Complex Endorsement

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by mcarlini, Jun 22, 2011.

  1. mcarlini

    mcarlini Pre-Flight

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    Just wondering what reading/study materials I should be reviewing for when I train for my complex endorsement. I don't really know what to expect-- all the FAR/AIM seems to say is that I need ground and flight training, but nothing specific. Any input would be great! Thank you
     
  2. markb5900

    markb5900 Line Up and Wait

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    Read up on constant speed props and retractable landing gear systems.
    If you understand them, then you are ready for the endorsement.
     
  3. ajstoner21

    ajstoner21 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Hey!

    Read Chapter 11 of the "Airplane Flying Handbook"

    Free online at:
    http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/airplane_handbook/

    I'm sure you're already familiar with flaps, but pay particular attention to how the prop is controlled (Constant speed prop/variable pitch prop - you will have a blue prop control knob/lever between your throttle and mixture)

    Be sure to read up on how the landing gear system works. What kind of safety features are in place (squat switch?)? What keeps the gear up? What are the emergency methods of gear extension/retraction? What an engine failure do to you as far as gear extension goes?


    If you know the airplane you'll be using, read the systems section of the POH really well. Understand all the different flight profiles (what prop setting and manifold pressure for cruise climb? cruise? landing?)

    A lot of the complex training, is definitely knowledge, but if you can explain how the systems work to your instructor, and demonstrate your knowledge by successfully demonstrating you understand how to operate the airplane, you should be good to go!
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2011
  4. Artiom

    Artiom Pre-takeoff checklist

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  5. Richard

    Richard Final Approach

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    Mark said exactly what I would say. This is an endorsement for operating COMPLEX systems. Study the M&M of the aircraft you are likely to fly. Go to the mechanics for the source of information. They have the bulletins and manuals you'll want. Be nice when making your request.

    It is an easy and brief endorsement. The FAA junk is best reserved for a secondary source of knowledge.

    BTW: my CFI had less knowledge than I did. My source: copies of schematics from the A&P. CFI could've perhaps been more wrong but sheesh, I was paying him for that tripe?
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2011
  6. Rob Schaffer

    Rob Schaffer Cleared for Takeoff

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    Good thread, thanks for sharing the information. I may need to start reading up in the near future to get this add-on.
     
  7. SkyHog

    SkyHog Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Its pretty easy, but definitely know your stuff going in! Studying the airplane's AFM or POH will give you most of what you need to know.

    There are some theory ideas that won't be covered in the book, though - like judgment calls over when to land gear up and when to land gear down in an off-field landing. Just give it some thought, and your answers will be correct.
     
  8. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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    I'll be doing this soon. Need to re-read Pelican Perch and AFM. I'm transitioning from C172 to DA40 (CS) & M20J (Cplx). (YAAAAAAAY!)
     
  9. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    There aren't any specific requirements for what is covered in high performance and complex endorsements.

    I'd basically want to do some takeoffs and landings for high performance to understand the differences there (pretty simple), and for a complex I'd want to do takeoff, adjust to climb power, adjust to cruise power, descent, landing, repeat.

    For the ground school, I would cover the differences between each aircraft and what the pilot was used to, function of constant-speed props, how to increase or decrease power, and (most importantly): GEAR DOWN!
     
  10. Flyparrothead

    Flyparrothead Pre-Flight

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    Definetely understand how a constant speed propeller works. From my experience, most pilots who have a complex endorsement still don't understand the basic theory behind the c.s.p.
     
  11. Arbiter419

    Arbiter419 Cleared for Takeoff

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    The only thing I'll add to the thread is you'll probably be expected to know the emergency procedures and systems and stuff related to that, i.e. emergency gear extension.
     
  12. upstateny

    upstateny Line Up and Wait

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    Although it's not part of the complex endorsement, know something about cowl flaps too if they're on the plane you're using. Most people who have only trained in 152/172's have never seen them before.
     
  13. Ghery

    Ghery Final Approach

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    10 hours dual in the Arrow to get mine. Did I need 10 hours? No, but the club's insurance required 10 hours dual and 100 hours TT before solo, so that's how it worked for me. We worked on other things while burning the hours, too. Now have to deal with the requirement that you fly it at least 3 hours in the preceding 180 days or get signed off again. Last time I went up with a CFI I had to keep slapping her hand to keep her away from the light dimmer that knocked out the green gear down lights. That was the only "failure to extend" that she could simulate. I've had a CB pop in that plane that actually kept the gear from going down, but once we reset it, all worked well. And if you do your complex in an Arrow, the final emergency extention system is dirt simple. Push the lever, blow hydraulic pressure holding the gear up and down it comes, faster than the hydraulics lower it normally. Now, if the 182 wasn't faster and more comfortable I'd fly the Arrow more. :D
     
  14. Sac Arrow

    Sac Arrow Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You might as well knock out your high performance endorsement at the same time if you are getting a complex endorsement, if that's an option. I got signed off in a Bonanza.
     
  15. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I don't need no stinking endorsement.
     
  16. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    What kinds of airplanes have you flown, and what kind of airplane will you be getting the complex endorsement in?

    Ugh. As usual, the FAA material is dry, somewhat difficult for a newbie to understand, and doesn't really give you a good picture of what's going on.

    I was gonna say this, but it must have been good advice the last time I gave it, so I don't have to: ;)

    Yup. I didn't really "get" C/S props until I read that... I just blindly repeated the good old FAA line about "throttle controls manifold pressure, prop controls rpm, blah blah blah..."
     
  17. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Midfield...gear down....check lights.
    Abeam numbers...power, flaps, check gear down.
    Base turn...check gear down
    Flaps...check gear down.
    Turn to final...check gear down.
    Final...power, flaps, check gear down
    short final....check gear down
    over the numbers...check gear down

    Yes, I call it out that often, and I freak out when instructing in the fixed gear because there's no lights to check!
     
  18. AdamZ

    AdamZ Administrator Management Council Member

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    Ya think:rolleyes::fcross:
     
  19. TripleZ

    TripleZ Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Got my interest peaked. Picked up a POH for the local FBOs Arrow, and signed up for a lesson on Monday. Complex here I come.
     
  20. spiderweb

    spiderweb Final Approach

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    Getting a complex endorsement is easy. The main idea is to understand the aircraft you're flying. For example, if you're flying a C182RG after having flown a C182, there's just one more lil' thing you need to think about. (It might be just one thing, but you BETTER remember it!). But if you're going from a C172 to a Saratoga, you've got some reading and ground time to do!
     
  21. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    I like your style. ;)

    I bet that YouTube video of those guys who land a 182RG on the belly with the gear horn blaring throughout, just makes your skin crawl too?

    I've watched that thing like 20 times and every time I want to throw something at my monitor to hit the idiots jibber-jabbering in the front seats in the head with.
     
  22. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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    link?
     
  23. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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  24. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    Damn. I had to watch it again.

    Loved the new comment on YouTube. "Maybe he thought it was the most annoying outer marker ever!". ROFL!
     
  25. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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    Totally unnecessary. Was high on turn to final...yhe sign of a rushed approach
     
  26. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Not really. Had the gear been down, he would have it in/before the TDZ.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2011
  27. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6e3n1RYvsI
     
  28. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    That's why I only fly straight floats...:D
     
  29. TripleZ

    TripleZ Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Flew an Arrow last night for the start of my complex endorsement. Insurance requires 10hrs of training, so that's what I'm in it for.

    Not sure I'm sold on the low wing. Heavy yoke inputs, which makes it a stable airplane, but it takes getting used to after the Skyhawk and Citabria. Love the constant speed prop and retractable gear though. We climbed out and were cruising in no time.
     
  30. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Heaviness of the yoke isn't due to high or low wing. Go fly a 182, it's got a very heavy yoke compared to the Arrow.

    Have fun with the endorsement! :yes:
     
  31. Artiom

    Artiom Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Went out today to get my high performance endorsement in C182. After takeoff and clim to 4000ft oil presure was below green zone. We checked out AFM and it didn't day anything useful. Oil tempreture was OK so we did a couple of stalls and slow flying. When it come to TGs the CFI asked what do I think - should we keep going or land and have mechanic inspecting the plane. I said as PIC I will not take a chance and will land and finish up the checkout when plane is ready. Better be safe the sorry.
    Word of caution - don't do high performance checkout if tou are planning to fly C172 ever. I warned you!
     
  32. Richard

    Richard Final Approach

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    :confused:
     
  33. Arbiter419

    Arbiter419 Cleared for Takeoff

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    :confused::confused:
     
  34. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    If I were to guess, I would say he is saying that if you do HP or Complex, you won't WANT to go back to a 172. There is some validity to that, but the price differential makes a 172 pretty attractive to me.
     
  35. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    A 182 with only an instructor and student on board will jump off the runway and scream to pattern altitude. The 172 is going to be like driving the Country Squire after that.
     
  36. Artiom

    Artiom Pre-takeoff checklist

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    That's the right guess. After discovering all that extra HPs, faster speed and comfort of the bigger airplane it is hard to go back to C172. in the place I rent they charge $105 for C172N with Garmin 430 GPS ($100 with no GPS) and $130 for C182 with no GPS and old panel. So $/mile C182 is equal to C172 but gets you to the destination faster with more payload. I'm planning to get IFR rating at some point. For training C172 will be better option.
     
  37. Dustin

    Dustin Pre-takeoff checklist

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    At this point, I would be happy to fly a Piper Tomahawk again, lol. An Arrow or 172 would be even better.
     
  38. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    A Cherokee or 172 is really about the best trainer that you can get for the instrument rating. You have enough speed and capability that it's about the smallest/slowest practical IFR aircraft out there. That's a good thing, because it's cost-effective and things don't happen as fast. Typically when starting IR training, even a 172 or Cherokee feels like it's going really fast. :)
     
  39. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    There is so much truth to that.....I did my IR rating and checkride in a PA28 and thought it was just the perfect speed at reduced power settings on the approach. Nowadays, if I fly a 172 or PA28 IFR, I'm usually close to FT for most of the approach and still feel like I'm twiddling my thumbs.
     
  40. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That's kinda how it was for me. After joining the club, I started flying the 182 for longer trips, and when my preferred Archer was down for several months for engine work (first a bad cam and then a prop strike) I got to know the 182 well enough that I got used to 130+ knots, good climb performance, etc.

    Now, my order of preference is DA40, C182, Archer. Because we have such excellent availability in the club, I always get my preference (since we got the DA40, I've only flown the 182 three times, and that was because I either needed to haul more weight than the DA40 could handle, or I was going into rough grass strips).

    Sure, the DA40 and the 182 cost more per hour, but when all is said and done I use airplanes to go places, and the cost per mile is pretty much identical, if not even favoring the faster birds a little. Having the extra room in the cockpit, Garmin G1000 or 430W and a nice 2-axis autopilot is icing on the cake.

    So, I know exactly how Artiom feels. It's hard to go back to a PA28 or 172 when you've made the transition to something bigger and/or faster.