. Nevertheless, you have to be in two way contact to use the airspace.

 

[Matthew]

This is a good example of 91.103 "Preflight Action. Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight."

My primary CFI used to pull stunts like this - ask questions about an airport we were flying to, and make sure the answers were NOT on the sectional. She busted me once when we flew to an airport that had a freq. for the lights that was different than the CTAF. It was in the A/FD, plain as day, but I had missed it.

 

[ja_user]

No, I hate being the student who corrects the teacher, but YOU are not right. You say there are two revision dates? Well that is nice, but I am holding only ONE chart. Is that airport class D or not? That is the question. It turns out it IS class D EVEN THOUGH it is magenta. As I'm flying along I am referring to the chart. I look at Mesquite and need to decide whether I need to remain clear or not. His point was stay away from the blue dotted line even though the airport is magenta because the blue dotted line is the final authority on the sectional.

At least I admit to being confused.

Just because you hold the chart, does not make it the most updated information. Even if it is the newest one you can purchase.

 

[Matthew]

No, I hate being the student who corrects the teacher, but YOU are not right. You say there are two revision dates? Well that is nice, but I am holding only ONE chart. Is that airport class D or not? That is the question. It turns out it IS class D EVEN THOUGH it is magenta. As I'm flying along I am referring to the chart. I look at Mesquite and need to decide whether I need to remain clear or not. His point was stay away from the blue dotted line even though the airport is magenta because the blue dotted line is the final authority on the sectional.

At least I admit to being confused.

Sectionals are outdated even before they reach your kneeboard, they get updated every 6 months.

Even the A/FD gets updated every 56 days. What happens if a change is made on day 1? That, too is outdated the day it's printed.

The sectional was ambiguous.

 

[roncachamp]

My CFI asked me how do I know if an airport has a tower? I said if it is blue on the sectional. He said no. I showed him the legend but he still said no, it is overridden by the dotted blue line for class delta. Case in point KHQZ.

So why does the legend say blue airports have towers?

Airports having control towers are shown in blue. Class D airspace is shown by dashed blue lines. Not all Class D airspace contains a towered airport and not all towered airports have controlled airspace at the surface.

Your CFI is wrong.

 

[dmspilot]

No, I hate being the student who corrects the teacher, but YOU are not right. You say there are two revision dates? Well that is nice, but I am holding only ONE chart. Is that airport class D or not? That is the question. It turns out it IS class D EVEN THOUGH it is magenta. As I'm flying along I am referring to the chart. I look at Mesquite and need to decide whether I need to remain clear or not. His point was stay away from the blue dotted line even though the airport is magenta because the blue dotted line is the final authority on the sectional.

At least I admit to being confused.

I'm not wrong. If you compare the revision dates on the chart to the NOTAMs, you would not be confused.

 

[Matthew]

At least VUO has a note on the sectional that says it's Class D.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

No, I hate being the student who corrects the teacher, but YOU are not right.

Well, saying that does not make it so.

You say there are two revision dates? Well that is nice, but I am holding only ONE chart. Is that airport class D or not? That is the question.

As of the publication date of the chart, is was NOT.

It turns out it IS class D EVEN THOUGH it is magenta.

It might be now. But it wasn't at the time. If it is in fact Class D now, if the chart was published today, that airport symbol would be blue.

As I'm flying along I am referring to the chart. I look at Mesquite and need to decide whether I need to remain clear or not. His point was stay away from the blue dotted line even though the airport is magenta because the blue dotted line is the final authority on the sectional.

Yeah, except it is not. If in doubt, it is best to stay away. But those issues can be remedied by a quick call to the nearest FSS to check the NOTAMs.

 

[Hocky]

Just because you hold the chart, does not make it the most updated information. Even if it is the newest one you can purchase.

If that is true then why didn't one revision have Mesquite as a magenta airport, then the next revision show it as blue with the class D dotted line? If having a tower is akin to being pregnant then this sectional shows that being half pregnant is possible if we are to believe the legend. It both has and does not have a tower, according to the legend on the SAME chart.

What kind of crap is that? Is this what I can expect? Charts that you cannot believe with conflicting information?

 

[Velocity173]

My CFI asked me how do I know if an airport has a tower? I said if it is blue on the sectional. He said no. I showed him the legend but he still said no, it is overridden by the dotted blue line for class delta. Case in point KHQZ.

So why does the legend say blue airports have towers?

Your CFI is wrong. You go by the airport itself and not the blue segmented circle. The blue circle indicated a Class D airport. A blue airport, indicates a tower within class G airspace. In the later case you comply with FAR 91.126 during the hours of operation.

 

[Hocky]

It might be now. But it wasn't at the time. If it is in fact Class D now, if the chart was published today, that airport symbol would be blue.

Again it doesn't explain why they didn't print it with no class D dotted line if they decided to show the airport as magenta. How can you have a class D airspace with no tower?

I am even more confused than ever!

 

[Hocky]

Your CFI is wrong. You go by the airport itself and not the blue segmented circle. The blue circle indicated a Class D airport. A blue airport, indicates a tower within class G airspace. In the later case you comply with FAR 91.126 during the hours of operation.

So according to you this is a Class D airspace with no tower?

WTF!

 

[Matthew]

It both has and does not have a tower, according to the legend on the SAME chart.

That's why I said the chart is ambiguous.

You fly long enough and you'll see plenty of charting errors.

So according to you this is a Class D airspace with no tower?

WTF!

No - Class D requires an operating control tower (doesn't it?) With no tower, it's not active Class D. This happens all the time when a tower closes for the night - the chart doesn't get updated then, does it?

 

[MAKG1]

Again it doesn't explain why they didn't print it with no class D dotted line if they decided to show the airport as magenta. How can you have a class D airspace with no tower?

I am even more confused than ever!

You CAN have Class D airSPACE with no tower. Class D controls the airspace, and you might need to be in contact to avoid traffic (not necessarily from THAT airport). Tower controls the runway.

If you carefully read 14 CFR 91.129(c)(1), you'll see that it doesn't mention the tower as your target for two-way communications. It usually is the tower, but it doesn't have to be. Check out KVUO. Read the A/FD entry.

Another counterexample is that sometimes transitioning through the top 1000 feet of Class D, Approach is in charge, rather than Tower. That's actually fairly common. When in doubt, contact who you think is right and you'll get handed off. Just allow enough time for that. But it's in the A/FD (or NOTAM if it's very fresh).

 

[Sac Arrow]

That's why I said the chart is ambiguous.

You fly long enough and you'll see plenty of charting errors.



No - Class D requires an operating control tower (doesn't it?) With no tower, it's not active Class D. This happens all the time when a tower closes for the night - the chart doesn't get updated then, does it?

Yeahbut, the published Class D effective hours are different than the towers operational hours.

 

[roncachamp]

I suspect that Mesquite used to have a control tower and the control zone never got changed after it closed. By definition, Class D airspace only exists when there is an operating control tower. When the control tower is closed, the airspace reverts to Class E.

ICAO Class D airspace is defined as airspace in which communications with ATC is required, VFR flight is permitted, and IFR/IFR separation is provided. In the US, Class D airspace is generally that airspace from the surface to 2,500 feet AGL surrounding those airports that have an operating control tower but do not have Class C or Class B airspace. Generally, not always.

 

[Matthew]

Yeahbut, the published Class D effective hours are different than the towers operational hours.

That's why I don't fly there.

 

[Pilawt]

What kind of crap is that? Is this what I can expect? Charts that you cannot believe with conflicting information?

Considering how many bits of information are on each chart, I think they are marvelously accurate. But not perfect.

What you have here is a reminder to check other sources such as A/FD and NOTAMS. When something doesn't look quite right, as here, check it out!

 

[roncachamp]

Yes, confirmed that it IS a Class D airport with a magenta symbol on the sectional. My CFI was right and almost everyone on this thread is as confused as I am?

"Class D" describes the airspace, not the airport. If this is a new control tower with new Class D airspace scheduled to go into effect at the same time then the best guess is the chart makers screwed up.

 

[Velocity173]

So according to you this is a Class D airspace with no tower?

WTF!

No, I said you have towered controlled fields with no Class D designated airspace (blue circle). You also have towered controlled fields even with no blue airport indicating a tower there. That's why it's always best to check the sectional first and the NOTAMS for the field.