Conflicted. Would you report?

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I am a strongly “mind your own business” person. I recently had an experience I feel I should report, but it feels ridiculous to do so. Several days later, still on the fence. Welcome your thoughts.

Without delving into details, The event was non-trivial and created a legitimate danger to myself and others in a very busy airspace/congested area beneath and likely inside of class B.

What is your threshold for when you shake your head…and when you drop a dime.
 
There may be different standard depending on what the situations was. One test for me is whether I thought the creation of the dangerous situation was the result of intentional actions or a mistake. That's hard to determine when it's a one-time event.
 
do you have an opportunity to discuss the mystery situation with the mystery people? if so I'd go that route and hope to make actual progress instead of "hitting the report button" like some gutless turds do on PoA and literally get nowhere in resolving any issues whatsoever.
 
eman1200 said:
do you have an opportunity to discuss the mystery situation with the mystery people? if so I'd go that route and hope to make actual progress instead of "hitting the report button" like some gutless turds do on PoA and literally get nowhere in resolving any issues whatsoever.
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He’s excited to see “ejection handle pulled” but he will tell his friends it’s in the interest of safety.
 
Depends.

If it is a systemic problem (eg, an ATC practice that seems likely to repeat), you could fill out an ASRS report, and there's a reasonable chance it gets beneficial attention.

If you are just looking to "drop a dime" on someone, tread carefully: when the FAA is clued-in on a potentially dangerous situation, everyone involved becomes involved, and you may well find yourself speaking into the microphone in your own defense, and having to dish up info you never thought would be relevant (and indeed, may not *be* relevant), this subjecting yourself to enforcement action.
 
OP here.
Appreciate the commentary. My inclination not to report wins out. The ‘what I would want’ is for the pilot in question is to recognize the danger they created, learn from it, and not do it again. I just don’t see a way that happens.

The skinny of it: acrobatics over a highly congested area.

More detail: was on a 45 entry to an airport in a congested area, beneath a B shelf. Saw traffic at about 12:30 and 2 mi in a steep dive coming right for me. Made a turn to avoid as they pulled out and entered a full loop. No way they didn’t bust the shelf on both ends of this. Don’t think had any idea I was even there. No comms on the airport freq.

I’m pretty cool headed. Feeling like I flew through an airshow while running my pre-landing checklist was, well…unpleasant.
 
One clarification. After I was clear of conflict, looked at my iPad to see if it was showing the traffic. It was, and I snapped a screenshot with the intent that I could possibly reach out to the other pilot. Aircraft is registered to an LLC.

In the end - I’ll just let it drop. See and avoid!
 
The older I get, the less likely I've gotten to want to "report" someone. If I can't let them know in-person what I think they did wrong and what I think of them, I figure I should just move on.

That being said, one of the most infuriating incidents I've had happen to me was a guy who made an opposite direction straight in while I was doing touch & goes to the preferred calm wind runway. I had to side-step and go around. I landed and taxied to the fuel pumps where he was topping off and chatting on his cellphone. He said he'd never heard or seen me in the pattern and hadn't heard anything on the radio at all. What was I going to do? As he saw it, he didn't do anything wrong. And he wasn't an unreasonable person.

Later on that day, I watched as my fancy 2 year old digital radio rechannelized itself, then changed back. Maybe he didn't hear me. I bought a different radio.
 
Thread OP said:
OP here.
Appreciate the commentary. My inclination not to report wins out. The ‘what I would want’ is for the pilot in question is to recognize the danger they created, learn from it, and not do it again. I just don’t see a way that happens.

The skinny of it: acrobatics over a highly congested area.

More detail: was on a 45 entry to an airport in a congested area, beneath a B shelf. Saw traffic at about 12:30 and 2 mi in a steep dive coming right for me. Made a turn to avoid as they pulled out and entered a full loop. No way they didn’t bust the shelf on both ends of this. Don’t think had any idea I was even there. No comms on the airport freq.

I’m pretty cool headed. Feeling like I flew through an airshow while running my pre-landing checklist was, well…unpleasant.
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Why not report it?
That was blatantly dangerous. And the reality is GA has enough bad press. If something goes wrong, do you think GA will benefit?

If it was not in a congested space, or under a Bravo, I would be in the camp of ignore it. But the lives of others, both those on the ground and those in the air could be impacted when that pilots makes such a mistake again. In addition, I would be very suspect that the pilot in question has not made such stunts before.

Tim
 
If they busted the B airspace, I'm sure they're already in the hot seat.
In general, consider how you would feel if you didn't report it and this behavior repeats, resulting in an accident with collateral damage.
 
Thread OP said:
One clarification. After I was clear of conflict, looked at my iPad to see if it was showing the traffic. It was, and I snapped a screenshot with the intent that I could possibly reach out to the other pilot. Aircraft is registered to an LLC.

In the end - I’ll just let it drop. See and avoid!
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If he was broadcasting ADSB and busted the Class B, the FAA already knows about it.
 
As an acro pilot, my advice is determine whether it violates FAR 91.303. If it does, report it. If not, and you have a way to contact the pilot, do so and express your concern privately.

Most regular acro pilots are quite attentive to FAR limits, because they know that our sport depends on continued support and tolerance by the FAA. If you have ever been to a contest or training session, you will find they are quite strict about safety rules, ESPECIALLY airspace and traffic deconfliction. Every acro pilot's second worst nightmare is being in an inverted 45 down line and seeing an airplane in your windscreen.

Individual yahoos doing casual acro are sometimes less responsible. I suspect that is who you are dealing with here. If so, and they are indeed violating the FAR, reporting them does the rest of us a favor.

There is no regulation prohibiting aerobatics near an airfield, traffic pattern, or approach. It may not be smart, but it's legal in the absence of other violations. The most relevant reg is the restriction on acro below 1500 AGL. That should deconflict with the pattern. What aircraft was the other aircraft at?

Airfields sometimes do have box waivers allowing acro below 1500'. Those boxes will be NOTAMed and should have some sort of comms or observer requirement for compliance.

If the pilot is performing acro inside B airspace, the FAA probably already knows, though they may not be able to identify the aircraft if it is operating without a transponder and ADS-B. If that were a recurring event, I imagine it would become an LEO investigation.

Acro UNDER Bravo airspace is not restricted, except of course where controlled airspace extends to the ground. I fly acro under the Tampa class B shelf with 6K floor, and have spoken to the FAA about it. Perfectly legal and safe.

It can be really hard to find a spot near a class B that is more than 4 miles from an airway. I and others have spent hours scrutinizing sectionals to ensure compliance with that rule. TBH not super related to safety these days. I rarely see traffic on the two airways that pass within sight of our airfield.

That leaves acro over a congested area. Note that is ground congestion, not aerial. I am not well versed on the FAA definition of congestion, because I think it is insane to fly acro over an area without plenty of options for an emergency landing or bailout.

If you are willing to post a map snapshot, I am happy to take a look and give you my opinion.
 
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Report it? said:
The event was non-trivial and created a legitimate danger to myself and others in a very busy airspace/congested area beneath and likely inside of class B.
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Likely you say? That sounds like there's a certain amount of uncertainty and pulling the report trigger in that case would not be my choice.
 
Thanks, all. Appreciate the feedback.

While I was uncomfortable, it is not clear to me that the other pilot did anything wrong. There are folks who are in charge of regulating these things, and I am not one of them.

I am sticking with my default of “mind your own business”.

There was no NOTAM, and neither the field I was entering nor the field the they landed at have an ATIS. The two fields are 4-5 miles apart and are on the same CTAF. Congested area in terms of traffic - but my reference was ground congestion. They made no calls, but - I am aware of no requirement for them to do so. Not concerned about if they busted the bravo, there are good people who manage that. There may be an acro box, but I doubt it. I also think they were witin 4 lateral miles of an airway - but…to be where they were, they should have been talking to departure.

Ed - we ‘know’ each other a bit on the forum and respect your acro knowledge. I may PM you just to better educate myself.

To all - good reminder to see and avoid. I have my ADSB set to suppress non relevant traffic. Had I been relying on getting an alert or seeing them on the screen - no bueno.
 
eman1200 said:
do you have an opportunity to discuss the mystery situation with the mystery people? if so I'd go that route and hope to make actual progress instead of "hitting the report button" like some gutless turds do on PoA and literally get nowhere in resolving any issues whatsoever.
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Someone's salty. Wasn't me btw.
 
Thread OP said:
More detail: was on a 45 entry to an airport in a congested area, beneath a B shelf. Saw traffic at about 12:30 and 2 mi in a steep dive coming right for me. Made a turn to avoid as they pulled out and entered a full loop. No way they didn’t bust the shelf on both ends of this. Don’t think had any idea I was even there. No comms on the airport freq.
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I'm not doubting... but I do have to ask since I flew for years from an Airport under the NY Class B. I find it highly unlikely that they were just out doing random aerobatics in that kind of airspace. Is it your home airport or were you just flying in? Is it possible that there is a designated training area there? And you said diving... So diving out of the Class B???

You might drop by a local flight school and ask them where the training areas are and if there are any aerobatic boxes in the area. That might answer a lot of questions.

And I'm guessing this was a Non Towered Airport. If I had to modify my entry at a Towered Airport, I'd sure be speaking up (aka Reporting) to the Tower so they knew what was up.
 
M20K said:
I'm not doubting... but I do have to ask since I flew for years from an Airport under the NY Class B. I find it highly unlikely that they were just out doing random aerobatics in that kind of airspace. Is it your home airport or were you just flying in? Is it possible that there is a designated training area there? And you said diving... So diving out of the Class B???

You might drop by a local flight school and ask them where the training areas are and if there are any aerobatic boxes in the area. That might answer a lot of questions.

And I'm guessing this was a Non Towered Airport. If I had to modify my entry at a Towered Airport, I'd sure be speaking up (aka Reporting) to the Tower so they knew what was up.
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I'm under the O'Hare B. Saw a younger guy in his RV 4, he's actually a corporate pilot for work. Takes off. Does a hot lap in the pattern. Low pass over the the runway hard pull up and a few rolls. Definitely didn't get into the bravo, but still don't believe aerobatics are acceptable within the lateral limits.

Later on, I'm landing and his stol bro buddy in a husky is waiting to take off. The guy in the rv4 wants to take vids of the husky, so he drove his car 10 feet from the runway on the first taxiway to ramp. Hit up ctaf on base to final asking if that was a car on the taxiway. Crickets.

I had words with him after I went around and landed. Kid is early 20's. Former CFI. "I didn't think I was that close" was the only thing he could get in as it was mostly a one way conversation.
 
If you weren’t in Class B, but under it, than the Class B issue is between them and ATC. Regarding the trajectory, I would talk to the person first and see what kind of reaction you get. If they already have a reputation for recklessness, I’d consider reporting it, but still would try approaching them first. Most likely your perception and their perception of what happened or how dangerous it might have been, won’t align.
 
Racerx said:
don't believe aerobatics are acceptable within the lateral limits.
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Common misconception. The FAA released a legal memo about 20 years ago clarifying that the correct interpretation of the reg was where class B extends to the surface, and there is no prohibition on acro under a class B shelf.

Regardless, your RV pilot clearly violated the minimum altitude restriction for acro.
 
The FAA safety hotline is for just this purpose. While there may not be sufficient evidence to support a certificate action, sometimes just a call from the FSDO is enough to modify behavior and put everyone back on track.

I know it's popular to repeat the "mind your own business" mantra when it comes to bad behavior, but GA is only as strong as our weakest links and weeding out unsafe operations benefits us all.
 
wellknow said:
not sure why it would even be a question if he
for violated regs. he’a putting other peoples lives in danger
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Speaking for myself personally, I think it's useful to consider the safe/legal Venn diagram, and focus on reg violations that truly have an immediate safety impact. I'm not encouraging any to break rules, but I'm pretty sure dropping the dime on a guy flying IFR with a 31 day VOR check is probably not doing anyone any favors.
 
OP Here
Really appreciate all of the perspectives. A few things to clarify items that have been asked.

Overall, while I was very uncomfortable in the situation, it is not clear to me that the other pilot actually did something wrong. I go back and forth as to if they did, and I am of the view that unless I know they were in the wrong, I should mind my own business.

There was no NOTAM. Neither airport has an ATIS, but they use the same freq for CTAF and are about 5 mi apart. The other A/C was not making position calls (though not required to).

When I refer to congestion, I am referring to ground congestion. It’s a highly populated area. It’s also a very busy airspace.

My concern isn’t if they busted the Bravo. There are folks paid to worry about that, and I’m not one of them. I mentioned it as I am really trying to answer for myself “were they actually doing something wrong?” Looking at their ADSB data - they definitely climbed into the shelf, so I assume they were talking to departure (or they will deal with it if not).

I do not believe there is an acro box waiver. This is a busy approach and departure corridor for two major airports. The area is also with 4 nm of an airway.

My preferred path was to try to reach out directly and share my view as the other pilot. But, alas - it’s registered to an LLc.

Ed H - I may send you a PM. You and I are somewhat aquatinted here on POH and I value your acro experience.

A PSA to all - regarding ADSB, eyes outside, and visibility. Check your settings. My ADSB never picked them up until AFTER we would have had a collision. Why? Because I have it set to suppress traffic that is not a threat/relevant. So - when he was several thousand feet above….no threat and not showing on my screen. When that reality changed in seconds, the tech does not keep up. Fortunately, I fly a plane with the wings in the right place, and had just looked up from my fuel pressure after switching to fullest tank. If flew a high wing, I’m not certain I would have seen him. One of those scenarios I just would never have thought of. Holes in the Swiss cheese and all…
 
I THINK, the takeaway is, Let the experience set you on the path of "I don't want to be THAT guy......"
Srsly, the main thing is NOT TO DIE nor cause anyone else to do so.

I've been at your end of the situation with a helo that the CFI occupied the apporach end of a nearby airport and he (it turns out after discussion ) couldn't hear me and I went around x 2 (100% power climbs); when I got home he was doing so at the apporach end of my home airport, too. He was properly tuned but looking at his COM antenna, it's on a very narrow bottom part of the ship and can't possibly have a good ground plane.

We are both mature and the CFI to CFI discussion was mature and not tense: "sometimes Radios are that way". And it was in the presence of a FSDO ASI, who was aboard my ship as we were both putting our ships away.

Accept it and stay alive. And, don't be "that guy".

B
 
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Thread OP said:
Appreciate the commentary. My inclination not to report wins out. The ‘what I would want’ is for the pilot in question is to recognize the danger they created, learn from it, and not do it again. I just don’t see a way that happens.
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The "what I would want" is for that guy not to kill someone else. It sounds like it was only by pure luck that you didn't have a mid-air with the guy, and if he keeps doing what he was doing, it's only pure luck available for the next guy too.

How would you feel if next week that guy takes out a family on vacation, and maybe you could have prevented that by reporting him?

I'm not generally a "report them" kind of guy either, but if you put me and my family at risk, I'm not going to be nearly as likely to let things slide.
 
Now could you pull up the pilots ADS-B track & decipher it? You could do that before posting anything here, which of course removes anonymity.
 
adsb doesn’t track aerobatics well. Poll times are too slow.
 
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