Complex Trainer

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eventualpilot

Pre-takeoff checklist
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eventualpilot
The flight school I train at is looking for a complex airplane (ideally under 75k with low time on engine/prop and no damage history).

I know the Piper Arrow and to some extent the 172RG are the main choices for such a role.

Would either of the below be viable, from cost perspective (operational, maintenance, insurance)?

Mooney M20J
Beechcraft Sierra 24R
 
I think the arrow is a better trainer than a mooney. IMO, the mooney requires more attention to the speeds during landing. also, a lot of pilots are already familiar with cherokees.
 
The three most popular complex trainers are the Piper Arrow, Cessna 172RG Cutlass, and Beech 24 Sierra. The Cutlass has some gear maintenance issues which have made it less popular than the others. Parts for the Sierra are probably a bit more expensive than for an Arrow, but the purchase price is probably less than the Arrow, so that might be a wash. I don't think I've ever seen a flight school using a Mooney for a complex trainer and that speaks volumes to me -- I'm thinking possible reasons include sensitivity to speed on approach, handling with the PC system, more difficult parts support, fuel leak issues, and the manual gear on the older models.

All things considered, I'd probably suggest going with the Arrow if the rest of the training fleet is PA28's or the Cutlass if the rest of the training fleet is 172's -- fleet commonality has its advantages in a flight school operation.
 
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My school has an arrow, never flown it, however it does seem to be a good plane. If its intent is to be a trainer, I would have to go with the arrow.
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't think I've ever seen a flight school using a Mooney for a complex trainer and that speaks volumes to me -- I'm thinking possible reasons include sensitivity to speed on approach, handling with the PC system, more difficult parts support, fuel leak issues, and the manual gear on the older models.
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This used to be not uncommon in the heyday of GA, so I've been told. Maybe not as trainers, but at least available to rent at the FBO.

Since the OP asked specifically about an M20J, they do not have a PC system [although I love mine], and both gear and flaps are electric only. The J was introduced in 1978, and is not considered to be a Vintage model, those are specifically Pre-J [letters A through F, plus a very few remaining M20 models].

I had no trouble learning to fly my all-electric C model the month after my PPL checkride, with all of 52 hours. I suspect they have disappeared from rental line ups due to insurance premiums and the costs of a gear up landing [engine teardowns used to not be required].
 
My sample size is relatively small, but I know two different instructors who worked for two different university flight programs that had Cessna RGs, and both have said they found they found the aircraft marginal as trainers with significantly more down time than Arrows in the same role.

I've never flown a 24R but the Super Musketeer is a sweet handling airplane; that big cabin takes a toll though. If you anticipate renting the aircraft for cross country use renters may prefer the smaller, faster Arrow (then again, slow plane=more Hobbs time).

I have the most experience with an Arrow, and would tend to recommend it based on the reliability and dispatch rate I've seen. Again, small sample size.
 
Though not designed for it, the Arrow has become the leading commercial trainer. It's reliable and stands up to student abuse well.
 
Arrow or a Comanche FTW
 
The only complex airplane I've flow is the Arrow. Flies fine, glides like a safe (older Arrow with the Hershey Bar wings) and the emergency extension system for the gear is dirt simple. What's not to like? Insurance requirements for our club are that to solo if you have no other Arrow experience you need 10 hours dual and at least 100 hours TT. I believe 5 hours dual works if you have previous complex time (but don't quote me on that). You also must fly it at least 3 hours in a 180 day period or get signed off by a CFI again.

No time in the others mentioned, but I've seen nothing in the Arrow that would cause me to not recommend it as a complex trainer.
 
Why not a Bonanza? They are way more rugged than an Arrow or Cutlass, fly nicer, and provide High Performance capability as well. Hook up with the BPPP program and you another market tap, plus you will likely have the only Bonanza around for people to rent. Lazy 8s and Chandelles in Bonanza are a pleasure.

Another option is to pick up a twin, do the CP MEL first and then add on the CP SEL in a 172 or whatever, doesn't have to be complex. The Beech Travelair is a good option there for handling, or a 310 to get some experience with some horsepower, American Flyers uses them.
 
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Hank S said:
This used to be not uncommon in the heyday of GA, so I've been told. Maybe not as trainers, but at least available to rent at the FBO.
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I don't remember Mooney's ever being rented other than as an extreme rarity, and my aviation memory goes back to the late 60's.
 
Parts cost differences are negligible since most all the parts one buys are common third party provider stuff. In 10 years of owning a Beech, I never had to buy a part from Beech.
 
Henning said:
Parts cost differences are negligible since most all the parts one buys are common third party provider stuff. In 10 years of owning a Beech, I never had to buy a part from Beech.
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For the overly frugal flight school empresario that rent outs 180hp machines even a 10 cent increase in gas price will make them cringe and pass a huge surcharge to the customer only to be magnified in a 300 hp trainer.
 
cirrusmx said:
For the overly frugal flight school empresario that rent outs 180hp machines even a 10 cent increase in gas price will make them cringe and pass a huge surcharge to the customer only to be magnified in a 300 hp trainer.
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You get a 225hp 33.
 
Henning said:
Why not a Bonanza?
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I can see the marketing now....

"You too can be an airline pilot for a low price of $100K. Plus, you get to train with these cool epaulets in the best doctor killers around."

Personally, I know of four V-tails on the line locally. There have to be a lot more I don't know about.

Yet, everyone does their commercial training in Cutlass RGs and Arrows for the really obvious reason that they cost half as much as the Bo's.
 
But they don't cost half as much anymore, that's the thing, you can buy a Bo for less than an Arrow or Cutlass now. They do ok renting them in Australia.:dunno:
 
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Debonairs were the complex trainer at my FBO, and they rented out at $220 an hour. Bo's were more. Needless to say. They only got rented for complex and high performance endorsements, pretty much.
 
Henning said:
But they don't cost half as much anymore, that's the thing, you can buy a Bo for less than an Arrow or Cutlass now. They do ok renting them in Australia.:dunno:
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We're talking operating cost, not purchase price. Fuel cost is a major driver, and maintenance/overhaul on six cylinders versus four is another big factor. You just can't rent out a Bonanza for nearly as low a price as an Arrow/Cutlass.
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't remember Mooney's ever being rented other than as an extreme rarity, and my aviation memory goes back to the late 60's.
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I know of three FBOs that had J models for rent back in the early 80s well into the 90s. I used to rent one for longer trips. Local FBO had an Ovation on the line in late 90s that I rented a few timed.
 
Most of the schools at my airport use 172RGs or Arrows. There is only one school here that uses a Mooney for Commercial and complex training
 
For awhile, Mooney offered a stripped down 201. It was the 201AT. I think Riddle had some.

FWIW, I got my commercial in a M20G and rented a great M20K model out of Torrance back in the 1980's.

The sad truth in today's world is that you're lucky to find an Arrow or a Cutlass. The rental fleet isn't what it used to be.

It's not that you can't use a Mooney, it's just there are so few for rent. I think Mooneyspace has a listing.
 
Insurance might be an issue too. I've rented from flight schools that had a Mooney or Bonanza, but they required 25 and 50 hours in type respectively. I think a lot of folks looking to get a Complex/HP checkout would like to have an opportunity to rent the plane on their own afterwards, and 25 hours, let alone 50, is pretty hard to stomach. It's a lot easier to meet the more typical 5 hour requirement for a 172RG or Arrow.
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't remember Mooney's ever being rented other than as an extreme rarity, and my aviation memory goes back to the late 60's.
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There's still a handful around the country for rent.
http://www.mooneyevents.com/rent.htm

I got my time in an M20K 231 at a place at PNE (Hortman). This is going back 10 years until someone had a forced off airport landing and totaled it. The pilot walked away from it, luckily.

It was a great value at the time in terms of speed:gph due to its awesome speed. But I would never advocate using it as a trainer....
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't remember Mooney's ever being rented other than as an extreme rarity, and my aviation memory goes back to the late 60's.
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You must've forgotten about the one Stan had available at Freeway.
 
deltaindia said:
There's still a handful around the country for rent.
http://www.mooneyevents.com/rent.htm

I got my time in an M20K 231 at a place at PNE (Hortman). This is going back 10 years until someone had a forced off airport landing and totaled it. The pilot walked away from it, luckily.

It was a great value at the time in terms of speed:gph due to its awesome speed. But I would never advocate using it as a trainer....
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That list is sooooooo old, it still list the one that USED to be on the line at Freeway (W00)
 
Where is the flight school? What elevation, particularly.

The 182RG should be in the mix if the Arrow is. The 182RG can be used for training and also can still be rented by members for actual XCs, as could the Arrow of course. The 182 is built like a tank and very stable IFR and easy to land due to high-wing. Also the high wing would have advantages for many of the commercial ground reference maneuvers. Compared to the 172RG, the 182RG also allows for faster approach speeds and, more important, better climb rates which are preferable for your commercial/instrument folks who climb up and down a lot. The 172RG will drag its butt halfway across the state climbing for approaches around here.

The 172 RG "Cutlass" is known as the Gutless because it's underpowered. The one I flew could barely haul its butt off the ground (and we flew it from KAPA to Leadville climbing 200 fpm!? :no: )
 
petrolero said:
The 182RG should be in the mix if the Arrow is. The 182RG can be used for training and also can still be rented by members for actual XCs, as could the Arrow of course. The 182 is built like a tank and very stable IFR and easy to land due to high-wing.
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The Arrow is a piece of cake to land, too. In fact, that old Hershey Bar wing is finished flying when the mains touch down. I have never bounced a landing in the Arrow (unlike the 172). Now, I will admit that I've had some "arrivals" that registered on nearby seismographs. :D
 
Ghery said:
The Arrow is a piece of cake to land, too. In fact, that old Hershey Bar wing is finished flying when the mains touch down. I have never bounced a landing in the Arrow (unlike the 172). Now, I will admit that I've had some "arrivals" that registered on nearby seismographs. :D
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My DE on my IR ride did a "full currency" landing at the end ("Nothing in the PTS says you need to land, I've got it.").:rofl: he said "What are you laughing about? I haven't signed your ticket yet." "I'm laughing because in the last week, neither Steve or I have managed a decent landing."
 
Ghery said:
The Arrow is a piece of cake to land, too. In fact, that old Hershey Bar wing is finished flying when the mains touch down. I have never bounced a landing in the Arrow (unlike the 172). Now, I will admit that I've had some "arrivals" that registered on nearby seismographs. :D
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Yep. It's easy if you approach at the right speed. It likes to float a lot with too much speed and drop like a rock if you chop the power.
 
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