Complex & high performance endorsement, can they be done together?

James Darren

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James Darren
Hi all,

If you're in a Cessna 182RG, can you do your complex & high performance endorsements together?

And if so, how many hours does it usually take to do them together?
 
Definitely and many do just that. I did mine in a B-tail Bo. A lot of CFIs will take 10 hrs to do it (knocking out the Commercial retract requirement in the process), if you aren't intending to do the commercial later on, you should be able to get the endorsement done in a lot less.
 
Thanks. At this stage I'm looking to do my high performance endorsement which most say is about 5 hours. And doing them both is about double so I guess there isn't much benefit in terms of price doing them together?...
 
Thanks. At this stage I'm looking to do my high performance endorsement which most say is about 5 hours. And doing them both is about double so I guess there isn't much benefit in terms of price doing them together?...

Why is doing them both double? If you aren't trying to meet the 10 he commercial retract requirement, you should be able to do both simultaneously within 5.

The HP endorsement is mostly about right rudder/trim and engine management. Fairly easy.
 
Jiminy crickets...do them both at the same time since you have the chance.

As Fearless says, the HP endorsement is straight forward...mine took 2-3 IIRC hours and that was a lot of talking on the ground before we flew...
 
and that's how it use to be done....before the rule change.

They were always done together.....
 
I did mine separately only because my Mooney does not have "more than 200 hp" required for the HP endorsement. Picked it up later doing a Flight Review in a 182.

Do yours together, should add very little time to the Complex as you'll be doing everything in a HP plane.
 
Hi all,

If you're in a Cessna 182RG, can you do your complex & high performance endorsements together?

And if so, how many hours does it usually take to do them together?

If someone is suggesting doing them separately in that plane , they're trying to fleece you. With the endorsement and at least a PP if they won't sign you off for solo, that's another clue.
 
in an appropriate airplane, with good effort on the part of the student, I'd be comfortable in giving the endorsements in 5 hours of flight and probably 3-5 hours of ground.
 
and that's how it use to be done....before the rule change.

They were always done together.....
Not quite. Before 1997, there was only one endorsement, called "high performance", which you could get in either a complex plane or an over-200 HP plane, and it was good in both. So, you could get that endorsement in a fixed-gear C-182 and be good to go for a plane with retractable gear, too. Took the FAA a few years to realize that was a bad idea and split the endorsements. Only problem is they didn't come up with a new name for over-200HP. As a result, a pre-97 HP endorsement earned in an Arrow is not valid for what we call a "high performance" airplane today (an engine over 200HP) unless you got some PIC time in an over-200HP plane before 8/4/97 -- and that has confused more than one unsuspecting pilot.
 
all these years.....maybe I need a new endorsement? :eek:
Well, I had one guy show up for IR training in his 300HP retractable Piper Lance in 2007 with only a pre-97 high performance endorsement earned in an Arrow in the early 90's -- and no over-200HP time until he'd bought the Lance in 2003. The instructor who trained him in the Lance didn't realize what had happened, and did not give him a post-97 HP endorsement as part of the checkout, so when he came to me, he'd been flying his plane illegally for four years. Needless to say, he had a proper post-97 HP endorsement from me in his logbook before we were done, so he was legal from then on, but he was fortunate nothing bad had happened in the interim to bring either FAA or insurance company scrutiny of his logbook.
 
Yep, I did my HP endorsement in the T-arrow a few months before I got my Navion (1995).
Since the Navion was both HP and Complex, I had the requisite PIC time in the book.
(Frankly, I had it anyhow, because I'd flow several fixed gear 200+ HP: 180, 182, and a 235HP Maule).
 
Did my complex in Piper Arrow and high performance in 182 so learned two new aircraft lin about 10 hours for both combined.
 
Id wager quite a few people do them together, many complex planes are over 200hp, that's what I did in a 172XP seaplane.

Id guess, if you're current and a good stick, 5hrs or so.

You can save yourself some money by reading the POH before meeting up with the CFI, get your speeds, capacities, burn rates, and other memory items down and get your head wrapped around how the prop, fuel and other systems work, when you leave the cowl flaps open, etc.


Have fun.
 
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Id guess, if you're current and a good stick, 5hrs or so.
Just remember that you can earn a complex endorsement in a lot less time than that with which an insurer will be satisfied. You may still find you need more time with the renting agency's instructor before you're allowed to take the plane by yourself. For people buying something like a Bonanza without previous retractable time, it's not uncommon to see their insurer require 10 hours with an instructor and another 15 hours solo before carrying passengers in order to avoid staggeringly high premiums.
 
That's just the amount of time I've seen it takes for most guys to have a solid grip on it.

As for the insurance, that a whole nother topic
 
I had a check out in an C-182RG before 1990....so it should be good. :eek:
Well, I had one guy show up for IR training in his 300HP retractable Piper Lance in 2007 with only a pre-97 high performance endorsement earned in an Arrow in the early 90's -- and no over-200HP time until he'd bought the Lance in 2003. The instructor who trained him in the Lance didn't realize what had happened, and did not give him a post-97 HP endorsement as part of the checkout, so when he came to me, he'd been flying his plane illegally for four years. Needless to say, he had a proper post-97 HP endorsement from me in his logbook before we were done, so he was legal from then on, but he was fortunate nothing bad had happened in the interim to bring either FAA or insurance company scrutiny of his logbook.
 
thats a lot of time to learn how to work the gear and blue knobs and say gumps on final. lol

Depends how much other instruction is going on. If the guy needs to learn how to handle a heavier, faster aircraft in addition to working the few extra knobs it can take longer. If he's accustomed to just pulling the knob out and throwing the airplane at the runway without touching trim or planning the approach ahead, it can take longer.
 
thats a lot of time to learn how to work the gear and blue knobs and say gumps on final. lol

Says all the planes landed gear up....


Takes more than a hour or two to trip up a student, and for the RG aspect that's what you need, get him on short finial, call out go-around, then point to the gear selector.

Plus being able to really use the CS and cowl flaps vs just operate it, that a couple hours.

So yeah, Id quote 5hrs, if the dude picks it up in 3 cool, but Id wager it would be closer to 5. Many insurance companies have that 5-10hr dual requirement based on years after years of constant stats.


Here is a good one

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5McECUtM8fw

Here is a better one

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ObLQnY5fDU8


I run my flows, confirm with my checklist, then I have my short final sight picture where I run a final GUMPS check. Run all checks aloud, and touch everything you're checking.
 
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Just remember that you can earn a complex endorsement in a lot less time than that with which an insurer will be satisfied. You may still find you need more time with the renting agency's instructor before you're allowed to take the plane by yourself. For people buying something like a Bonanza without previous retractable time, it's not uncommon to see their insurer require 10 hours with an instructor and another 15 hours solo before carrying passengers in order to avoid staggeringly high premiums.

My insurance requirement was 5/5
 
Says all the planes landed gear up....


Takes more than a hour or two to trip up a student, and for the RG aspect that's what you need, get him on short finial, call out go-around, then point to the gear selector.

Plus being able to really use the CS and cowl flaps vs just operate it, that a couple hours.

So yeah, Id quote 5hrs, if the dude picks it up in 3 cool, but Id wager it would be closer to 5. Many insurance companies have that 5-10hr dual based on some year after hear constant stats.


Here is a good one

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5McECUtM8fw

Here is a better one

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ObLQnY5fDU8


I run my flows, confirm with my checklist, then I have my short final sight picture where I run a final GUMPS check. Run all checks aloud, and touch everything you're checking.

the insurance or fbo mandate dual hours is another animal, but five to ten hours to learn the levers is imho overkill.
 
the insurance or fbo mandate dual hours is another animal, but five to ten hours to learn the levers is imho overkill.

Take a guy with 65hrs in a 150 and drop him in a V35... It takes a minute. Between the taxiing, run ups, ground stuff. Your going to easily pay for 5 to 10 hrs of CFI time.

Learning 2 or three new levers takes about 15 minutes...max.
 
the insurance or fbo mandate dual hours is another animal, but five to ten hours to learn the levers is imho overkill.

Learn levers eh?

Flying a twin is just a few extra levers,

The turbine I fly has the same amount of levers as a 182, don't even need to worry about mixture, guess anyone who can fly a 182RG should be able to just jump in and go eh :dunno:


Flying a plane ain't linear, 1 & 0s, on/off lever pulling.
 
Says all the planes landed gear up....


Takes more than a hour or two to trip up a student, and for the RG aspect that's what you need, get him on short finial, call out go-around, then point to the gear selector.

Plus being able to really use the CS and cowl flaps vs just operate it, that a couple hours.

So yeah, Id quote 5hrs, if the dude picks it up in 3 cool, but Id wager it would be closer to 5. Many insurance companies have that 5-10hr dual requirement based on years after years of constant stats.


Here is a good one

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5McECUtM8fw

Here is a better one

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ObLQnY5fDU8


I run my flows, confirm with my checklist, then I have my short final sight picture where I run a final GUMPS check. Run all checks aloud, and touch everything you're checking.
You can't fix stupid. :no:
 
Learn levers eh?

Flying a twin is just a few extra levers,

The turbine I fly has the same amount of levers as a 182, don't even need to worry about mixture, guess anyone who can fly a 182RG should be able to just jump in and go eh :dunno:


Flying a plane ain't linear, 1 & 0s, on/off lever pulling.

obviously, we arent talking about twin or turbine transition. again, different beasts than learning how to raise the gear in a 182rg or steping up from a 172 or similar to an arrow.
 
the insurance or fbo mandate dual hours is another animal, but five to ten hours to learn the levers is imho overkill.
Learning 2 or three new levers takes about 15 minutes...max.
If "learn[ing] the levers" was all that was involved, I might agree, but it isn't, so I don't. The instructor has to be convinced that the pilot not only knows what the levers do, but applies that knowledge correctly and consistently in all reasonably foreseeable circumstances. That takes a lot more than 15 minutes.
 
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If "learn[ing] the levers" was all that was involved, I might agree, but it isn't, so I don't. The instructor has to be convinced that the pilot not only knows what the levers do, but applies that knowledge correctly and consistently in all reasonably foreseeable circumstances. That takes a lot more than 15 minutes.


That.

And moving a low time PPL up from a 172 to a 182RG, Arrow, Bo, etc is a jump.
 
My insurance requirement was 5/5
When I did my Commercial training in the Arrow, my instructor said I was ready to solo it in it when I had about2-3 hours but we needed 10 hours of dual due to insurance.
 
the insurance or fbo mandate dual hours is another animal, but five to ten hours to learn the levers is imho overkill.
It's a lot more than learning levers IMO. Whenever I get in a new plane, I always get a POH and read up. Flying is a lot more than just flying. You have to put in the ground and study the airplane
 
It's a lot more than learning levers IMO. Whenever I get in a new plane, I always get a POH and read up. Flying is a lot more than just flying. You have to put in the ground and study the airplane

There was nothing to read when I bought my airplane....I'm doooomed!
 
To get a complex endorsement from me the student has to show appropriate knowledge of the constant speed prop, and that takes a bit of time. Same for the various types of retractable gear. Im not teaching him his airplane, I'm teaching him systems knowledge first, then we apply it to the airplane we'te flying

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 
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